How would you have trimmed?

Stu Jackson · Aug 24, 2009

Traveler down to where you had it is a "Fisherman's Reef" and was the right thing to do. Given the masthead rig, and your "even" balance of a 110 sized jib and the full main, I'd have three choices for ya: 1) drop the traveler further and loosen the ms some more; 2) reef the main which (you can do easily on a beat BTW if you're rigged properly), or 3) do 1 or 2 and furl your jib some more. 3) sucks because you're going beyond the useful range of the jib.

And THEN I realized you said TALL rig. No brainier, reef the main!!!!

Joe · Aug 25, 2009

Power up the headsail, power down the main. If you have to reef the main, so be it.. but pull all the strings to flatten and put a bunch of twist in it first. Roll out the headsail to 135 at least... you're racing, man....and then adjust the twist, put on some halyard and back stay. Oh, and get your ballast to windward.......here's where you get to yell.... "EVERYONE ON THE RAIL"

Relentless · Aug 25, 2009

Rolling in the jib and racing dont go together, full jib double reefed main

jcherubini · Aug 25, 2009

Headsail roller-furlers are not really roller-reefers. I would have changed the 150 to a 110 and flown an actually smaller jib if I wanted to reduce headsail area. Flying a big jib and a double-reefed main actually begins to become counterproductive-- a genoa with too much area after the mast (the over-100-percent area) actually can contribute to weather helm. I've seen duffers sailing under roller-furling jib alone because they're afraid to get the main up, through not knowing how to reef it fast or safely, and even with headsail alone they can't point well enough to make a simple channel marker.

I agree that roller-furling and racing don't mix. Even furled that 'tampon bulge' of a headsail is a windage problem. On Diana I have a two-grooved Schaefer Tuff Luff-- it's the foil without the furling drum, which enables me to pull up the 110 and set it before I pull down the 135. To me, in racing, this is vital. Any furler that does not allow you to pull the jib right down and off it, and to set another one, and under racing conditions, isn't appropriate for racing round the buoys at all.

I am a little surprised why in 18-20 you were contemplating a double-reefed main-- here in NJ that's God-given sailing weather because the alternative is no wind at all. But I am not surprised that you made 5-6 knots in 5-6' rollers when properly trimmed. I'm only saying you would have made more to windward with a proper headsail set-up, which might have allowed you to trim the main more and increase speed made good. Leading edge is key.

I agree with the comment that dumping the main traveller is an easy way to depower. The comment 'power up the jib, power down the main' reminds me of what my uncle the surgeon used to tell us-- 'starve the main and feed the jib.' To which my dad (his brother) said, 'See? All that medical school will be good for something.'

Ed Schenck · Aug 25, 2009

My only comment is that you have to be a Great Lakes sailor to know what 5 to 6 footers means. I still think that all the preceding advice is quite good. But Bob has a unique situation pounding into those Michigan waves.

Don Guillette · Aug 25, 2009

Bob M: I enjoyed reading your post. I wish we could get more of them like yours on the sail trim forum.

I’m going to provide some rambling thoughts. First, there is no difference between racing trim and cruising trim in various conditions – there is only a right way and a wrong way to trim sails. Secondly, no race is worth wrecking or breaking things, which can be very expensive to fix or replace. Personally, I’m just a common seaman and I don’t have a lot of $$ to spend on needless repairs.

The question is how far does the racer or cruiser want to push his boat in tough conditions? For me it depends on the skippers experience and most importantly the experience level of the crew.

In the Santa Cruz, Ca Catalina 30 National Regatta a while back we raced in winds exceeding 40 knots under full sails (no reefs) as did a bunch of other boats and I never thought twice about it due to the experience level of the guys I was sailing with. It really was like a walk in the park. Would I try that on my own in Long Beach, Ca on my C30 – not on your life.

In general and in order to power through waves, whether racing or cruising, you need POWER from your sails. The engine of the C30 is the jib. Reducing the sail area by rolling it up decreased your power. Twisting of the top of the main and jib allows POWER to spill off the top 1/3 of those sails thus reducing and bleeding off power. So where does one draw the line? Common sense should rule. In other words, when you feel your on the edge of losing control of your boat and this is different for each skipper – KILL THE POWER. How does one know when he is on the edge? For me it was when my rear end began to pucker!!

