This is somewhat of a repeat post and I apologize in advance...The question that I am having a hard time getting an answer to is how much weight (gear+people) dan a Cat 30 safely hold. I am sailing from San Diego to Two Harbors Catalina with a scout troop and we are in the process of determining the weight and balance of each boat. How much weight is safe to plan for and how much is too much?
How much is too much weight for a Cat 30?
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Hello, again.
You may well be advised to go back to your earlier question/topic and reread the responses. Nothing has changed, and the advice and cautions given to you were pretty straightforward.
Be safe and careful out there.
Stu
You may well be advised to go back to your earlier question/topic and reread the responses. Nothing has changed, and the advice and cautions given to you were pretty straightforward.
Be safe and careful out there.
Stu
Gents, for the sake of discussion Catalina sent me this reply today. "The cost guard does not require capacities for sail boats, so it is more a mater of having a clear enough cockpit that you can have access to the control lines. So you could have as many as 10 people on board if some of them stay below and rotate out to the cockpit so that it is not overly crowded. You could probably take more, but it becomes more of a mater of supervision at some point."
but surely you knew or could have guessed all of this yourself.
You are talking about Scouts, with little or (I am guessing) varied levels of inexperience, not a crew of experienced sailors with you. In one case, you are completely responsible for everyones welfare, the other you are a team tackling a problem as equals... ok, I give. I'm sure it will be fine... where is that cartoon of the guy beating his head against a wall.......
You are talking about Scouts, with little or (I am guessing) varied levels of inexperience, not a crew of experienced sailors with you. In one case, you are completely responsible for everyones welfare, the other you are a team tackling a problem as equals... ok, I give. I'm sure it will be fine... where is that cartoon of the guy beating his head against a wall.......
DS,
Reading this thread and your earlier one about taking the scouts on a trip, I have to say that at this point based on your questions, you should in the sake of good boating & safety, make a practice run or two without them.
Sometimes our passions can exceed our abilities or expectations. When I take children on my boat, which is not too often, I know from experience that you can't take just one. He will spend the day being constantly told to NOT do this, and NOT do that. Therefore, I always take two. This way they can bounce off one another and have a more enjoyable time.
With this in mind, I have also found that kids get bored very quickly on a sailboat. Kids also fatigue and may get grumpy and/or seasick after a time. Kids also become fearful at nite and want for their parents. There are exceptions, as some kids REALLY take to this type of adventure, but these are the exceptions.
In summation, do you really want to take on the responsibility for these kids? A cockpit/boat can become too small too quickly with four or more kids running around. Talk about your own fatigue factor in being captain & activities coordinator. Kids' battery power is greater than ours is.
As for me, I would first ply my trade and overnite sailing skills, and after doing so, take no more than three at a time with one other EXPERIENCED adult crew member who has made this trip. You’re the skipper and everyone's wellbeing is dependent upon you.
I say this in good spirit having many hours of distance sailing. Contact me thru PM, if you have any questions pal, and happy sailing, cause it’s all about the voyage.
CR
Reading this thread and your earlier one about taking the scouts on a trip, I have to say that at this point based on your questions, you should in the sake of good boating & safety, make a practice run or two without them.
Sometimes our passions can exceed our abilities or expectations. When I take children on my boat, which is not too often, I know from experience that you can't take just one. He will spend the day being constantly told to NOT do this, and NOT do that. Therefore, I always take two. This way they can bounce off one another and have a more enjoyable time.
With this in mind, I have also found that kids get bored very quickly on a sailboat. Kids also fatigue and may get grumpy and/or seasick after a time. Kids also become fearful at nite and want for their parents. There are exceptions, as some kids REALLY take to this type of adventure, but these are the exceptions.
In summation, do you really want to take on the responsibility for these kids? A cockpit/boat can become too small too quickly with four or more kids running around. Talk about your own fatigue factor in being captain & activities coordinator. Kids' battery power is greater than ours is.
As for me, I would first ply my trade and overnite sailing skills, and after doing so, take no more than three at a time with one other EXPERIENCED adult crew member who has made this trip. You’re the skipper and everyone's wellbeing is dependent upon you.
