How to Buy a Sailboat

kappykaplan · Nov 30, 2022

Cowpokee said:
The extra expense of the maintenance and storage is the biggest issue I have to account for but I don’t yet have a full appreciation the impact it will have on our retirement funds.

Just a whole lot of BOAT units! Good luck. :beer:

rgranger · Nov 30, 2022

Cowpokee said:
A little advice here please on how to decide on buying a boat without emotion dominating the decision.

Make a punch list and recognize that no boat will punch all of the boxes. I use excel to keep my lists when I'm buying a new boat (I've owned 9 different sailboats over the years) and that lets me look at boats side-by-side. I like shoal draft boats because I like to sail in the NC outerbanks and it is shoal there... so I have some very specific features I'm looking for...

So it sounds like a few things you would want on your list include....

1) An enclosed head with shower (hot water?)
2) Galley (add your specifics)
3) Navigation electronics package (add your specifics)
4) Power windlass ?
5) Draft ???
6) AC &/or heat?
7) Newer sails (maybe less than 5 years?)
9) Engine/fuel type and age of engine (do you plan to carry spare parts? -- are they easy to find?) (add your specifics)
10) Number of Staterooms?
11) Power generation. Do you want solar? Do you want a genset?
12) Water generation?
13) Tankage (how much fuel and water do you want your boat to carry?)

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 30, 2022

1) Happy wife, happy life. (Sounds like you already got that memo.

)
2) If your dreams include the Bahamas, I’d try to find a shallower draft boat. Maybe one with a keel/centerboard. Or a cat if budget permits.
As for size, if your budget allows it will greatly improve your overall comfort and livability, but you’ll spend more time/money cleaning and maintaining. Look for a boat that is set up for shorthanded crew, and make sure it maneuvers easily at the dock (prop should be directly forward of the rudder so you can kick the stern sideways with a power burst). Try backing and turning. Bow thruster is a huge plus. You’ll quickly acclimate to handling a bigger boat and if you’re cruising on an extended basis you’ll prefer to anchor most of the time (if only to save money). But you’re still going to have to dock for pumping out and fuel/water, and it’s better to be able to do it stress free.
I had a checklist (wishlist) when I was shopping for my current boat. I ended up making some compromises in the end, but having a list is always a good starting point. When inspecting, I had another list. I‘ll share them later.
Edit: @rgranger

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 30, 2022

I just read the listing for that boat on yachtworld. It’s a beautiful boat - looks to me like a nice ocean boat and very well equipped but it’s setup doesn’t look to be friendly for a short-handed cruising couple. Some of my concerns are:
Visibility from the helm (Forward dodger and life raft placement)
Need to go on deck for reefing and trimming sails.
Air and water draft? Air draft (bridge height clearance) not stated, but for cruising the east coast US AICW you ideally want to be under 5’ D and under 63 feet H.
Anchor is listed at #60 “plow”. IMHO that’s the right size, but for a cruising boat you might want to consider going oversized if you can fit, and upgrade to a larger new-generation anchor such as a Spade, Vulcan, or Mantus M2. That’s easy, and there’s no such thing as too much anchor at o-dark-hundred when a squall hits.

jssailem · Nov 30, 2022

@rgranger has provided a nice check list.

I would check out the Buy a boat ideas of a 140,000 nm plus cruiser John Harries at www.morganscloud.com . He talks about finding a boat that will serve the needs/dreams you have in mind, not the gadgets or specifications so frequently used to gauge a boat. I found his online " How To Buy a Cruising Boat " book very helpful and I felt worth the membership fee. The fee covers all of the things you might consider ecvne after you make the purchase. Check it out. He offers many of his articles free to not yet members.

I would council as you wander the docks looking for that gem.... You will need to consider man handling the sails. Unless you have crew members that do weightlifting as a hobby, you are going to need to occasionally take down the sails, fold and store them in a bag. The bigger the boat the heavier the sails. I find that the sails on my 35ft boat are about as much as I want to handle alone. When checking out a boat, it might be a good idea to check the weight of your future sails.

Second idea, bigger boats are more expensive to operate in every way. They consume more money in Marina's (in some cases there may not be a slip your size). All of the hardware and rigging requires more maintenance and expense to service/replace should it break.

