In the 2004 SAIL article on Catalina and its two production facilities, it was mentioned that a variety of hull-deck joints were used depending on the model. We're curious what joint type the C34 MkII is built with and would welcome not only a generic description (e.g. 'shoebox joint') but the details on how it's fastened, if that's possible. Many thanks! Jack
Hull-Deck joint on C34?
- Thread starter Jack Tyler
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Why?
Jack, why do you need to know? You don't own a C-34. I am reasonably sure you aren't in the market for any Catalina based on your often stated opinions on Catalinas. Is this by chance connected to the Hunter Marine discussion on the SSCA board? Just thought I would ask.
Jack, why do you need to know? You don't own a C-34. I am reasonably sure you aren't in the market for any Catalina based on your often stated opinions on Catalinas. Is this by chance connected to the Hunter Marine discussion on the SSCA board? Just thought I would ask.
'Need' vs. 'Want'...
Hi, Rodney - I recognize your name from the SSCA Board. Perhaps it will surprise you that I've recommended Catalinas to a number of folks who email me; I think they are great value for some cruising applications and I especially think there's value in an active owners group which can support newer sailors/ownersl. Sometimes this is a primary reason for my recommendation. WRT your question, we won't be sailing in Europe indefinitely and are talking about two scenarios that might be in our future: placing a boat in Scandinavia for 3 or 4 years and doing seasonal sailing there, or doing some more sailing in American waters we've yet to see or see enough of (the BC/U.S. NW area is one, SoCal to Mexico is another). I think a Catalina is capable of cruising in all those venues and, especially WRT Scandinavia, we concluded that an 11M boat is about the biggest we'd want to use there. WHOOSH was simply too big for many of the small harbor basins and too expensive to haul & store in the winters. We've actually cruised with several Catalinas up there, and they would be available from Euro dealers without paying VAT, if documented back to the USA at the time of purchase. So...that's what led me to Stu Jackson, who in turn referred me to the C34 owners site and also this source for more info not covered in the C34 Tech Notes, which the hull-deck joint is not. Finally, don't overlook the fact that I'm cruising another 'production boat', in our case a Pearson 424. If you read my posts carefully, I think you'll find that what I challenge is the notion that a Catalina or any other high volume production boat can be placed into an Offshore Cruising category that's all-encompassing. Like our boat, it needs to be used thoughtfully and IMO is more suitable for only some offshore, in-season, low-latitude sailing rather than unlimited, off-season, and high latitude sailing. If you look on the other Catalina forum, you'll notice I found a description of a C30 hull-deck joint, tho' that may be different from the C34. how about your Catalina? How is your joint fabricated? Jack
Hi, Rodney - I recognize your name from the SSCA Board. Perhaps it will surprise you that I've recommended Catalinas to a number of folks who email me; I think they are great value for some cruising applications and I especially think there's value in an active owners group which can support newer sailors/ownersl. Sometimes this is a primary reason for my recommendation. WRT your question, we won't be sailing in Europe indefinitely and are talking about two scenarios that might be in our future: placing a boat in Scandinavia for 3 or 4 years and doing seasonal sailing there, or doing some more sailing in American waters we've yet to see or see enough of (the BC/U.S. NW area is one, SoCal to Mexico is another). I think a Catalina is capable of cruising in all those venues and, especially WRT Scandinavia, we concluded that an 11M boat is about the biggest we'd want to use there. WHOOSH was simply too big for many of the small harbor basins and too expensive to haul & store in the winters. We've actually cruised with several Catalinas up there, and they would be available from Euro dealers without paying VAT, if documented back to the USA at the time of purchase. So...that's what led me to Stu Jackson, who in turn referred me to the C34 owners site and also this source for more info not covered in the C34 Tech Notes, which the hull-deck joint is not. Finally, don't overlook the fact that I'm cruising another 'production boat', in our case a Pearson 424. If you read my posts carefully, I think you'll find that what I challenge is the notion that a Catalina or any other high volume production boat can be placed into an Offshore Cruising category that's all-encompassing. Like our boat, it needs to be used thoughtfully and IMO is more suitable for only some offshore, in-season, low-latitude sailing rather than unlimited, off-season, and high latitude sailing. If you look on the other Catalina forum, you'll notice I found a description of a C30 hull-deck joint, tho' that may be different from the C34. how about your Catalina? How is your joint fabricated? Jack
