How much heal and what color sheets?
- Thread starter catalanc
- Start date
Yeah... that was kind of confusing.. I was thinking more of sailors who remove their sails and stow them in a bag. When I acquired my boat years ago, the P.O. had a single line sheet for each of the three head sails in the locker... which he left attached with the cow hitch... A small dinghy sail.... not a big deal. But, on a mid size boat, to stuff your sail and its 100 ft single line 3/8" sheet together into a bag is pure stupidity. The other issue was sorting the sailbags in the locker... they weighed twice as much and the coiled rope acted like a tennis shoe in the dryer.
I had a boat with roller furling a while back and I removed the good sheets when I left the boat between visits... stored them inside.. and used a sacrificial line to secure the sail. It's actually quite easy to do.. just pull the sail out far enough to take off the sheets and attach the new line... the roll it back up... I guarantee your sheets will stay looking fresh for many, many years if you take a few minutes to do that.
If I knew I was going to be away for more than a month or two... I would remove the sail also... roll it up and stow down below. There are some sailors who don't even know that the headsail on a roller furling unit can be easily removed if they do it regularly. There's at least 4 boats on my dock alone who have NEVER taken their sails off the RF in the 17 years I have been here. If you even touch the UV strip it will start crumbling. Pathetic. If you don't sail your boat... take the damn sails off instead of letting them waste away in the elements.
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For the OP:
Reef your mainsail. Before you go out. It''s always easier to shake the reef out than put one in.
Buy Don Guillette's excellent Sail Trim book, available right here on this website, look under Store, Books, scroll down. Best sail trim book I have ever read, and I've been sailing for 55 years.
OK, here's the link: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998/Sail+Trim+Users+Guide
Reef your mainsail. Before you go out. It''s always easier to shake the reef out than put one in.
Buy Don Guillette's excellent Sail Trim book, available right here on this website, look under Store, Books, scroll down. Best sail trim book I have ever read, and I've been sailing for 55 years.
OK, here's the link: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998/Sail+Trim+Users+Guide
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Well I have read all these posts and they make pretty good sense. First, I will likely replace my headsail sheets with a single solid blue sheet, cow hitch to the clew. That is how the old sheets are attached now so I'll just keep it the same.
Now for the heel, I was mainly asking because I have this paranoid delusion that the boat will flip and I will find myself in the water watching her sail away. Based on the responses, I will need to go a bit beyond 30˚ before I get concerned. Now for the control part, I sail solo most of the time so the idea of simply letting out the main for control of heel will be the best approach for me. I have a furler so I reef the foresail when it gets a bit windy, but leave the main in full. Guess I'll need to learn how to reef this one as well ...
Just to confirm, no need to let out the foresail to decrease heel quickly, yes? That would make my life a lot easier, newbie that I am. A couple more hours of work and I will then get out on the lake to test out these newly learned approaches.
Thanks for all the help,
cec
Now for the heel, I was mainly asking because I have this paranoid delusion that the boat will flip and I will find myself in the water watching her sail away. Based on the responses, I will need to go a bit beyond 30˚ before I get concerned. Now for the control part, I sail solo most of the time so the idea of simply letting out the main for control of heel will be the best approach for me. I have a furler so I reef the foresail when it gets a bit windy, but leave the main in full. Guess I'll need to learn how to reef this one as well ...
Just to confirm, no need to let out the foresail to decrease heel quickly, yes? That would make my life a lot easier, newbie that I am. A couple more hours of work and I will then get out on the lake to test out these newly learned approaches.
Thanks for all the help,
cec
I'm pretty new at this myself (2 yr), but I think I'm pretty safe to say it's not wind that will capsize a boat, it's wind+waves. The longer I sail the more comfortable it gets being laid over. it goes from being scary to being fun pretty quickly
Paranoid delusions are what keep you safe, but don't let them keep you up at night, and by all means don't let them guide you. Hours in front of the tiller will help you understand how much of the rail goes in the water, and when to ease the main a bit to get it back in control.
When the rail is in the water, and the trim is such that you've got two fingers on the tiller, you're there.
