How to check sail condition?

justsomeguy · Jul 18, 2014

Yes, I think if you were to pull the head, tack and clew fairly tightly, you could get an idea of how much belly remains.

Go for it!

shemandr · Jul 18, 2014

In light air a tired sail could look OK. It's when the wind pipes up that you see the poor shape. So color me skeptical that the tractor thing is going to be a useful test.

Gunni · Jul 18, 2014

Beyond inspection of fabric, stitching, attachment points, you are just going to have to sail them. If it were me, I would ask for quotes from several sailmakers in the interim. You may find that it isn't worth fussing with old sails. And new sails are always a great way to improve a tired old boat. There are some great deals out there from hungry lofts.

Ian McGain · Jul 18, 2014

You can do what I did with my 79 Hunter 30' which was send it to Sailcare in Denver, PA. for an evaluation. They brought mine back from the dead and they have now lasted over 14 years of use on the Chesapeake Bay.

http://www.sailcare.com/

Joe · Jul 18, 2014

I wouldn't waste any money fixing 35 year old sails. You can stretch the luff, or lay the sail flat and look at the curve in the luff.... but what would that tell you? What is the standard you seek to compare to your sail?

You should take the sail to a loft and let them evaluate it... get a quote for repair, if they will give you one..... then put that money into the kitty for a new mainsail. Of all the projects you have working on this boat.... new sails will be the most dramatic improvement... it's like cleaning 6 inches of soggy growth off the boat's bottom.

BTW I would pay no attention to the hour meter when considering your sails.

You can buy a OEM quality mainsail for you boat at an online supplier for under $1500. Here's one source: www.thesailwarehouse.com

RichH · Jul 19, 2014

To evaluate the sails, wait until the boat is in the water and the mast is up.

For your boat if it has woven dacron sails ....

For the mainsail go to: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970 Post#1 and evaluate the condition of the 'boltrope' by following the directions found there. Boltropes on such sails shrink in length over time and are the CHIEF cause of such sails becoming 'baggy'. Usually an easy and moderate cost fix by a sailmaker.

Same for the jib/genoa --- wait until you can raise and sail the boat. If it attaches to your forestay with 'hanks' it too may have a bolt rope and it can be 'eased' back into proper length. Pay attention to the leech when on a beat to windward ... it the leech cant be tensioned by the jibsheets so that the leech panels are pointed 'straight back' and that section of the sail can be held PARALLEL to the boats centerline, then consider to take it to a sailmaker for evaluation/correction.

In both cases, go sailing first to note any 'weird anomalies' and 'god awful' shape. Its not the age of the sails that counts, its the condition of the sail and the shape it takes in 12-15kts.
The good thing about 'stretchy' woven dacron ..... you can most times 'stretch it back into good shape' .... all by yourself with halyard and sheet, etc. tension.

Dacron sails with exception to the leech area rarely become 'blown-out'. If there is a 'shape' problem 'baggyness' or very deep and too much draft its usually the boltrope has shrunken in length and that can be replaced or eased.
Warning- most sail lofts dont like to adjust / ease boltropes .... as they wont sell as many new sails if they do this minor adjustment.

rardiH36 · Jul 19, 2014

I am glad RichH contributed about this topic. Reading kito's opening post, I was thinking along the same lines -- because of RichH's similar bolt rope advice to me five or so years ago! RichH, however, explains much better than I could.

For six years now, I have been using on my 1980 Cherubini Hunter 36 a second-hand Catalina 36 dacron full batten main sail probably made in the mid 1980's. I did the bolt rope procedure in RichH's link. The sail has since driven my boat forward countless countless times in the frequent SF Bay 20-30kts wind. After all the years and outings, the fabric integrity is still fine.

Also, the ~135 head sail that was on the furler when I bought my boat also is from the mid 1980's. I still use it during the winter when the winds are generally much lighter on SF Bay. Fabric integrity is still fine enough that I am not concerned about losing the sail when out.

If your fabric still looks sound, the stitching integrity is good and isn't UV damaged, and there is no evidence of prior wear related repairs, then check the condition of the leech. If good, then do the bolt rope procedure (you can do this yourself) and go sailing.