I say this in good spirit having many hours of distance sailing. Contact me thru PM, if you have any questions pal, and happy sailing, cause it’s all about the voyage.
CR
What utter nonsense. You ask the builder how many people the boat can hold in answer to a question which is completely different. Your real question is: Can I sail my boat to Catalina from SD with a bunch of kids on board.
How is the builder supposed to know your qualifications?
Based on your initial post and question, it appears you don't have much experience sailing your boat. I don't recall what experience you have sailing, at all. You may be an experienced sailor of small boats, so maybe you can sail, but asking a question like this seems to indicate you don't have either the ability and/or the confidence.
And you're not gonna gain any confidence from typing away on this message board.
YOU and you alone, have to make this call. Catalina Yachts can't answer it for you. I was about to say "We can't either," but I'm sure after this second go 'round in asking the same question that you can't either.
You might want to ask yourself these questions:
Have you singlehanded your boat? Regularly?
Have you practiced going out on your boat with this group of kids?
Do you know how they will do on the boat?
Is any other adult going with you?
What are their sailing qualifications?
What safety gear do you have on the boat?
How long have you owned the boat? Do you do your own maintenance? Do you know how to fix an overheating engine? (If you have an M25 diesel, I can think of at least three basic overheating issues that would need to be diagnosed and could be fixed when away from the dock. Do you know what they are and how to fix them?)
When was the last time you changed the diesel fuel filters?
How big is you life raft/dinghy? Can it hold everyone on board if the sh*t hits the fan?
You know, things like that.
LuzD's offline messages to you were quite thoughtful and appreciative of your issues. I sure hope you'll take them in the spirit they were given, as well as our earlier replies to your first post with this question.
One final question: If you were one of the scout's parents and you found out that the skipper was asking this question, twice, on a public forum, would you let your kid go with this guy?
Re: Is it OK to mislead people to get the answer I want?
+1 what Stu said..I was trying to keep my mouth shut & I probably wouldn't have been as nice if I'd let my fingers fly around on the keyboard.
Wanting to do something fun & adventurous for a Scout troop is one thing. Putting them in danger due to a large list of possible unforeseen circumstances, especially (for the sake of argument) when you carefully word your question(s) and are untruthful about your intentions to a boat manufacturer, is entirely different.
dstaylor...I think you need to think LONG & HARD about this..you are not giving anyone here....wait, I should not speak for others...you are not giving me a good feeling that you can handle this with any level of confidence. Additionally, I think you are looking for someone to give you the answer you want, instead of what you really need to be thinking about...the safety of every passenger aboard YOUR boat when YOU are in charge!
Ok..I am done. *zip*
+1 what Stu said..I was trying to keep my mouth shut & I probably wouldn't have been as nice if I'd let my fingers fly around on the keyboard.
Wanting to do something fun & adventurous for a Scout troop is one thing. Putting them in danger due to a large list of possible unforeseen circumstances, especially (for the sake of argument) when you carefully word your question(s) and are untruthful about your intentions to a boat manufacturer, is entirely different.
dstaylor...I think you need to think LONG & HARD about this..you are not giving anyone here....wait, I should not speak for others...you are not giving me a good feeling that you can handle this with any level of confidence. Additionally, I think you are looking for someone to give you the answer you want, instead of what you really need to be thinking about...the safety of every passenger aboard YOUR boat when YOU are in charge!
Ok..I am done. *zip*
So glad that I am not the only one here that is so concerned. Try as I might I can't get over how much is missing in these conversations and in the questions being asked or at minimum brought up for discussion.
dstayor, you mention to me in the PM that you have been doing short practices but those trips are what... a couple hours at most and are you doing it in the dark, by yourself (you are basically on your own for all intent and purpose with the scouts). I would feel so much better if you were thinking and planning for events like....you fell overboard.......IT HAPPENS, and to people here, what would your scouts do?? Even if you took another adult, what would THEY do? Why not make this a two year (or yearlong) project and do some actual practices, get them comfortable driving, maintaining, packing the boat. Practice food prep, man overboard drills using someone’s hat, or? There are so many issues here. My kids were scouts and I know that they could really get something out of the experience if you made each step in the preparation a project in itself........and it culminated in a long weekend trip, not started there.