When the rail is in the water, and the trim is such that you've got two fingers on the tiller, you're there.
http://www.sailingworld.com/how-to/striking-balanced-helm
excellent longer, detailed discussion on heel and sail trim, but excerpted below appears critical to your question:
Controlling heel angle when overpowered is completely different; it’s done primarily with sail trim. The Thistle has a huge main; we are at max hike in about 9 knots of breeze, and we are hiking just as hard in 18 knots. Through the entire range, we adjust the sails to keep the boat balanced, trimming in the lulls and easing in the puffs, all while fully hiked. The J/24 genoa is big; for puffs we ease it as often as the main, and then we trim in both sails for a lull. I usually have my hand on the genoa winch handle and grind it in before I pull in the main. I also pull on the backstay in a puff in the J/24, and ease it in a lull, and occasionally I will play the traveler. Adjustments will vary from boat to boat, but the overall concept is universal; once we are already hiking, we constantly adjust our sails to keep that constant angle of heel.
And I would suggest in puffs or lulls you manage the main sheet -- if you need to de-power across a longer duration then Reef: aka: reduce sail area on both the jib and main. For those using furling of some ilk-- roll some up. It's all about balance.....
excellent longer, detailed discussion on heel and sail trim, but excerpted below appears critical to your question:
Controlling heel angle when overpowered is completely different; it’s done primarily with sail trim. The Thistle has a huge main; we are at max hike in about 9 knots of breeze, and we are hiking just as hard in 18 knots. Through the entire range, we adjust the sails to keep the boat balanced, trimming in the lulls and easing in the puffs, all while fully hiked. The J/24 genoa is big; for puffs we ease it as often as the main, and then we trim in both sails for a lull. I usually have my hand on the genoa winch handle and grind it in before I pull in the main. I also pull on the backstay in a puff in the J/24, and ease it in a lull, and occasionally I will play the traveler. Adjustments will vary from boat to boat, but the overall concept is universal; once we are already hiking, we constantly adjust our sails to keep that constant angle of heel.
And I would suggest in puffs or lulls you manage the main sheet -- if you need to de-power across a longer duration then Reef: aka: reduce sail area on both the jib and main. For those using furling of some ilk-- roll some up. It's all about balance.....
Thanks for all the input, guys. I went out yesterday in pretty windy conditions (for me) with main only. Easing out the mainsheet works pretty well to decrease heel, as you all suggested. Now I guess I need to modify the question ... how much heel is optimal for performance. Been reading on this and it seems that 20-22 degrees is best, in general. Any of you out there who sail 22 MK II's have ideas on this?
Catalanc: I think that maybe you are asking the wrong question, or at least focused maybe too much on "the number". I don't know if anyone can tell you whether it's 20-degrees, 22, 25, whatever - there are too many other variables like waves and chop and comfort of your crew.
I've been sailing about 5-years. We were knocked down by a gust on the "sea trial" - our very first time out - before we even bought the boat, terrifying our 2-young daughters, soaking my wife and the captain/broker, and enabling us to test the scuppers as they slowly drained water from the cockpit. I bought the boat anyway, and I've never experienced a similar problem. But, for years, my wife and kids would watch the gauge and start complaining whenever we approached 10-degrees, and howl loudly if we heeled more than 10-degrees.
We bought our 2nd, newer model, C22 about a year ago. The first thing I did was to remove the gauge that the PO had installed. That changed everything. No more focus on "the number". The discussions are now much less frequent and more about control and their comfort. I sail conservatively with my family, and reserve my adrenaline rush for Saturday racing in our C22 fleet with a buddy. I also give my wife and kids the jib sheets - they get to decide when the heel is too much for their comfort and can ease the sheet to spill air.
My suggestion - focus on control and comfort. Like you, I mostly sail on an inland lake that can be gusty. Watch your overall conditions and especially the wind, how it hits other boats, how it affects flags and trees, and how it effects the water surface (polarized sun glasses really help to see the wind disturbances on the water surface). I personally think less than about 20-degrees is best, I ease the sheets in a heavy gust (when in doubt, let 'em out), and I watch the conditions constantly. 30-degrees heel in a steady wind may be just fine, but in variable wind, the next gust or increase in wind speed may mean trouble.
Welcome to C22 sailing - always great when we get a convert from the motoring side of boating. Enjoy the new freedoms and challenges of sailing.
- Bob
I've been sailing about 5-years. We were knocked down by a gust on the "sea trial" - our very first time out - before we even bought the boat, terrifying our 2-young daughters, soaking my wife and the captain/broker, and enabling us to test the scuppers as they slowly drained water from the cockpit. I bought the boat anyway, and I've never experienced a similar problem. But, for years, my wife and kids would watch the gauge and start complaining whenever we approached 10-degrees, and howl loudly if we heeled more than 10-degrees.