Hull to Deck Joint
Jack, Wow, not the response I expected from you... LOL. As I understand it, and I have read the article which you refer to, no Catalina's have an outward turning deck flange. During a tour of the Woodland Hills factory last summer, per our tour guide, all of the Catalina's built in Woodland Hills have the shoe box type of joint where the deck fits down over the outside of the hull structure. The fasteners pass through the aluminum rub rail, through the deck flange, through the hull, and finally through the interior liner. A nut and fender washer are fitted. A rubber insert fitted into the aluminum rub rail extrusion covers the fastener heads. Again, per the factory tour guide, all Catalinas 25' and above are through bolted on at least 12" centers max. This would include the C-34. Keep in mind that a lot of Catalina models such as the 30 have had very long production runs and Catalina is one of the very best at listening to their customers and constantly improving their products. For instance, I know that early C-30s had self tapping screws with a plywood "shear clamp" securing the joint but now they are through bolted. Catalina builds its 310, 350, 387, 400, 470, and 50 in Florida. Of those, the 400, the new 440, and 470 have an inward turning hull flange to which the deck is through bolted through an aluminum perforated toe rail. The other Florida built boats, IIRC, are the external shoebox type of joint. Both types of joints are bedded copious quantities of a modern adhesive/bedding compound (unspecified). If you have been haunting the various Catalina model websites, there are very few hull to deck leak complaints or issues. My 42 is also the external shoebox type of joint and is indeed through bolted with 5/16th fasteners. No problems there at all. BTW, the Catalina Cruiser Hall of Fame has existed for years documented in the lobby of the Woodland Hills factory. Stu is a good source and has his boat in the neighboring marina to my location. Hope that helps, Rodney S/V Sashay - K6YOT SF Bay P.S. On another SSCA topic, you asked if anyone had AIS working. I have AIS working aboard Sashay and would be glad to fill you in on the details.
Jack, Wow, not the response I expected from you... LOL. As I understand it, and I have read the article which you refer to, no Catalina's have an outward turning deck flange. During a tour of the Woodland Hills factory last summer, per our tour guide, all of the Catalina's built in Woodland Hills have the shoe box type of joint where the deck fits down over the outside of the hull structure. The fasteners pass through the aluminum rub rail, through the deck flange, through the hull, and finally through the interior liner. A nut and fender washer are fitted. A rubber insert fitted into the aluminum rub rail extrusion covers the fastener heads. Again, per the factory tour guide, all Catalinas 25' and above are through bolted on at least 12" centers max. This would include the C-34. Keep in mind that a lot of Catalina models such as the 30 have had very long production runs and Catalina is one of the very best at listening to their customers and constantly improving their products. For instance, I know that early C-30s had self tapping screws with a plywood "shear clamp" securing the joint but now they are through bolted. Catalina builds its 310, 350, 387, 400, 470, and 50 in Florida. Of those, the 400, the new 440, and 470 have an inward turning hull flange to which the deck is through bolted through an aluminum perforated toe rail. The other Florida built boats, IIRC, are the external shoebox type of joint. Both types of joints are bedded copious quantities of a modern adhesive/bedding compound (unspecified). If you have been haunting the various Catalina model websites, there are very few hull to deck leak complaints or issues. My 42 is also the external shoebox type of joint and is indeed through bolted with 5/16th fasteners. No problems there at all. BTW, the Catalina Cruiser Hall of Fame has existed for years documented in the lobby of the Woodland Hills factory. Stu is a good source and has his boat in the neighboring marina to my location. Hope that helps, Rodney S/V Sashay - K6YOT SF Bay P.S. On another SSCA topic, you asked if anyone had AIS working. I have AIS working aboard Sashay and would be glad to fill you in on the details.
Rodney, thanks and...