Don Guillette · Aug 25, 2009

Bob M's thread is a great one because beginners to intermediates can learn from them. I was just thinking a bit more about Bob M's post and came up with some questions. In fact, my wife just asked me where my head was at since I appeared deep in thought. I told her I was with Bob M on Lake Michigan. She asked who Bob M was and told me I've never been on Lake Michigan. Yes, I have, in fact I'm there now in my head!!

Let's just say Bob needed every bit of power from his boat that she could give to get through the situation he was in. Review his post and tell me what 2 sail trim adjustment he made, other than reefing and twist, that reduced his effort to power through the waves?

Why was he experiencing too much pressure on the rudder?

CharlieCobra · Aug 25, 2009

Going by Bob's post, and I may be wrong about this, I would've flown the Genny full out with the car forward to eliminate twist and regain power. To counter that and to lessen weather helm, I would've reefed the Main down to the point where I could move the traveler to centerline, trim tighter and get full boat speed. I would then ease the sheets in puffs. But that's just me....

Oh yes, the two adjustments... Moving the car forward to induce twist and moving the traveler down too far. He was getting weather helm because he moved the CE too far aft with his adjustments.

Don Guillette · Aug 28, 2009

If you are a beginner to intermediate sailor there are some lessons to be learned from this series of threads. Bob M along with the other contributors know WHAT to do. The WHAT is easy but Bob M also KNOWS WHY he is making a sail trim adjustment. The WHY of sail trim is everything. Unless a mate can explain WHY he is making a sail trim adjustment he is just guessing and missing the other adjustments that need to be made when you push or pull a particular sail control for the main or jib.

Here’s what I mean. I can’t tell you how many boats I’ve been on at the request of a skipper to help improve their sail trim and I hear him or her give a command such as “adjust the outhaul”. Actually, I’m waiting for that command to be given so I can make a point. The first question I ask is WHY did you issue that command? The second question is “which way and how much?” The 3rd question is “what about the rest of the sail?” In other words, the outhaul adjustment took care of the bottom 2/3 but what about the top 1/3 of the main and what about the jib? You have to deal with the complete picture.

As Bob M points out the important thing was to maintain control of the boat. There is a very thin line the skipper has to tread between control and out of control. Gladstone is right – I love his works and along with Dennis Conner I refer to their stuff all the time.

Back to Bob M’s situation. On a masthead rig the engine is the jib. When he furled it he cut the power to the boat. What he was left with was a gigantic barn door (mainsail) which can and easily does overpower the rudder. This happens all the time and I’ve seen it a million times. A skipper sailing closehauled is trying to turn a corner be it a mark or the entrance to a marina. He finds it very difficult as the boat wants to continue straight. The mainsail is overpowering the rudder. The solution is to simply ease down the traveler, which makes turning the corner simple. Try it yourself the next time your on the water.

Here’s the answers I was looking for regarding the mainsail. In the situation Bob M was in when he dropped the traveler he reduced the angle of attack and lost power. When he tightened the outhaul he flattened the sail thus de-powering it. He needed as much power as he could handle to get through the conditions he was sailing in.

ntvinh986 · Nov 16, 2009

Bob M. said:
Here's the particulars:

I was recently racing my Catalina 30 tall rig. On the windward leg, we were beating into 5-6 foot waves (Lake Michigan, so waves more closely spaced) in about 18-20 knots of true wind. I had the 150 genoa reefed to about 110. Jib cars were back to allow the top of the sail to twist off. Jib sheeted in moderately hard. Full mainsail, traveler down to the point where mainsail was being backwinded along the luff. Mainsheet set to allow some twist. Outhaul moderately tight.

I was trying to foot off just a little. We were heeled too much, and there was too much pressure on the rudder at times. Even so, we were making about 5.6 knots of boatspeed, which amazed me. But controlling the helm was quite difficult.

What would you have done differently?

Hi guys, Im a newbie. Nice to join this forum.

How would you have trimmed?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

ntvinh986