Hull construction

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Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Rich H , I am surprized to learn that after all these years of

buying "No Wax" resin so that the surface wouldn't undergo a complete cure. The wax in the finishing resin enables it to fully cure on the surface and it is the wax that interferrs with the bond between plies. The proper use of and choice for resins is what makes for strong boats. You can not layup an inch of glass on a 40 foot boat in one continous effort. When resin cures the reaction is exothermic and over haeting the laminate would be a problem.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Rich H , I am surprized to learn that after all these years of

buying "No Wax" resin so that the surface wouldn't undergo a complete cure. The wax in the finishing resin enables it to fully cure on the surface and it is the wax that interferrs with the bond between plies. The proper use of and choice for resins is what makes for strong boats. You can not layup an inch of glass on a 40 foot boat in one continous effort. When resin cures the reaction is exothermic and over haeting the laminate would be a problem.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Has NOTHING to do with NO WAX

Once the resin fully 'kicks' its hard/difficult for the next layer to adhere. .... and thats why strength repairs to polyester are made with epoxy as polyester-to-cured-polyester results in a weak bond. The molds for continuous lay-up are refrigerated to bleed off the excess heat from the exothermic reaction.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Has NOTHING to do with NO WAX

Once the resin fully 'kicks' its hard/difficult for the next layer to adhere. .... and thats why strength repairs to polyester are made with epoxy as polyester-to-cured-polyester results in a weak bond. The molds for continuous lay-up are refrigerated to bleed off the excess heat from the exothermic reaction.
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Rich H

There are 2 types of polyester resin. One is a layup resin and the other is a finishing resin. A layup resin 'kicks' and hardens up but does not completely cure for a very long time. The finishing resin contains a wax, and to my understanding, the purpose of the wax is to migrate out of the resin while curing and form an airtight barrier over the resin/glass. The lack of air is necessary for the resin to cure. I have always used the layup resin for repairs and purchased the 'wax' separately. It comes in a small jar. The wax is added to the resin for my final coat. As for epoxy, I have mixed feelings about it. I think a lot of it is hype but I do use it quite a bit. For one thing, epoxy is much more difficult to wet out on fiberglas. I have also made many repairs with polyester to polyester and have never had a problem. Just clean the surface real well of ALL waxes and contamination, sand vigorously to creat a mechanical bond and you should be just fine. IMHO Tony B
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
NOT talking about air inhibited (waxed) ....

or non-inhibited. Im talking about the cure to next layer timing. Once cured polyester does not form a good adhesive bond to the next added layer .... and thats why MODERN high tech boat builders, etc. are using a continuous process: once they start the lay-up they dont stop until finished - and the continuous process builds a **MUCH stronger** laminate. The old fashiioned air-inhibited, etc. discontinuous process is VERY inferior and weaker than the 'modern' continuous process.
 
A

Alex

absolutely hilarious

This is one of the most amusing posts that I have ever read. It is like "everyone is an expert" and some of you actually think that you know what you are talking about. Not an unfair question. I would say, call a few boat builders and they can give you an answer. Don't believe what these "dock-line" sailors tell you. They don't know much more than you do.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
In my experience the more a person has learned the less certain

he is about complex systems and methods. I thought that I had a fair amount of knowledge in working with fiberglass, Airex core and polyester resin. Others have cast doubt on the details that I thought were sound. My experience has only involved the installation of about 600 square feet of Airex core and about 300 pounds of chopped strand mat and woven roving on the inside of Bietzpadlin. This involved a substantial volume of polyester resin, acetone for clean up and a few hundred 25 grit sanding disks. I am the first to admit that there is more that I don't know about this than I do know but I have learned a little.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Dont feel bad .....

take a good hard look at the SCRIMP process wherein the boat is totally laid-up **dry** then only when fully laid up is the polyester, etc. finally injected at the end stage for a single 'cure'. Results in 15-20% lighter weight and TWICE the strength. Hinckley and the other 'top' boat builders do this and have long ago abandoned the discontinuous, resin-rich hand-lay up process. In my early engineering days hand lay-up was 'THE' method; Im simply amazed by the rapid evolution of FRG in the past 30 years. I have an Airex cored boat ... go back to where I posted IMPACT. Balsa seems much better than airex for impact as somehow airex doesnt seem to 'recover' much when impacted ... IMHO This hull is balsa cored and the deck is airex cored .... go figure.
 

