How much water under the keel

[Scott B]

In Georgian Bay, where we'll be sailing for the first time, there is an area that has a considerable amount of islands and out-cropping of rocks, hence the name of the area "30,000 Islands". The bottom is mostly mud. In the areas around the islands there is an inland marked chanel. In some areas this chanel will go down to 7 - 8 ft. depth and even less on the side chanels. This area is fairly protected and is not subject to high waves. Outside of the chanels for mooring you need to follow the charted depths and marked rocks as well as "local knowledge" to avoid the bottom.My question... 1) when you are cruising under power, how shallow do you push it to until you are uncomfortable about the amount of water under the keel.2) When you are in a protected mooring, what is the minimum amount of water under the keel that will allow you a good nights sleep.Thanks,ScottH33 Sunset Chaser

 

[sailaway78]

I am tidal here

so also have to watch the tide stage, and forecast. Basically if I am anchoring at dead low tide, and not much wind forecast, I will go as shallow as having 2' under me. Don't know your location, but I would not go under 2', at the lowest water you can expect. And don't forget, a strong breeze from the wrong direction can drop the water levels, even in a large lake the wind can effect the water level.

 

[Brian]

Scott - your starting to twitch

It would appear that you can hardly wait to get that new Hunter in the water -As far as water under the keel - no problems on georgian Bay - Its the rock that will kill you! - There are at least 100 anchorages within 30 miles of your marina and everyone of them will have boats of all shapes and sizes in them that will give you confidence about anchoring and overniting - virtually all are in the 10 to 25 foot depth range. You will notice when you visit that some of the larger boats (like a C&C 41 that draws almost 8')will pick different places than the bulk of the boats that draw 5'I would suggest that you pick up a couple of things now and do some homeworkThere is a great DVD on all of Georgian Bay / Lake Huron that is very informative - There is a cruising book "Ports" that is updated every year or two and has great info on all the anchorages and marinas - I'd also start with a paper chart of southern Georgian Bay (include Christian Island and Go Home Bay) so you can mark some things down for quick refence. Mason's can help you with this stuff for about $125 and it might give you something to keep you occupied for another week or two.I assume that your new Hunter does have some sort of GPS with the correct chip. if its a C-80 - then it probably has the Eastern Great Lakes chip -which is OKYes I'm at Bayport

 

[Scott B]

Twitch ---- I'm vibrating

We'll be in BayMoorings, have joined the GBHSA already, and am driving Angus Yachts crazy dying to get the boat up from Port Credit and in the water. Yes, I'm way beyond starting to twitch. This is something we've been dreaming about for 25 years and finally it's happening. ( My wife just put in, you don't know the half of it)I have the 2202 charts from Port Severn to Parry Sound, we have friends with a cottage near Honey Harbour that we have rented for the past several years, so I'm very familiar with the area up to the top end of Beausoliel and beyond. I was looking at the chanel on the east side of Roberts Island up past Picnic Island to get to Honey Harbour. Part of the chanel has depths marked as 7 - 8 ft. and I was concerned about bottoming out along there. Other concern was getting into some of the anchorages and watching the depths along the way.The boat has a Raymarine 435i chartplotter, but I don't know what chip is in it yet. ( we've only been in the boat twice so far) BayMoorings told us that there is a brand new set of charts out this year? so will end up replacing that and getting more charts. Apparantly the DVD / book is a new release as well and she is waiting to get more.I've been doing as much homework, trying to learn the boat systems etc. so we can hit the water running. Last thing I want to be doing on a sunny weekend in June is being tied to the dock trying to figure out the boat.BTW I'll be up April 21 to Bay Port for their seminar on cruising Georgian Bay.

 

[Bill]

Outside the specifics...