In my opinion, before new sails, attention should first be allocated to ensuring the standing rigging, chainplates, etc are sound and safe and adjusted correctly. Then next would be to install a roller furler...either with a new head sail or have your existing hank-on converted. In the conversion, the sail loft will also re-cut the luff area which can restore much of a new sail's performance.

Bob S · Jul 19, 2014

RichH is a great asset to this site

azguy · Jul 19, 2014

when I did new sails it was like putting a turbo on the boat, plus I gained the ability to get about 20 degrees closer to the wind.

Rolly Tasker full batten main and Rolly Tasker 150 head on a CDI RF

Doc_holiday · Jul 19, 2014

I'm no expert but I suspect the full battens helped quite a bit. I don't know if you had them before but they definitely help hold sail shape.

Joe · Jul 19, 2014

kito said:
Hey Joe, thanks for the link. I really like their headsail/furler combos. Since I know I want a new headsail and furler I guess I'll put the mainsail on the backburner for now. Now, to decide 150 or 135......foam luff.....CDI, Profurl or Harken?. Anyone have recommendations for a H30? I have hank on's on my C22 so don't know much about furlers. I am a cruiser not a racer.

I think Rich H's comments might help you get some more life out of your main, so you can concentrate your resources on the headsail upgrade. For your purpose.... coastal cruising.. I'm a big Profurl fan.... I'd get the cruising foil (round) with the extended tangs to raise the sail off the deck for better visibility and green water dispersion. Sail size is more of a local preference... but I single hand a lot and would prefer the smaller headsail and some added roach on the main.... simply because it gives you some good reefing options without changing sails. In the end, you want to be able to get the headsail down to 90 with no ill effects. A 90 with 2 reefs would cover most your you coastal options.... then eventually invest in a 100 blade and a good reaching/off wind sail that's easy to deploy... gennaker in a sock, or one of those cool top down furing code zero deals,,, wow, now I'm dreaming..... sorry.

RichH · Jul 20, 2014

Here's a suggestion for anyone buying a new woven dacron mainsail, a suggestion that will allow for easy future 'adjustment and reset' of that 'always shrinking' boltrope.

Next time you buy a new (boltroped) mainsail made of woven dacron, ask the sail loft to 'store' an additional length of boltrope on or across the top/headboard of the sail. Nutherwords, the boltrope wont be 'cut-off' exactly where the luff meets the headboard; but instead, a 6-8"+ of extra length of boltrope is 'continued' past the top of the luff and is sewn to the top of the headboard ... and 'all ready to go' when that boltrope needs to be 'eased' to bring the luff back to proper length dimension WHEN that boltrope begins to shrink. If that 'little tail' of about 6-8" of 'stored' boltrope is already there, all the sailmaker, or yourself, has to do is cut the binding twine and slide some of the boltrope down into the luff sleeve and resew the binding twine to keep the boltrope attached to its sleeve. You MUST have the OEM luff dimensions from when the sail was new to do this .... keep those 'records'!!!!!

If you do this, then a boltrope adjustment will take about 1/2 hour of time to bring the sail back to its original shape and dimensions ... for a few $$$$.
I make/loft my own sails, I prefer high quality woven dacron fabric because I can readily 'shape' the sail for the always changing wind/wave conditions. I usually readjust/ease my boltropes after 100-150± hours of hard 'sailing time' to keep the sail shape 'perfect', and to remove the 'baggyness' that begins to occur when those boltrope begin to shrink. All I need is the original length dimensions, a stout sail needle and some waxed sailmaker's twine .... cost is about 20¢ and about 30 minutes 'work'. Much cheaper than buying or making new mainsails all the time.