CalebD

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Jun 27, 2006
1,479
Tartan 27' 1967 Nyack, NY
Not exactly hilarious, more like chemistry.

Before there was fiberglass there were other materials that were used differently by different boat makers. There are more ways than one to even attach one piece of wood to another. Now, with the advances in the chemistry of composites has come a long way since the hand lay up days with carbon fiber masts (essentially FG with a different woven clothe made of carbon threads - a hand me down from aerospace and military research efforts) and other high tech fillers. Everyone who posts here knows something from their own vantage point and experience (I hope), so who is to say that one point of view is invalid over another? My point is that if you are looking for 1 answer then you need to become several kinds of engineer, a boat rigger, a marine engine mechanic, a reasonably smart plumber and it would not hurt to know just about everything else in this world there is to know that would be helpful in owning and maintaining a sailboat. Of course I left out provisioning, navigation, climatology, astronomy, determination, patience, and a steady supply of green backs and possibly a strong attraction to Rum or other beverage. Fiberglass boats have been around since the 1950's or so and so many advances have been made with production methods and materials due to feedback from previous versions. Some have worked well and some have worked out not so well. I have a circa 1960 14' Viking day sailor that is built (overbuilt by todays standards) like a tank. I also have a 1967 Tartan 27' that is also overbuilt (again by todays standards) and a more recent 1985 19' Lightning that is built more for racing (read: thinner hull but still quite safe). My point is that different standards were used at different times and sometimes liberties were taken with an accepted standard. There is now something called the ABYC that tries to set industry standards for all boatmakers (NMMA). Google those acronyms if you like and check out their websites to see what they 'do'. While you are at it check out SAMS, NAMS and other Surveyors websites to see what kind of information and education they are supposed to keep up with. I recently took a course in Marine Investigations and the level of detail and knowledge required (from Insurance to Zincs) is quite amazing. I highly recommend his website which has many free articles and boat reviews: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/ I also liked his book although he could have used my help as a proof-reader. And no, I am not on his payroll in any way.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
RichH, for me I don't feel too bad, I am willing to

admit my ignorance. Scrimp in a proprietary name for vacuum bagging and that has existed for a long time.
 
Jan 15, 2007
226
Tartan 34C Beacon, NY
Vacum Bagging, Infusion or open molding

Vacuum bagging does go back quite a ways but the new technique that sucks the resin into the fabric is called infusion and that is relatively new. The wax or lack of wax in traditional open mold construction was to let you do a laminate in more then one go. The bond between green unwaxed resin is just as strong as if the piece was made at one time. The great advantage in infusion or to a lesser degree vacuum bagging is that you have a better resin to glass ratio and not that the part was made in one session. But a bond between fully cured polyester is not as strong as between green unwaxed moldings. All the best, Robert Gainer
 

John

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Jun 3, 2006
803
Catalina 36mkII Alameda CA
Every answer leads to a question

As always, the answer to my question is now more complicated than ever! Rich writes (below): "A good cored hull is lighter, stronger and longer lasting than a solid hull; but, there are traps that one should be aware of." So, I take this to mean that it all depends on the care taken in original construction. If a cored hull is made with care, then it can be stronger and longer lasting than a solid hull. The particular boat in question is a 2001 CS 40 footer. It is supposed to be made with vacuum bag technique. So, the question that we'd have to answer is what sort of care was taken in its manufacture.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Simple answer .....

Cored hulls are more 'vulnerable' despite all their benefit characteristics. do go to www.yachtsurvey.com, as also posted by another, and see what 'horrors' (mostly on powerboats) can beset cored hulls. My racing boat has a cored hull. My cruising boat is solid laminate ... and I simply wouldnt have a cored hull on a cruising boat.
 
Jan 15, 2007
226
Tartan 34C Beacon, NY
Life span of a hull is a simple problem

A light displacement boat can advantageously use a light stiff hull made with a cored laminate but a heavy displacement hull is best built with a solid laminate. And of course a solid hull won’t work as well for a light displacement boat. Because life span is related to the percentage of ultimate strength you stress a laminate a light racing boat will have a shorter life then a heavy cruising boat. The implication is a light boat is cored and a heavy boat isn’t so a solid laminate will last longer. So if the question is which type of laminate is better you need to see what type of boat you are talking about and then decide what the factor of safety is for the hull design because the lower percentage of ultimate strength you stress the design the longer it will last. Then you can ask about build quality of a specific builder and now you can make a judgment about how long a hull will last. All the best, Robert Gainer
 
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