...I found your description of Catalina's shoebox joint both helpful and affirming. The use of machine screws & nuts, and positive mechanical fastening, clearly makes more sense than the mechanical attachment described by Jack Horner; perhaps his is a more historical than contemporary description. I know Kimball Livingston a bit (the author of SAIL's article on touring the CA Catalina factory) and find him informed and a pretty diligent correspondent, so I'm not sure how he came to report that a variety of joint designs are used when your tour guide described it differently. Now that I think about it, I'll email Kimball and inquire. It's a small point (from the perspective of a journalist, covering an entire factory) but perhaps he can shed some light on the discrepancy. I'm still unimpressed with a joint design which turns the joint into the defacto rubrail of the boat, and think C's move to an inward flange/vertical fastening is far more sensible. Since almost all Catalinas are being used in NA marina settings, it's easy to believe that most owners find the joint problem-free and the factory therefore concludes it holds up acceptably. OTOH I've known a few C owners who have suffered a sprung joint, just as Horner describes. (One of the many issues faced by true offshore cruising boats is how suitable owners find them when used in the less developed world. We berthed next to a C400 owner from CA when in Jamaica, and he had several stories along this line; seeing rusty bolts sticking out of piles, looking for the boat's hull ports, was scaring the whole crew). The reason I sought out info on this design issue in particular results from our N European cruising last season. Locks are often very large and some will mix ships with boat. They were a common occurrence in some areas (crossing Sweden, one passes thru 58 locks, if you can imagine...). Fuel docks often offer pilings vs. a vertical wall which fenders can protect you from (altho' most fuel 'docks' are in fact fuel barges, just like the one next to the marina we are in at the moment), tidal streams can enter into the equation, and winds in N Europe can occasionally be stiff and gusty. For these reasons, any C34's deck joint is going to occasionally be used, inevitably, as her rub rail despite any preferences we may have! I'll hop over to the correct Forum and put a note in the thread I later started there, moving folks to this one in case they're interested. Thanks again for the coaching; very helpful. Jack
...I found your description of Catalina's shoebox joint both helpful and affirming. The use of machine screws & nuts, and positive mechanical fastening, clearly makes more sense than the mechanical attachment described by Jack Horner; perhaps his is a more historical than contemporary description. I know Kimball Livingston a bit (the author of SAIL's article on touring the CA Catalina factory) and find him informed and a pretty diligent correspondent, so I'm not sure how he came to report that a variety of joint designs are used when your tour guide described it differently. Now that I think about it, I'll email Kimball and inquire. It's a small point (from the perspective of a journalist, covering an entire factory) but perhaps he can shed some light on the discrepancy. I'm still unimpressed with a joint design which turns the joint into the defacto rubrail of the boat, and think C's move to an inward flange/vertical fastening is far more sensible. Since almost all Catalinas are being used in NA marina settings, it's easy to believe that most owners find the joint problem-free and the factory therefore concludes it holds up acceptably. OTOH I've known a few C owners who have suffered a sprung joint, just as Horner describes. (One of the many issues faced by true offshore cruising boats is how suitable owners find them when used in the less developed world. We berthed next to a C400 owner from CA when in Jamaica, and he had several stories along this line; seeing rusty bolts sticking out of piles, looking for the boat's hull ports, was scaring the whole crew). The reason I sought out info on this design issue in particular results from our N European cruising last season. Locks are often very large and some will mix ships with boat. They were a common occurrence in some areas (crossing Sweden, one passes thru 58 locks, if you can imagine...). Fuel docks often offer pilings vs. a vertical wall which fenders can protect you from (altho' most fuel 'docks' are in fact fuel barges, just like the one next to the marina we are in at the moment), tidal streams can enter into the equation, and winds in N Europe can occasionally be stiff and gusty. For these reasons, any C34's deck joint is going to occasionally be used, inevitably, as her rub rail despite any preferences we may have! I'll hop over to the correct Forum and put a note in the thread I later started there, moving folks to this one in case they're interested. Thanks again for the coaching; very helpful. Jack
Rub Rail/Deck Joint