We bought our 2nd, newer model, C22 about a year ago. The first thing I did was to remove the gauge that the PO had installed. That changed everything. No more focus on "the number". The discussions are now much less frequent and more about control and their comfort. I sail conservatively with my family, and reserve my adrenaline rush for Saturday racing in our C22 fleet with a buddy. I also give my wife and kids the jib sheets - they get to decide when the heel is too much for their comfort and can ease the sheet to spill air.
My suggestion - focus on control and comfort. Like you, I mostly sail on an inland lake that can be gusty. Watch your overall conditions and especially the wind, how it hits other boats, how it affects flags and trees, and how it effects the water surface (polarized sun glasses really help to see the wind disturbances on the water surface). I personally think less than about 20-degrees is best, I ease the sheets in a heavy gust (when in doubt, let 'em out), and I watch the conditions constantly. 30-degrees heel in a steady wind may be just fine, but in variable wind, the next gust or increase in wind speed may mean trouble.
Welcome to C22 sailing - always great when we get a convert from the motoring side of boating. Enjoy the new freedoms and challenges of sailing.
- Bob
Thanks for the suggestions, Bob and everyone else. As it turns out, numbers are indeed overemphasized in my head. Was out yesterday with my wife and it got windy pretty fast. I felt challenged, but felt I had things under control, letting out the main as suggested with success. Decided to head in because it was getting blustery, made my turn back and was doing OK. Main out, riding pretty flat, and then a gust knocked us over. My wife caught the whole thing on video with her iPhone so we have a record for posterity. Actually not as terrifying as I imagined though it seemed to take forever to right herself. I was standing on the bulkhead .. any suggestions on how to make this happen faster?
Lost a solar panel and my tiller, both of which needed replacing anyway. Also need to replace one of the port lights and dry her out. Fun part was motoring back and guiding her into the slip without a tiller. Wind was non existent once I was docked, of course. Overall a very interesting day.
Lost a solar panel and my tiller, both of which needed replacing anyway. Also need to replace one of the port lights and dry her out. Fun part was motoring back and guiding her into the slip without a tiller. Wind was non existent once I was docked, of course. Overall a very interesting day.
Catalanc:
Sorry to hear about the knock-down; but, at least now you’ve experienced the limits of the boat. It sounds like you guys took it well. Knock-downs happen - one of the most experienced sailors in our C-22 fleet had a knock-down last fall - he went overboard, but his son was able to hang-on and help him back aboard. Which brings us to another point - life jackets: wear them! Sailing is a bit more unpredictable than motor-boating - wear your life jackets and insist that your crew does the same. Sorry for this long reply - I didn't have time to write a short one.
I checked Windfinder (nice app - you should get it) for your wind conditions yesterday. For some reason, I couldn’t find data for Saturday; but, I looked at the recorded wind for the past week. Your typical measured gusts at Dillon Lake have been about 16-kts, with a few in the range of 20-kts. These are challenging, but not severe conditions - and they shouldn’t typically result in a knock-down. Something else is wrong here - I’ve got to think that you simply have too much sail out for your conditions.
So, just a couple of really basic, simple, points to revisit:
Hey, if you get a chance, your wife’s video of your knockdown would be useful to others and, heck, just good entertainment. Can you post it to YouTube or something and share the link with us?
Sorry to hear about the knock-down; but, at least now you’ve experienced the limits of the boat. It sounds like you guys took it well. Knock-downs happen - one of the most experienced sailors in our C-22 fleet had a knock-down last fall - he went overboard, but his son was able to hang-on and help him back aboard. Which brings us to another point - life jackets: wear them! Sailing is a bit more unpredictable than motor-boating - wear your life jackets and insist that your crew does the same. Sorry for this long reply - I didn't have time to write a short one.
I checked Windfinder (nice app - you should get it) for your wind conditions yesterday. For some reason, I couldn’t find data for Saturday; but, I looked at the recorded wind for the past week. Your typical measured gusts at Dillon Lake have been about 16-kts, with a few in the range of 20-kts. These are challenging, but not severe conditions - and they shouldn’t typically result in a knock-down. Something else is wrong here - I’ve got to think that you simply have too much sail out for your conditions.
So, just a couple of really basic, simple, points to revisit:
- Weather: get an app like Windfinder or similar, and check your wind conditions / forecast before going out. If it’s too challenging, take a pass and hit it another day. For a long time, I didn’t like to sail if it was >10-kts. I’ve since been out in 30-kts, had a blast, but wouldn’t want to do that regularly. Pick and choose your sailing window.