Know your budget and plan accordingly. You want your retirement to be fun and exciting, not worrying about can we enjoy a nice meal ashore or should we save the money for that new replacement part we need.

Those are couple of the more sobering thoughts for looking at boats. Every boat you look at will have maintenance issues needing your attendance, upon signing the purchase papers. Expect it and budget accordingly.

dlochner · Nov 30, 2022

You're starting out on the right foot, knowing that you may be seduced by the sirens of a classic boat.

For this particular boat, expect to spend upwards of $50K after the sale for refitting. You'll probably want to replace all the electronics, they were high end back in their day, not so much anymore. Teak decks are a concern, another maintenance item. What kind of fabric is on the cushions? It sort of looks like vinyl or Naugahyde. Both can be hot and sticky in the tropics.

We spent last year living aboard our 36' Sabre in the Keys and the Bahamas. It was, for us, a good size and comfortable. There was plenty of room for humans, but storage was a bit cramped, we sacrificed the quarter berth to storage. The head was a good size and we replaced the marine toilet bowl with a larger more comfortable standard sized bowl. Also we replaced all the foam in the cushions.

There is always the lure of a little larger boat, one with more room, more features, and a bit more speed. These benefits can come at a cost. The 10' difference between a 36' boat and 46' boat means expenses go up, a stay in a marina costs from $20 to $50 more a night. Haulouts cost more, bottom paint costs more, insurance costs more, the list goes on.

Larger boats generally mean more systems and with more systems operating the boat is more about system management and maintenance than sailing. And of course more things to break down. Bigger boats also mean bigger loads and heavier sails, anchors, fenders, dock lines and so forth. It is physically harder to sail a bigger boat, so one starts looking at electric winches or electric winch handles, or foregoing the sails and motoring. It is easy to imagine oneself behind the helm or lounging in the cockpit. How accessible is the engine? How hard to change the oil and transmission fluid? Can you get to the plumbing and steering systems?

Most cruisers spend much more time living aboard than sailing. So comfortable and safe accommodations are important on a mooring and while living at 20° of heel. Tankage is also important, especially fuel and water. For comparison, we had a 40 gallon diesel tank which gave us about 40 hours of motoring at 6 knots. By conserving water, our 86 gallons would last about 10 to 14 days.

Long term cruising is a life style not a vacation. It is easy when entering retirement to dream of white sand beaches, azure waters and cold beverages. That's only part of the life. It is a rich and fulfilling life style, but it is not without dark moments, literally and figuratively. Go into this with eyes wide open. I thought we did, yet there were some really unpleasant surprises along the way and a lot of great finds.

Will we go back? Yes. We're taking this winter and spring to add heat and to replace the freshwater plumbing before heading out the St Lawrence river to Newfoundland and Nova Scotia next June. And we'll probably end up in the Bahamas next winter.

Meanwhile, look at a lot of boats, talk to people who are doing what you would like to do. Follow a few realistic cruisers on YouTube. And dream.

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 30, 2022

This was my wishlist for an east coast and Bahamas cruising cat. Your list will vary. I didn’t get all of them, but some were easy to add and the cost just needed to be figured into the overall equation:
New boat requirements
Lazy jacks with full batten main, electric winch to raise main
Dinghy davits
Stern deck shower
3 cabins
Air conditioning and heating
space for 500w Solar+
Stall shower
2 heads
Storage space for fenders, sails etc
Diesel (not gasoline)
Good anchor setup with windlass chain and wash down pump
Good Sail sailing performance and convenient sail handling controls led to cockpit
Protected helm and not isolated from crew
Good helm visibility
ICW Friendly draft (height and depth)
galley up
Good bridge deck clearance
Cockpit enclosure and visibility
Electronics to be added if not installed:
Radar
AIS transceiver
VHF remote mic at helm
AGM or Lithium house bank
AP, CP, speed depth wind
Fog horn (built in to VHF)

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 30, 2022

dlochner said:
Can you get to the plumbing and steering systems?

AMEN

My prior boat was 21 years old when I sold it, and in the 11 years I owned it there wasn’t any system I didn’t need to access for maintenance or replacement at some point. When shopping for this boat, the fact that Robertson & Caine (Leopard) puts access panels everywhere was the biggest decision factor to make me decide on a Leopard cat (vs Fontaine Pajot, which seals almost everything in during production). Tanks, wiring, plumbing, steering etc.
edit: Engine access: how much boat yoga is needed for routine check and service? What about cabin headliners? Can you access that underside of the deck without cutting?