Jack, you are quite right in that the joint does become the defacto rub rail. That being said, the laminate schedule produces a very thick deck flange. My 42 has the hull mounted portlights (2 on the starboard side, 1 one port) and I am quite "sensitive" about those portlights. Also, when fastened in this manner, the mechanical fasteners are in shear rather than tension. Fasteners are much stronger when under tension loads than shear loads. The inward turning hull flange eliminates this problem. In the case of my 42, this would explain the 5/16th fasteners rather than the more common 1/4-20. That being said, the discussion over on the SSCA board was more oriented to ocean sailing rather than the wear and tear while docking and locking in 3rd world countries. From that standpoint, the Catalina hull to deck joint has proven to be adaquate. Your example of the C-34 sailed in Hawaii mentions that the hull to deck joint was trouble free. Jack Horner's review does not mention the year of the C-30 but Catalina does not just blindly churn out boats year after year. There are improvements added on the line often within the same model year. I have personally confirmed that newer C-30s have a through bolted hull/deck connection. As far as Kimball's description, I think a careful reading of his article will reveal that he is referring to the shoebox joint where the deck fits over the outside of the hull structure as an "external flange". Probably just semantics. Where is the other forum you refer to? Rodney S/V Sashay - K6YOT SF Bay
Jack, you are quite right in that the joint does become the defacto rub rail. That being said, the laminate schedule produces a very thick deck flange. My 42 has the hull mounted portlights (2 on the starboard side, 1 one port) and I am quite "sensitive" about those portlights. Also, when fastened in this manner, the mechanical fasteners are in shear rather than tension. Fasteners are much stronger when under tension loads than shear loads. The inward turning hull flange eliminates this problem. In the case of my 42, this would explain the 5/16th fasteners rather than the more common 1/4-20. That being said, the discussion over on the SSCA board was more oriented to ocean sailing rather than the wear and tear while docking and locking in 3rd world countries. From that standpoint, the Catalina hull to deck joint has proven to be adaquate. Your example of the C-34 sailed in Hawaii mentions that the hull to deck joint was trouble free. Jack Horner's review does not mention the year of the C-30 but Catalina does not just blindly churn out boats year after year. There are improvements added on the line often within the same model year. I have personally confirmed that newer C-30s have a through bolted hull/deck connection. As far as Kimball's description, I think a careful reading of his article will reveal that he is referring to the shoebox joint where the deck fits over the outside of the hull structure as an "external flange". Probably just semantics. Where is the other forum you refer to? Rodney S/V Sashay - K6YOT SF Bay
A bit of follow-up...
Rod: The 'other forum' is the Big Boats forum, just one 'size group' up from this one. When I saw 'Mid Size' boats, I assumed it covered the C34. I understand tension vs. sheer. I also understand a joint does better when it isn't abused by impact. On occasion, I've had to pivot my boat around a piling, relying on nothing other than my rubrail (which is a joy to have on a beamy hull). These kinds of gymnastics just don't fit with the typical C h/d joint. Kimball did refer to 'outward turning flanges' as one type of joint (in addition to the shoebox type); that may relate to smaller models - or not - but of course that's why I posted this thread to begin with. <g> Watch those hull ports if you head south again; they are perhaps the most cruiser-contrary part of a Catalina's design. Jack
Rod: The 'other forum' is the Big Boats forum, just one 'size group' up from this one. When I saw 'Mid Size' boats, I assumed it covered the C34. I understand tension vs. sheer. I also understand a joint does better when it isn't abused by impact. On occasion, I've had to pivot my boat around a piling, relying on nothing other than my rubrail (which is a joy to have on a beamy hull). These kinds of gymnastics just don't fit with the typical C h/d joint. Kimball did refer to 'outward turning flanges' as one type of joint (in addition to the shoebox type); that may relate to smaller models - or not - but of course that's why I posted this thread to begin with. <g> Watch those hull ports if you head south again; they are perhaps the most cruiser-contrary part of a Catalina's design. Jack
Smaller Models
Jack, Come to think of it, the Woodland Hills factory builds boats from 8' to 42'. I have a Coronado 15 and by gosh, it has an outward turning deck flange. No fasteners, just a glued joint. No problems with that joint either. Holds together on a blast reach with crew out on the trapeze. Takes a fair amount of docking abuse too. I just gotta keep my hand in sailing small boats