You guys are talking specifics, but in general- knowing what kind of bottom you are dealing with is helpful. A nudge in sand or mud- not serious, hitting rocks or a reef- not good.Fwiw, I will not go anywhere that doesn't leave at least 24" under the keel, unless it's a marina... then I prefer not to sit on the bottom.B

 

[Fred]

Mud bottom is very forgiving

You don't have to worry much even if you go aground hard enough to tip the boat.This is not a recomendation, just a word that if you wake up tipped over a bit, don't get upset. Use it as an excuse to get close to your sweetie. "Honey, we may be stuck here for a few hours. Isn't it cosy with us both on the low side? Have you ever tried Mimosas before breakfast?" (Mimosa recipe - 3 parts Champagne, 1 part orange juice)For shallow water adventures, THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN A RISING TIDE!!!!!!Pay attention to your tide book. Do the dicey bits on a rising tide. If you stick, you will float off soon.

 

[higgs]

Traveled from Killarny to Midland

Just did this passage last summer. The small boat route through the 30,000 islands I found very demanding and the bottom was not always mud. From Perry Sound to Midland was probably the easiest passage. Drawing 5 ft many locals advised me to go on the outside from Byng Inlet to Point au Baril.While in Britt, a skipper of a large power boat left on a very windy day going north. He said he drifted about 5 feet out of the channel - less than 10 miles out of Britt - and hit a rock and started taking on water. He made it back to Britt where they had to haul the boat with the prop strut shoved back through the bottom of the boat. His props looked like mushrooms. This was a guy who had brought the boat up from Florida - so he had a lot of miles under his keel. Locals told me that anyone who spends anytime in G Bay's channels will run aground eventually. As I said, the route from Perry Sound to Midland was the most forgiving, so if you stick to that area I would say you will be fine. Less rock south of Perry Sound. That said you really should keep heading north and go on into the North Channel. Plan to spend several weeks there. It is world class cruising grounds standing toe to toe with the BVI etc. You are indeed fortunate to be sailing this area - by far the best in the Great lakes.

 

[Scott B]

stay in the channel

I've been in this area for many years on a 18' powerboat and the first rule is stay in the channel unless you have "local knowledge". Fortunately I do know the area, but have dinged a few props myself. We once pulled a 36ft. stinkboat out of a shallow, rocky area after he missed a slight turn to port and took out his outdrives.Good point about Byng Outlet to Point au Baril. I imagine for the most part we'll be out in the Bay and head in for anchoring. Looking at the charts I have noticed some areas are fairly shallow leading into some interesting spots and was curious how close to push it.

 

[Scott B]

stay in the channel

I've been in this area on a 18' powerboat and rule number one is stay in the channel, unless you have "local knowledge" Fortunatly I know the area, but have dinged a few props over the years. We pulled a 36' stinkboat off a shallow rocky area when he missed a turn to port and took out his outdrives.For the most part I assume we'll be in the big Bay and head into the Islands to anchor. There are a few areas of shallow water that lead to some interesting areas, with deeper water, that I'd like to check out. My concern is how far to push it getting into these areas.That streatch from Byng to Point au Baril is tight and winding, if it the spot I thinking, and not hospitable for a keel boat.I've been on several canoe trips just off the North Channel in Kilarney Prov. Park and can't wait to get into that area from the water.

 

[Scott]

Scott, you should no better than Fred ...

There aren't any tides in the Great Lakes are there? Nick, does that pedestal swivel or am I looking at something wrong?

 

[Scott B]

No tides

Scott, no there aren't any tides in the Great Lakes until you get to the mouth of the St. Lawrence, but that's way far away.That's the new folding Lewmar wheel Hunter's putting on their boats. Gives you more room in the cockpit while docked / anchored.Nick, yea, I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas.

 

[Scott]

Which way is the picture facing?

Are we looking at the stern of the boat? Or is that a really low coach roof?

 

[higgs]

Pushing it

There were a number of times during my North C/Georgian Bay trip where I used a lead line and crept along at a half knot. When crew was aboard we would post a watch on the bow. We found those family radio sets to be very helpful in these situations. Trouble with a depth sounder is they will read off weeds.At a half knot, even if you hit, it won't do damage and you will be able to back off the object/bottom.

 

[higgs]

Scott - one more thing

joining the Cruising Club of America could very well be worth your $. They have extensive and updated cruising guides for your area that often go into far more detail than Ports books, which are also good. I have been told it was this club that actually was behind getting the small boat channel bouyed by putting together local knowledge on where it ran.

 

[Scott]

Didn't mean to hijack the thread ...