FWIW - on mainsails which usually get permanently 'stretched out' (blown out) at the leech between the top and second from the top battens, I usually add small 12" long light weight 'auxiliary' battens to help support the inevitable 'sagging to leeward' of the leech/roach area, usually between batten #1 & #2.
On my sport-boat with BIG roach, I add 3 small aux. battens (between the headboard and 1st, between #1 & #2, between #2 ) as Im a gorilla on the mainsheet who likes to greatly 'overtension' my mainsheet in order to 'power-pinch' - putting the 'flaps down' (hooking up the leech to weather to gain excess draft) for very high 'lift' (and increased VMG) at slow speeds ... as they do on large aircraft when landing - Great for initiating 'roll-tacking' or getting the boat to plane earlier when 'beating'.
I also add small aux. battens 'up high' on my small non-over lapping jibs, these are jibs with large 'roach' areas.

rardiH36 · Jul 20, 2014

Dear RichH:

Re your last post, even more useful and actionable info from you!

I will definitely add small battens to the roach of an oversize full batten mainsail that I am currently modifying to fit my boat (on-going project).

Going back to the topic of shrunken bolt rope on the mainsail. Can you comment if possibly also the dacron itself stretches along the luff? I ask because a few years ago, for a head sail, I detached the #6 foil luff tape from the sail's luff by carefully cutting the zig-zag stiches. Subsequently, laying the sail down flat across my driveway into the garage, the luff length of the relaxed sail fabric became 7" longer than the original ~42' luff length. See the attached picture (which I have posted before).

Luff tape is Dacron appearing fabric with a synthetic fiber cord sewn in which I would conjecture might not have a tendency to shrink much? Maybe instead the Dacron sail fabric stretched through the years? Or it's a combination of both?

Maybe the same happens with main sails?

Because of the 7" increase length of my jib luff after re-sewing the luff tape back onto the Dacron sail fabric, I needed to cut down the jib luff at the head a bit because the previous head now extended beyond the top of my furler's aluminum foil length.

rardiH36 · Jul 20, 2014

Joe said:
I'm a big Profurl fan.... I'd get the cruising foil (round) with the extended tangs to raise the sail off the deck for better visibility and water dispersion.

I installed a new Profurl last year with the extended tangs that Joe mentions. Here is a picture of the outcome. From memory, the extended tang option doesn't cost more than the deck swept variation.

RichH · Jul 21, 2014

rardiH36 said:
Going back to the topic of shrunken bolt rope on the mainsail. Can you comment if possibly also the dacron itself stretches along the luff? I ask because a few years ago, for a head sail, I detached the #6 foil luff tape from the sail's luff by carefully cutting the zig-zag stiches. Subsequently, laying the sail down flat across my driveway into the garage, the luff length of the relaxed sail fabric became 7" longer than the original ~42' luff length. See the attached picture (which I have posted before).

Luff tape is Dacron appearing fabric with a synthetic fiber cord sewn in which I would conjecture might not have a tendency to shrink much? Maybe instead the Dacron sail fabric stretched through the years? Or it's a combination of both?

Maybe the same happens with main sails?

Because of the 7" increase length of my jib luff after re-sewing the luff tape back onto the Dacron sail fabric, I needed to cut down the jib luff at the head a bit because the previous head now extended beyond the top of my furler's aluminum foil length.

Luff tapes (called continuous support luff tape) and Boltropes are NOT the same thing.
Boltropes prevent the luff from stretching.
Luff tapes and luffs can easily permanently stretch due to long term heavy halyard strain or long term use of the sail in high winds .... and when they do stretch the sail cloth panel along the luff will also become permanently stretched.
The main cause of all this is: forgetting to release jib/genoa halyard tension at the end of the days sailing. Same permanent stretch will happen when forgetting to release the outhaul on a loose foot mainsail at the end of the day. Such permanent deformation is called 'creep'.

Suggest you consider (if not already used) a luff tape with two small embedded reinforcing (small diameter) rope ... One of the very small ropes inside the tape fits inside the foil groove, the other will be located 'just behind' and outside of the 'groove'.

Doc_holiday · Jul 21, 2014

I don't loosen my out haul on my main (loose footed) but thanks for the info, I will from now on.

I'm not sure of the advantage of a bolt rope over slugs. I can't imagine one is significantly better than the other enough to justify going with a bolt rope and knowing sooner or later you will have to deal with the rope shrinking or contracting.

How to check sail condition?

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