Hull Cleaners Thrown Under The Bus

[Don S/V ILLusion]

This debate could be constructive only if there was a shred of empirical or even anecdotal evidence to support the supposition hull cleaning in-situ does not significantly increase copper loading.

I can certainly anticipate that studies are always subject to bias from various directions but in this case, there is nothing except supposition to contradict three of them (and common sense).

If Fastbottoms or anyone else has any evidence to support a contrary opinion, it would go a long way toward supporting an alternative view about the effects of hull cleaning.

Parenthetically, Fastbottoms point about the distinction between point source and non-point source discharges is well-taken. I helped write the regs while at EPA decades ago. What he omits is that there is do pass given to contaminant discharges simply based on source. The distinction lies in how and why they are regulated.

 

[fstbttms]

Again and for the millionth time, in-water hull cleaning absolutely does contribute to the copper loading issue. This is not a matter of debate. However since in-water hull cleaning is a necessary part of boat maintenance, this contribution cannot be altogether avoided. What is a matter of debate is just how much copper is being contributed by hull cleaning. That is the question. And the paint manufacturers have a vested interest in making that number appear as large as possible.

 

[WayneH]

Here's my take on the whole subject.

IF anti-fouling paints actually WORKED, I wouldn't be in the water scrubbing algae and barnacles off my boat. So instead of closing my job down because of pollution I create, why don't the paint companies make a better product that actually works?

(their biggest problem is once the active ingredients in the outer layer are gone, the fouling comes back.) We've been doing copper for over 300 years. Maybe, just maybe it's time to look for something different.

Economics, Say it costs me $200 in paint for my boat. I clean it 4 times a year. Because I'm retired, I work cheap. Say $400 for cleanings annually. So a paint that costs $500 to cover my bottom and WORK for a year means I save $100 annually. What does it cost to paint your bottom? How much do you pay per cleaning? What's the annual cost of the bottom paint you now have on your boat?

Sure, you gulp at buying paint for $400 a gallon but what if you didn't have to scrub it at all for a year? two years? Does it still cost $400 a gallon if you're not paying a diver to clean your hull? And when that paint comes out, I'll bet ".... is known to the State of California to...." is on the label.

 

[Gunni]

Wayne: Why when I was a boy we had this stuff called tributyltin. What it didn't kill, it chased off. That stuff worked. Then the gummint outlawed it, just because a few cute sea otters started washing up on the beach - full of the stuff, and some girl snails grew penises. Tyranny! A man's got a right to slather his bottom with what a man wants to slather upon his bottom I say. Before you know it we'll be down to Ben-Gay ointment and a prayer to keep the mollusc menace at bay !

 

[gettinthere]

Seems there are some here who worry a lot about pollution while at the same time pollute like crazy (their impression, not mine). If you are worried about trace amounts of copper from bottom cleaning, sell the damn boat. Stop being like al gore with his giant mansion, private jets and 100' motor yacht. Either sh!t or get off the pot.

OR, if you actually believe in compromise; then you'll actually listen to what fast is saying. Bottom cleaning is currently the best compromise available. If govt & the paint lobby have their way you will soon be required to haul out for a bottom cleaning. That will put costs over the top for many and create havoc in the boating world. Then you will sell that boat after all.

 

[fstbttms]

Since most of you have never cleaned a boat bottom underwater and there seems to be some misconception about what it actually entails, have a look at this video which depicts a hull cleaner using Best Management Practices to clean a well maintained hull. I think you'll agree it is a fairly gentle process removing very little anti fouling paint:

http://youtu.be/qzawnxVPlL0

 

[Rick D]

One Proposal Was Just That...

Seems there are some here who worry a lot about pollution while at the same time pollute like crazy (their impression, not mine). If you are worried about trace amounts of copper from bottom cleaning, sell the damn boat. Stop being like al gore with his giant mansion, private jets and 100' motor yacht. Either sh!t or get off the pot.

OR, if you actually believe in compromise; then you'll actually listen to what fast is saying. Bottom cleaning is currently the best compromise available. If govt & the paint lobby have their way you will soon be required to haul out for a bottom cleaning. That will put costs over the top for many and create havoc in the boating world. Then you will sell that boat after all.

...require the boat be hauled to clean the bottom. That in conjunction with an outlaw of ablative and copper paints. Never grew legs, but reflective of some thinking. It would, of course, destroy the economics of recreational boating for many of us. It's one of those things I try to monitor closely since I would have to put the boat on the market quickly before the bottom falls out. Nobody is in love with copper; we 'simply' need a viable alternative that will at least approximate the economics and performance.

 

[WayneH]

Since most of you have never cleaned a boat bottom underwater and there seems to be some misconception about what it actually entails, have a look at this video which depicts a hull cleaner using Best Management Practices to clean a well maintained hull. I think you'll agree it is a fairly gentle process removing very little anti fouling paint:

http://youtu.be/qzawnxVPlL0

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. Diving in JANUARY?????? I've already told my customers that there's a winter cut-off. I don't have a dry suit so no January or February diving for me. Sheesh, can't find my cajones now just thinking about it.

 

[fstbttms]

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. Diving in JANUARY?????? I've already told my customers that there's a winter cut-off. I don't have a dry suit so no January or February diving for me. Sheesh, can't find my cajones now just thinking about it.

Boats still need to be cleaned and bills still need to be paid, regardless of the season.

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

...require the boat be hauled to clean the bottom. That in conjunction with an outlaw of ablative and copper paints. Never grew legs, but reflective of some thinking. It would, of course, destroy the economics of recreational boating for many of us. It's one of those things I try to monitor closely since I would have to put the boat on the market quickly before the bottom falls out. Nobody is in love with copper; we 'simply' need a viable alternative that will at least approximate the economics and performance.

I have been using Pacifica Plus non-copper paint. Got 2 seasons in New England with very little issues. I would highly recommend it as a viable alternative.

We only did 2 coats over a fresh barrier coat as a primer. This winter we plan to sand (no copper, so no restriction) down to the barrier coat and reapply. We plan to go cruising in 2015 and not pull again until 2016 or so. We will use this paint again but go with 5-6 thin coats.