- Keel: this should be fully down and extended - all the way down, all the time. And, lock the keel in place using the bolt under the forward dinette seat (yes, people debate whether doing so really buys you any additional safety - it takes a few seconds to do it, so I’ll error on the side of being overly prepared). Yes, you can safely motor - no sails up - with the keel retracted; but, to make keel safety part of your sailing muscle memory, think about having your keel down when you are underway.
- Reefing: I reread this thread and there was one other mention of reefing - it’s really important and needs to be reemphasized. You are still new and learning, so I would suggest reefing your mainsail before leaving the dock. Reefing has nothing to do with what you folks legalized up there in Colorado - it is simply reducing the area of your mainsail, in response to wind conditions / forecasts, by dropping it a bit and tying off the excess bottom of the sail to the boom. Your mainsail should have a line of grommets for this purpose about a 12 to 18-inches above the foot of the sail. Some sailors put in a second set of grommets further up so that they can reduce the sail area even further (a second reef) for heavy air conditions. Rig a reefing line, and try this. The saying goes something like “if you are thinking about reefing, you’re probably already too late”. Reef early … or, again, reef before you leave the dock. If, after sailing awhile, you find conditions to be just fine, shake the reef out and raise the main all the way. Learn to reef - it’s highly useful. Some boats need to reef at about 10 to 15-kts to be stable - our C-22s are not so tender; but, even so, I know plenty of guys that will reef their C-22 at about 15-kts. It is prudent.
- Pigtail: probably really obvious, but your mainsail should be detached from the pigtail on the backstay when sailing. Local lore has it that a C-22 rests at the bottom of our lake (Lake Pleasant, AZ) because a skipper forgot to release the pigtail (and had a lazarette propped open).
- Foresail: you have a roller furler. Given the amount of heel that you’ve been experiencing and the knock-down that you’ve had, it sounds to me like you have too much foresail out. If you are making hull speed - about 5.6-kts - more sail isn’t buying you anything more. Try using a lot less foresail - a full foresail is larger than the mainsail, and a C-22 gets more of its power from the foresail than the mainsail. If you are experiencing a gust, ease the foresail too - and if its a strong gust, ease both the full and the main a lot until you are more comfortable in controlling the boat … even if it means you loose speed along the way … it’s better than an unplanned swim. I will sometimes just spill air - let them way out until the gust passes. You also mentioned that it’s difficult to release the jib sheet under tension - there are some nice cleat upgrades available that make this pretty easy. My earlier C-22 had nice cam cleats - I simply needed to yank the jib sheet UP (I wasn’t pulling against the force of the sail) to release it. Upgrade your cleats if needed to make it easier to quickly release the jib sheet - it’s an inexpensive upgrade.
- Foresail only: It’s perfectly okay to sail with just ONE sail - not both. In windy or gusty conditions, some sailors will sail with just their mainsail - no foresail, or with just their foresail and not the mainsail. Your boat tops out at 5.6-kts - no amount of wind or horsepower will make it go faster - and you’ll find in heavy air, with just one sail up, you will move along at 4 or 5-kts pretty nicely … and you’ll do it flat and safely.
- Scuppers: the older style C-22s had scuppers that were prone to clogging with debris and were slow to drain. If knock-downs are a real risk, keep you scuppers clear and clean - easy to do and easy to periodically test - and there are a number of upgrades available. After about 1985, the C-22s had larger scuppers that easily drained through the transom. Point being, you can take on a lot of water in the cockpit in a knock-down - make sure it can drain as quickly as possible - for stability and comfort.
- Lazarette lids: if these come open during a knockdown, water can rapidly enter the cabin and cause real problems, like sinking. Put simple snap shackles or something in place to preclude these from coming open.
- Sailing Clubs: Consider joining the Dillon Lake Yacht club and meet other sailors that are familiar with your local conditions. Go out with some of the C-22 sailors in the club, or take them out on your boat - there’s no better way to learn. Consider joining their racing fleet - I was purely a “cruiser” for several years; but, started racing (I’m not very good at it) a year or so ago because it forces me to sail on a schedule in varying conditions, and enabled me to meet a lot of really good C-22 sailors, which helped me improve my sailing. Also, the local marina in Dillon rents C-22s - there may be a few C-22 experts to be found there, too.
Hey, if you get a chance, your wife’s video of your knockdown would be useful to others and, heck, just good entertainment. Can you post it to YouTube or something and share the link with us?