But Nick posted that picture of the wheel pedestal and I am amazed at how low the coach roof appears on his Hunter. The visibility must be great! At first glance, I thought the view had a peek of the opening to the swim platform and thought the wheel was facing backwards! *oScott, if you are anchoring over mud, I would get a good nights sleep unless swinging on the anchor can put you on the rocks somewhere. Without the tide to lift you; however, consider that if you get really stuck, you could need a tow. Have you got that covered?

 

[Malcolm Young]

Some more suggestions

I have cruised Georgian Bay and the North Channel quite a lot and have a few suggestions. An overall note: Make sure you know exactly whether your depth sounder has an offset or is set to the exact depth. I once charted a boat that read more depth than there actually was - we went aground, fortunately at very low speed on sand. Unfortunately, as you know the East side of Georgian Bay is almost all rocks, ledges and hazards - you will not be so lucky if you go aground.1. Regarding comfort level for water under the keel - when navigating in charted channels with navigational aids I have quite a bit of comfort - my wife and I keep an eagle eye on where we are in the channels relative to the numbered buoys and we use the ranges provided and of course the chart plotter. You have done this in your powerboat so I am sure you will be OK.- if you are navigating in hazardous waters that are somewhat charted but have no navigational aids, we identify the charted hazards and if possible use danger bearings (bearings that you either stay within or outside) and also natural ranges. In addition, my wife goes to the bow with poloroid sun glasses to watch for rocks (hopefully with the sun behind her). We also watch the GPS carefully, however one must be clear on the fact that it is unwise to trust it completely in close quarters particularly when the charts are incomplete as the charts on your chart plotter will also be incomplete and are often in these type of waters wrong.- if want to go into hazardous bays/passages that have not been sounded at all - we generally don't enter them unless we have information from the cruising guide or can get local knowledge or we might use our dinghy to explore first - one day I will get a depth sounder for the dinghy - it would be very useful. 2. Depth while anchored - if you don't have information from a reputable cruising guide (see below) then check the swing area for rocks and deadheads in your dinghy - if there are swinging hazards then put an anchor off your stern and tie off the bow to a tree or rock (or two) on shore (I prefer the bow to shore as your rudder is further away from hazards should your anchor drag),Some comments:- As has been mentioned, "The Ports Cruising Guide for Georgian Bay, The North Channel and Lake Huron" is invaluable - it is clearly written, and contains information on a great many anchorages and all the ports. As well it contains many hints in anchoring, spiderwebbing yourself into an anchorage, etc. etc. I have remarked to many that I would pay twice the price (don't tell the publisher). A new version is due out this May - they update it every 3 years. (the majority of it is written by the daughter of George Hinterhoeller who built the Nonsuch, the Niagara and designed and built the Shark and Y-Flyer. She has cruised these waters since the 60's first with her parents and then with her husband.- you mentioned the Great Lake Cruising Club Guide - I have the volume for Lake Huron and the North Channel on loan from a friend for my review - to be honest I like the Ports Guide better, however the Cruising Guide is more detailed in some areas but I like the format and consistent approach of the Ports Guides. As you probably know, the GLCC guide is an expensive 4 binder set which covers all the Great Lakes. I suggest you look at a copy before you order it - I am still debating.- Using the intercoastal waterway up Georgian Bay.... You mentioned that you have the strip chart 2202, If you are going to the North Channel you will want the strip charts 2203 and 2204 as well. In addition as you will want to go out into the Bay and around the islands it is good to have the standard charts to get you in and out. The strip charts don't show the channels in and out of the intercoastal waterway. These channels and offshore ledges can be hazardous.- Now that we are talking about going out and around. It would be my advice to stay in the waterway up past Parry Sound to Pointe au Baril - it is protected, and picturesque. North of Pointe au Baril I always skip the intercoastal channels - in that area the intercoastal is poorly protected from wind and waves in this area and it is shallow in spots and you need to pay stict attention (make sure you have a recent version of the strip charts as the route has changed due to low water) - Instead, I go out into Georgian Bay and around it. Your boat is big enough to handle the big water. From Pointe au Baril on the way up the Bay I have gone into Byng Inlet and Britt - which is a long way in and worth a trip once (my opinion). A bit further on are the Bustards which are very nice and also the Bad River area which is good. Further up you can head into Beaverstone Bay and then Collins Inlet (the entry area from Beaverstone Bay to Collins Inlet may be as shallow as 5 feet over sand so you should pay attention to how much the water is above or below chart datum). Then you get into Killarney and the North Channel which is a whole story onto itself. The Ports Guide tells you all about Georgian bay and the North Channel and has good aerial pictures.I have rambled on enough - you can absorb years of time in the area. We will be in the North Channel again this summer.By the way did you get your Rocna anchor. I got mine and compared it to my CQR and it is easy to see why it would have more digging and holding ability in hard sand. I can't wait to try it out in weeds.