Please please see the concern that is displayed here, it is not for the sake of an interesting debate, it hold the real possibility disaster. As a responsible adult you must work through all possible scenarios and then relax with the success of a safe and wonderful trip.
dstayor, you mention to me in the PM that you have been doing short practices but those trips are what... a couple hours at most and are you doing it in the dark, by yourself (you are basically on your own for all intent and purpose with the scouts). I would feel so much better if you were thinking and planning for events like....you fell overboard.......IT HAPPENS, and to people here, what would your scouts do?? Even if you took another adult, what would THEY do? Why not make this a two year (or yearlong) project and do some actual practices, get them comfortable driving, maintaining, packing the boat. Practice food prep, man overboard drills using someone’s hat, or? There are so many issues here. My kids were scouts and I know that they could really get something out of the experience if you made each step in the preparation a project in itself........and it culminated in a long weekend trip, not started there.
Please please see the concern that is displayed here, it is not for the sake of an interesting debate, it hold the real possibility disaster. As a responsible adult you must work through all possible scenarios and then relax with the success of a safe and wonderful trip.
One more thought from me and I will stop: My kids both took a Marine Biology class in High School that was a coveted class because the class ended with a 10 day trip deep in Mexico and everything the kids learned all year helped them survive down there on that trip. There was no conversation about the trip during the year, but lots of intense labs and learning stats about all plant/sea life and what grew where in different regions. They broke into learning groups and all turned in huge project notebooks at the end. Those that passed went on the trip. They only took 1/2 of the food they'd need and they had to fish for the rest. They did their business with a shovel and a roll of paper. They bathed in the ocean and they cooked everything themselves. They learned how to get along with people they thought they had nothing in common with. They came home much different kids then they left. My point is, they needed to learn alot and earn the trip and they needed the prep in order to be strong enough to endure that long a trip in desolation. The instructor, by his methods, gave all of us parents confidence in his ability to lead our children in safety and that included them being knowledgeable about saving themselves. Similarly, I firmly believe you have an opportunity to make this epic in your scout’s lives, not just a boat ride to Catalina.
Thanks everyone for the guidance and concern. There was nothing untruthful about the question, I was simply asking if there was a specific weight that can be used as a point of reference when packing a boat. I have packed my boat for an extended sail with my family and some friends and know what it feels like, but never put a number to it. This inquiry, as to a number, came about from planning stages of the trip in respect to gear, food, etc that was going to be allocated for each crew member.
For what it is worth I would like to briefly answer the questions that were posed. I have been sailing larger boats for some time, I singlehand most of the time and I do most of the routine maintenance on the engine. By no means am I a boat maker, diesel mechanic or rigger but I enjoy learning about the boat from working on it and sailing it both day and night. There has been a practice run to two harbors from San Diego without scouts involved, the only caveat is that it was not on my boat. Other crew members have made far greater runs than I. The scouts that I am referencing are 16 years+ Eagle Scouts and have had various experience with sailing to include sailing to Two Harbors from SD. The scouts are considered part of the crew and will have responsibilities both in preparation and under weigh but with supervision at all times. We have had numerous practices out on the water and many still to come over the summer. We have established go/no go criteria based on the weather, boats and crew as well as divert plans. We will have 3 30"+ boats in the armada. Each boat will have a minimum of 2 sailing experienced adults on onboard, with most of the experience derived as sailing instructors at the Naval Academy. Each boat will have three adults and 2-3 scouts. This will allow supervision, experience throughout the crew and watch standers. No more than six people on my boat is the limit for an extended sail. The USCG has inspected each boat for safety. Although we cannot plan for every contingency, we are planning for as many as we can think of. A large part of the evolution is the planning process with the scouts. Every question and concern that has been asked in this forum has been discussed with the 9 other "experienced" adults that will be making the trip along with the scouts. Maybe I should of prefaced the weight question with more background information. I disagree with the notion that i am misleading anyone to get the answer I want, that is as ridiculous as having 10 people on the boat as per Catalina's response. It is my boat and those onboard are my responsibility. I take this responsibility seriously and i truly appreciate the concern. All your comments have been heard. Thanks again, if you think of anything else let me know.