- Bob
got this off the yahoo s2 site
In steady conditions, and on the identical bearing......
set the sails in a steady wind, such that minimum heel, measure the boat speed, measure comfort of guests
then tighten in the sheets, to get to 5 degree heel, measure the boat speed, measure comfort of guests
tighten in the sails more, to get to 10 degrees heel, measure the boat speed, measure comfort of guests
repeat until you see the boat speed fall off, and your guests request to be let off the boat.
on a pc of paper (archaic, I know), plot the speed vs heel, vs comfort level.
on the curve find the best speed, and least heel that gets rid of the guests you want to be rid of.
That is the optimum boat heel. And makes you the optimum boat heel too.
lol.
In steady conditions, and on the identical bearing......
set the sails in a steady wind, such that minimum heel, measure the boat speed, measure comfort of guests
then tighten in the sheets, to get to 5 degree heel, measure the boat speed, measure comfort of guests
tighten in the sails more, to get to 10 degrees heel, measure the boat speed, measure comfort of guests
repeat until you see the boat speed fall off, and your guests request to be let off the boat.
on a pc of paper (archaic, I know), plot the speed vs heel, vs comfort level.
on the curve find the best speed, and least heel that gets rid of the guests you want to be rid of.
That is the optimum boat heel. And makes you the optimum boat heel too.
lol.
Woodster, love the approach!
Bob, thanks for all the info. I downloaded Windfinder, looks great. To address your comments/questions:
Yes, too much sail out. The foresail was fully furled but the entire main was deployed. It was not that bad when we went out but weather comes in pretty quickly. I have eyes and lines to reef the main but have not done that yet. Guess it's time to learn! Pigtail was detached; I have a wing keel. One thing is that the traveler was totally loose and flopping around (a separate story), but it was not moving when we were knocked over.
I was practicing letting out the main to minimize heel and it was working pretty well. I had just made a turn to head back to the marina due to increasing wind. Everything seemed to be fine, we were sailing flat (5˚ heel?) and I thought I was in control and was pretty relaxed. Big gust of wind and we were over before I knew what happened, mast in the water. My wife was in the cabin and I ended up standing on the gunwale. Took a few seconds to right and it was over. Lazarette's were closed and locked down with carabiner's and scuppers are clear so not too much water intake. My wife was wearing her life jacket; alas, I was not wearing mine ...
I have previously talked to the folks at the Dillon Yacht Club, and after my last two sails (the prior one was a bit windy as well) I have been thinking seriously about joining. I have the movie but don't really want to post on Facebook or Youtube. Lemmesee if I can find another way.
Thanks again to all for the help and advice.
cec
Bob, thanks for all the info. I downloaded Windfinder, looks great. To address your comments/questions:
Yes, too much sail out. The foresail was fully furled but the entire main was deployed. It was not that bad when we went out but weather comes in pretty quickly. I have eyes and lines to reef the main but have not done that yet. Guess it's time to learn! Pigtail was detached; I have a wing keel. One thing is that the traveler was totally loose and flopping around (a separate story), but it was not moving when we were knocked over.
I was practicing letting out the main to minimize heel and it was working pretty well. I had just made a turn to head back to the marina due to increasing wind. Everything seemed to be fine, we were sailing flat (5˚ heel?) and I thought I was in control and was pretty relaxed. Big gust of wind and we were over before I knew what happened, mast in the water. My wife was in the cabin and I ended up standing on the gunwale. Took a few seconds to right and it was over. Lazarette's were closed and locked down with carabiner's and scuppers are clear so not too much water intake. My wife was wearing her life jacket; alas, I was not wearing mine ...
I have previously talked to the folks at the Dillon Yacht Club, and after my last two sails (the prior one was a bit windy as well) I have been thinking seriously about joining. I have the movie but don't really want to post on Facebook or Youtube. Lemmesee if I can find another way.
Thanks again to all for the help and advice.
cec
You can post to YouTube and mark it private. Only those with a link can view... I'd like to see it also. We had a thunderstorm blow in yesterday too and I chose to sail into it with full sails up because I wanted the experience. It got interesting, but we weren't knocked down.
Looks like your jib halyard is a bit loose, shouldn't have bags on the front of the sail, otherwise looks like fun.
That's what I was saying at the first of the vid, that the halyard needed to be tightened up. I found out though that it was already tight, it's just that the luff is so long on that sail I couldn't get it tight enough in that wind to keep the sail flat. It doesn't have a wire in it so that's part of it.... It really bothered me and worsened the situation by deepening the draft.