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 30, 2022

Tanks - aluminum and stainless steel will eventually become perforated from internal corrosion. What’s involved in replacement? Figure it in. If it’s a holding or diesel tank (older than 10 years) you should probably replace with polypropylene tanks as preventative maintenance, because a ruptured tank can be a nightmare on a boat, especially while you’re living aboard.

dLj · Nov 30, 2022

Cowpokee said:
A little advice here please on how to decide on buying a boat without emotion dominating the decision.

I am retiring at the end of next year and intend on spending the winter months as a liveaboard in the Caribbean.

My original intention was to finish the refit on a 1964 Allied Seawind that I have so that I am able to cruise in the Bahamas. My wife doesn’t feel like she would enjoy spending extended time living in cramped conditions and taking cockpit showers.

We found a 46’ Swan in Annapolis that I am flying out to look at this weekend.

This is much more boat than I was ever expecting to have but I am already caught up with daydreaming of how awesome it would be sailing such a fine boat. I do realize that the 8’ draft is not ideal for the Bahamas but I am already telling myself that the extra comfort that my wife will enjoy is worth the inconveniences that we are likely to encounter.

The boat already has an extensive refit recently completed so there will be no extra expenses incurred when we are ready to go.

I fully expect that once I get on board and go below decks I will be in awe of the build quality and spaciousness of the layout as I look around.

The extra expense of the maintenance and storage is the biggest issue I have to account for but I don’t yet have a full appreciation the impact it will have on our retirement funds.

I'm a firm believer that you should have the smallest boat possible for how you are going to use it. I had set a maximum draft limit of 6 feet as a constraint, and wouldn't you know it, that's what I ended up with. I certainly would not want more unless I was crossing oceans - as my main goal. By the way, crossing oceans is my goal but I want to spend a good amount of time visiting places I get to. so my goal is not to be an ocean dweller, but to use the boat to get to cool places and enjoy those places. So my boat focus is more on there, with an eye to ocean worthy. Deep draft would be in my mind for racing or focused on ocean travel. It sounds like your focus is not that...

For the area you say you are planning to sail I would not want the draft you have on that boat. Don't know how much that Swan is going for in $'s but I'd think there are some other options that would make great liveaboards that would not cost anywhere near that much... I have a friend selling Whitby 42 that is in excellent condition if you are interested in checking that out is just one example. Also bare in mind, hoisting the sails on a 48 foot boat is going to be a lot harder. You are retiring. You are not getting younger. You should keep in mind you will not continue to be as strong in 5 years as you are today...

But that's a beautiful boat!

dj

Calif. Ted · Nov 30, 2022

Cowpokee said:
This is much more boat than I was ever expecting to have but I am already caught up with daydreaming of how awesome it would be sailing such a fine boat.

You've sold yourself on that boat and you haven't seen it, you will have difficulty being objective during your inspection.
Never get emotionally involved in a boat you don't own and even then try to avoid it.

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 30, 2022

Some survey and inspection check lists I found on the web are attached below. I found them helpful when looking at boats. They're too detailed to completely fill out on an owners first inspection, but it's good to have a list of things you want to cover and make sure you review it if you're seriously interested in the boat. Make your own abbreviated version or mark these up.
Make sure you check service and inspection access, not just engines. e.g. sooner or later you might develop a deck leak where a traveler runs - is the headliner molded, or is it made from something you can remove without needing a fiberglass repair? What if a valve or water tank fitting cracks/leaks? Or you need to trace a wiring problem? If the engine is under a berth what does it take to remove it from the boat for major service?

Crusty Ol Salt · Nov 30, 2022

Cowpokee said:
A little advice here please on how to decide on buying a boat without emotion dominating the decision.

dlochner said:
You're starting out on the right foot, knowing that you may be seduced by the sirens of a classic boat.

My wife is the best. She never allows me to seal the day on big purchases until I sleep on it. When asked once by a car salesman "what if it is not there when you get back? Her reply, "then it wasn't meant to be."

Me, as soon as you making a purchase on emotion, I thought that is one of the best reasons to hire a professional surveyor. They don't wear rose colored glasses.