My marina is adjacent to one of the largest Catalina dealers in the US. I can look at any Catalina model 25' & up including the Morgan line just by taking a short walk around the marina. 25, 250, 27, 270, 28, 310, 320, 350s, 370, 380, 387, 400, 42, Morgan 45cc, 470, and a new 440, they are all here. The only ones missing are the Morgan 381cc and a 50. None of them has an outward turning deck flange. As far as those in-hull portlights go, I know exactly where they are when at the helm and I do watch them. The aluminum rubrail/rubber insert is 3/4" deep. The overlapped deck flange is 1/2" deep. That is 1 1/4" of combined thickness. The portlights are not right at the sheer line but about 9" inches below the sheer. The saloon portlights are forward of max beam and the hull does curve significantly toward waterline beam as does the hull at the aft cabin hull portlight. The portlights don't stand as proud as it may look at first glance. As you are aware, SF Bay is quite windy. I have levered my boat around pilings on nothing but the rubrail on several occasions with no ill effects though it is something I try not to make a habit of. They might be "cruiser contrary" in your opinion but right now as I type this at the saloon table, I am looking out on the marina through the port side saloon portlight. Mmmmm... looks like it might rain... Still gonna buy a Catalina Jack? Regards, Rodney S/V Sashay - K6YOT SF Bay
Jack, Come to think of it, the Woodland Hills factory builds boats from 8' to 42'. I have a Coronado 15 and by gosh, it has an outward turning deck flange. No fasteners, just a glued joint. No problems with that joint either. Holds together on a blast reach with crew out on the trapeze. Takes a fair amount of docking abuse too. I just gotta keep my hand in sailing small boats
My marina is adjacent to one of the largest Catalina dealers in the US. I can look at any Catalina model 25' & up including the Morgan line just by taking a short walk around the marina. 25, 250, 27, 270, 28, 310, 320, 350s, 370, 380, 387, 400, 42, Morgan 45cc, 470, and a new 440, they are all here. The only ones missing are the Morgan 381cc and a 50. None of them has an outward turning deck flange. As far as those in-hull portlights go, I know exactly where they are when at the helm and I do watch them. The aluminum rubrail/rubber insert is 3/4" deep. The overlapped deck flange is 1/2" deep. That is 1 1/4" of combined thickness. The portlights are not right at the sheer line but about 9" inches below the sheer. The saloon portlights are forward of max beam and the hull does curve significantly toward waterline beam as does the hull at the aft cabin hull portlight. The portlights don't stand as proud as it may look at first glance. As you are aware, SF Bay is quite windy. I have levered my boat around pilings on nothing but the rubrail on several occasions with no ill effects though it is something I try not to make a habit of. They might be "cruiser contrary" in your opinion but right now as I type this at the saloon table, I am looking out on the marina through the port side saloon portlight. Mmmmm... looks like it might rain... Still gonna buy a Catalina Jack? Regards, Rodney S/V Sashay - K6YOT SF BayToo funny...
What a hoot when someone sends you a pic, looking out thru *their* portlight, which you view while looking out thru yours. It may have been something I ate for dinner...or that last reading of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy the BBC just finished broadcasting. <g> OK, so I guess the official verdict is: C34 = shoebox hull-deck joint. Jack
What a hoot when someone sends you a pic, looking out thru *their* portlight, which you view while looking out thru yours. It may have been something I ate for dinner...or that last reading of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy the BBC just finished broadcasting. <g> OK, so I guess the official verdict is: C34 = shoebox hull-deck joint. Jack
370 Should be 390
Tom, you're right, I did leave out the 36. Don't know how I did that, as it is one of my favorite Catalinas. The whole thread was about the 34 so I did not specifically mention that model. The "370" should be 390, an attack of fat finger disease. I hope you enjoy your Catalina as much as I enjoy mine. Fair winds, Rodney C-42 #567 S/V Sashay - K6YOT SF Bay
Tom, you're right, I did leave out the 36. Don't know how I did that, as it is one of my favorite Catalinas. The whole thread was about the 34 so I did not specifically mention that model. The "370" should be 390, an attack of fat finger disease. I hope you enjoy your Catalina as much as I enjoy mine. Fair winds, Rodney C-42 #567 S/V Sashay - K6YOT SF Bay
Yes, the C36 is definetly an all time favorite
Don't know if anyone has seen this. But just a ~few~ of the people that have taken different Catalina's over the Oceans and Blue Water sailing. Catalina cruisers Hall of Fame - by no means complete. http://www.catalinayachts.com/hof.cfm
Don't know if anyone has seen this. But just a ~few~ of the people that have taken different Catalina's over the Oceans and Blue Water sailing. Catalina cruisers Hall of Fame - by no means complete. http://www.catalinayachts.com/hof.cfm
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