 

[Fred]

Oops, Great Lakes eh?

Georgian Bay sounds so.... East Coast. I thought it was in the Chesapeake.I have a lot of respect for Great Lakes Sailors. I know it's big water. No tide to help you out though.

 

[JohnnyMac]

Richardson's chartbook

and Ports is what I used for cruising Lake Huron and the North Channel. Richardson's is over 200 pages of charts. The fun part is when you turn a page you don't know whether the depth is going to be in feet, meters, or fathoms. As far as depth is concern, the feeling is relative. Almost all of Lake St. Clair is 9 feet. Coming up from Lake Erie, I went through the 9' of Lake St. Clair, to an overnight from Port Huron to Tobermorey. After spending all night at 400', I started to get nervous when the depth was 80'. Then I remembered that Lake Erie is never deeper than 50'.Last summer, Lake Huron was 2' above chart datum, which is huge for some of these thin channels. The key is staying in them. Keep an eye to your stern to make sure your are in the them.When anchoring, I think you will find more often that issue will be finding shallow enough water. In tight anchorages you will see alot of Bahama mooring with one end of the boat tie off to land. Buy a second anchor and plenty of rode.If you gunkhole in the Georgian Bay and the North Channel you will eventually tap a couple of rocks. When in doubt, go slow and have a watch on the bow. Last summer I made a piloting error and started into the wrong entrance to Bell Cove. I hit a couple of rocks, which felt major, but since I was only going 2 knots, I was able to tap out the dings in the keel with a body kit.

 

[Scott B]

Malcolm, excellent info

Good idea on the depth finder, I'll have to check that once we get wet. For the most part we'll stick to the charted areas that have a starting point for depths etc., but with this area in a lot of cases "you can't get there from here" due to rocks in the way. How often do you use two anchors vs. just one and swing. From what I recall at Killarney a lot of boats dropped two, bow and stern, to limit the swing.Thanks for the kudos on the "Ports". The marina highly suggested it and said to wait for the new one, it'll be on our list. I intend to get all the charts for the area, strip charts and general regions. I saw the continuation references on the strip charts and thanks forthe info on the other inlets and bays. It'll go into my reference on the boat. Couple of other questions.- we have friends with a cottage just below Goderich and were considering heading that way this summer. I figured that it would take min. 2 hard days of sailing / motoring to get there in good weather. Am I close?- If you head out into the lake, any issues with crossing over the "border line" into US water or do you only need to be concerned when landing and checking into US customs.- I am almost finished taking my VHF course at the local CPS and I am confused on the actual range of the VHF on the big lakes. The book says 40nm, but Sea Area A1 is only 20nm range, the instructor says maybe 30nm +/- as it is line of sight, and a Westmarine info page brought in by someone at the course indicates an areial at 30' above water will give you 28mi. I aks the instructor if there would be any issues in the middle of Lake Huron as it is 70-80 (?) mi. across, he didn't think so but I was not convinced by his answer. Have you had any issues with VHF reception out in the middle of Huron? I just got nmy Rocna last week, it's sitting in our Living Room wating to get up to the boat. I let you know how it performs during the summer.Oh, and keep rambling, I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate the amount of information and detail that is offered on this site.See you on the water.ScottH33 Sunset Chaser

 

[Scott B]

Fred, Georgian Bay is

here. Hit the satelite button to see the "live" version. No, not much in the way of tides.