Hollyberry · Nov 30, 2022

From what I've heard from Bahama cruisers an 8 ft draft might be overly problematic.

She's a beauty... but will be quite a handful for two... (didn't notice if she had powered winches.. that's a monstrous genoa to grind in if not.) If ventures beyond the Bahamas to the Antilles are in the cards, this may make more sense....

dlochner · Nov 30, 2022

Regarding the 8' draft and the Bahamas, it will be limiting. There will be places that are inaccessible with that draft and the deeper draft will force anchoring in less desirable places, i.e., further from shore in more exposed waters, and following the tides will be paramount. We have 5 draft and there were a few places I held my breath when going over them. Under 6' draft would be preferable.

If plans include any of the ICW, mast height is important. While the design height for the bridges is 65' at mean high water. Many of the bridges have settled and the actual height is more like 63'. The lower height forces boats outside and outside includes going around Cape Hatteras, notorious for bad weather and shoals.

Keeping draft at 6' or under will make for easier going down the ICW. Even with 5' draft we polished our keel once. (It should be noted the chart said we were in 8 to 9 feet of water. The chart was wrong! :huh:

)

DayDreamer41 · Nov 30, 2022

All I can add is, yah but its a Swan, dam that's a real nice boat!

dlochner · Nov 30, 2022

Now that we have dashed your hopes of sailing a Swan...

It's time to learn the broker game, especially as you will be traveling some distance to see any boat you will be buying.

All brokers would prefer to sell you a boat that they or their brokerage has listed, because the brokerage will earn the full commission. All brokers, or at least brokers you want to deal with, will co-broker boats they have not listed and split the brokerage fee. The standard fee for brokers is 10% of the selling price paid by the seller. Brokers will pay more attention to you and be more helpful in direct relation to how much you are spending on the boat, looking for a $20K boat, don't expect much. Looking at a $1M boat, expect to be wined and dined. In the $100k+ range you can expect decent service, but no fawning.

If you have made arrangements to go to Annapolis to see the Swan, go. If you can add a couple of days to your stay that would be good. First, Annapolis is a fun town. Lots of good restaurants and it just has a nice vibe. (Over the bridge in Eastport is the Boathouse Restaurant, a favorite among local sailors. Down the street is Quirk and Bach pottery, nice people, nice pottery. And a few blocks down is Davis's Bar, a local dive bar popular with he sailing crowd, a different crowd from the Boathouse crowd.)

Given the distance you will travel to see a boat, the broker you use will be important. A good broker will help you find the boat that fits your needs and help you understand what you need. When you are in Annapolis find a couple of other boats from different brokers that you might be interested in. Make appointments to go see the boats and be clear that you are looking for both a broker and a boat. And, be clear that having a broker you can work with is as important as finding the boat of your dreams.

If you are willing to expand your search area, Allan Pressman, from Windswept Yachts in Florida is someone I could recommend. We know each other from a Sabre Sailboat owners group and he has always impressed with honesty about the business and his knowledge about sailboats. He is also well respected by other brokers.

In Annapolis, I have met and become FB friends with Dale Davies from Integrity Yacht Sales in Annapolis. We crossed paths last year in the Florida Keys and again in the Abacos. He's out there cruising on his Cabo Rico 38 and knows the cruising world, but I can't vouch for his business because I don't have any knowledge of it. That should be interpreted neutrally.

Good luck with your search and let us know if you have more questions, which you will.

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 30, 2022

To add to @dlochner ’s post above - surveyors are also not without bias. Most avoid giving you a candid opinion that’s negative because they often get references from brokers. They also know that it’s a buyer’s dream, and they don’t want to dash dreams or squash the sale. Rather, they’ll couch their analysis in qualified phrases such as “shows normal wear for its age” (translated ”due for scheduled replacement but not an emergency or risk”) or ”should be maintained or upgraded at buyer discretion” (translated - he wouldn’t want his boat in that condition so it’s “overdue for replacement“).
Never take a surveyor referral from a broker. Always find one from another boater or from the NAMS or SAMS web sites.

Edit - pay very close attention to the findings and deficiencies section- those are negotiable points with the seller, or might be reasons to walk away from the deal.

How to Buy a Sailboat

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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