For what it is worth I would like to briefly answer the questions that were posed. I have been sailing larger boats for some time, I singlehand most of the time and I do most of the routine maintenance on the engine. By no means am I a boat maker, diesel mechanic or rigger but I enjoy learning about the boat from working on it and sailing it both day and night. There has been a practice run to two harbors from San Diego without scouts involved, the only caveat is that it was not on my boat. Other crew members have made far greater runs than I. The scouts that I am referencing are 16 years+ Eagle Scouts and have had various experience with sailing to include sailing to Two Harbors from SD. The scouts are considered part of the crew and will have responsibilities both in preparation and under weigh but with supervision at all times. We have had numerous practices out on the water and many still to come over the summer. We have established go/no go criteria based on the weather, boats and crew as well as divert plans. We will have 3 30"+ boats in the armada. Each boat will have a minimum of 2 sailing experienced adults on onboard, with most of the experience derived as sailing instructors at the Naval Academy. Each boat will have three adults and 2-3 scouts. This will allow supervision, experience throughout the crew and watch standers. No more than six people on my boat is the limit for an extended sail. The USCG has inspected each boat for safety. Although we cannot plan for every contingency, we are planning for as many as we can think of. A large part of the evolution is the planning process with the scouts. Every question and concern that has been asked in this forum has been discussed with the 9 other "experienced" adults that will be making the trip along with the scouts. Maybe I should of prefaced the weight question with more background information. I disagree with the notion that i am misleading anyone to get the answer I want, that is as ridiculous as having 10 people on the boat as per Catalina's response. It is my boat and those onboard are my responsibility. I take this responsibility seriously and i truly appreciate the concern. All your comments have been heard. Thanks again, if you think of anything else let me know.
dstaylor95, your post gives me such relief, thank you for (finally :cry
giving us a more complete picture AND for directly responding to all of our escalating concerns. Eagle Scouts? as opposed to 'scouts' ... practice trips to Two Harbors?..at night? as opposed to a couple practice trips to the Coronados Is.!! Single handing regularly,at night as well? Gosh DS, why didn't you just say that from the beginning? If you look back at your posts (original ones on this subject, maybe 4+ mo. ago) you gave none of this detail and even today, you mentioned to me that you were doing practice runs.......to the Coronados... about a 2 hour trip. Honestly, I am so relieved but feel that you were representing yourself in a very odd and close to a deceptive way and I am confused by that. But happy it points more toward the thinking and planning that we all saw as missing.
I am going to retire from this conversation, it has been a bit exhausting really. Have a great time. I have to tell you though, you have me curious and I will be looking at every Cat.30 on the SD Bay trying to figure out if you are the one.
giving us a more complete picture AND for directly responding to all of our escalating concerns. Eagle Scouts? as opposed to 'scouts' ... practice trips to Two Harbors?..at night? as opposed to a couple practice trips to the Coronados Is.!! Single handing regularly,at night as well? Gosh DS, why didn't you just say that from the beginning? If you look back at your posts (original ones on this subject, maybe 4+ mo. ago) you gave none of this detail and even today, you mentioned to me that you were doing practice runs.......to the Coronados... about a 2 hour trip. Honestly, I am so relieved but feel that you were representing yourself in a very odd and close to a deceptive way and I am confused by that. But happy it points more toward the thinking and planning that we all saw as missing.I am going to retire from this conversation, it has been a bit exhausting really. Have a great time. I have to tell you though, you have me curious and I will be looking at every Cat.30 on the SD Bay trying to figure out if you are the one.
Dear Mr. Taylor, Thank you for your detailed response and explanation. I am sure many of us feel Patti's relief in finally finding out your more detailed plans, which make a lot more sense, and fill in a lot of the BIG blanks that have had so many of us concerned...on your behalf. We wish you all the best, safe journey, fair winds. Take some pictures and show us how it went. Stu
Whew..relief here too..sorry if i seemed a little harsh..it is all about keeping everyone safe.
Thanks for taking the time to address our concerns.
Cheers!
Thanks for taking the time to address our concerns.
Cheers!
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