I'm wondering how much halyard tension is typically required. My boat (C30) is recently acquired and needed quite a bit of work to get back into working order. When I raise the main, I cannot get enough tension (no winch -- that's still on the to-do list) to get the final 12-18 inches up. As a result, I use the cunningham to take the slack out of the bottom and make it look right. This effectively removes my cunningham from being used in higher winds since it's already maxed out for light to normal conditions. I thought that perhaps it's just not possible without a winch, but then I think about the jib halyard: it does have a winch, and I *can* get vertical wrinkles in it. To do so though, really scares me with all the creaking of the line (run back to cockpit) and effort it takes. I'm afraid that the halyard will snap! I normally stop when it's smooth, but I know it's not enough. In higher winds I can see "scalloping" along the luff where the hanks are bent on the stay. (Hopefully that's clear...) One day when trying to go up the mast, my mate could not lift me with the jib halyard+winch (we're both atheletic, 190 lbs) -- the line just would not move. Am I expecting too much in this regard? I don't think it's the sail track because the 1) the jib doesn't have one, and 2) the main comes *down* like greased lightning. The sheaves (top and bottom of mast) *seem* like they turn OK under light loads (when *starting* to raise the main or jib). The halyards themselves are again older and roughened up a bit, so also on the to-do list is to replace them. I'm hoping the combination of new halyard + winch will do it, but I just don't know. How much effort does it take anyone else? Paul
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Can't get it up.
When I first got my 30 Catalina, I noticed I couldn't get the luff tight. I felt the main wasn't travelling all the way to the top. The halyard was plenty tight. But things didn't look right. I later realized I was making a bonehead rookie mistake, I didn't fully release the mainsheet before raising the main. Then when I raised the main, it was prevented from going all the way up the track because of the mainsheet. Lesson? Raise the main, the tighten the mainsheet. Just a thought.
When I first got my 30 Catalina, I noticed I couldn't get the luff tight. I felt the main wasn't travelling all the way to the top. The halyard was plenty tight. But things didn't look right. I later realized I was making a bonehead rookie mistake, I didn't fully release the mainsheet before raising the main. Then when I raised the main, it was prevented from going all the way up the track because of the mainsheet. Lesson? Raise the main, the tighten the mainsheet. Just a thought.
Need a winch for the last inches
I think that's the case for most of us. If the halyard is visibly worn, I'd get a new one quick. Threading a new halyard without a sound old one can be a pain. It sounds like you may have some binding at the top of the mast, if your can't get up in the bosun's chair. If so, I'd drop the mast to have a good look at all of the sheeves and rigging at the top. Hang in there - getting things right on a good aold boat is so rewarding! David Lady Lillie
I think that's the case for most of us. If the halyard is visibly worn, I'd get a new one quick. Threading a new halyard without a sound old one can be a pain. It sounds like you may have some binding at the top of the mast, if your can't get up in the bosun's chair. If so, I'd drop the mast to have a good look at all of the sheeves and rigging at the top. Hang in there - getting things right on a good aold boat is so rewarding! David Lady Lillie
also...
Releasing the mainsheet is ggod advice, and also make sure that the boom vang is easesd. It's normal to need a winch for the last few inches and to get it tensioned.
Releasing the mainsheet is ggod advice, and also make sure that the boom vang is easesd. It's normal to need a winch for the last few inches and to get it tensioned.
Possibly
On my older 30, the boom is attached at the mainsail track and slides up and down in the track. Possibly, yours is stuck in the track and doesn't allow you to raise it all the way to the top. You say it comes down easily, so it should go up easily.
On my older 30, the boom is attached at the mainsail track and slides up and down in the track. Possibly, yours is stuck in the track and doesn't allow you to raise it all the way to the top. You say it comes down easily, so it should go up easily.
don't forget topping lift...
...after easing mainsheet and vang, apply the topping lift to help support the boom(or have someone hold it up). Another obvious suggestion is to head the boat directly into the wind, allowing the sail to luff as it's hoisted. Again, make sure the sheet is released so there is no pressure on the sail. You definitely need a winch on a 30 footer. You can probably use an existing winch by strategically placing a block at the mast base. The purpose being to get as fair a lead as possible to the winch.
...after easing mainsheet and vang, apply the topping lift to help support the boom(or have someone hold it up). Another obvious suggestion is to head the boat directly into the wind, allowing the sail to luff as it's hoisted. Again, make sure the sheet is released so there is no pressure on the sail. You definitely need a winch on a 30 footer. You can probably use an existing winch by strategically placing a block at the mast base. The purpose being to get as fair a lead as possible to the winch.
Going aloft
You and many other people are using the wrong approach to going aloft. Getting winched up is a real strain on the crew that has to get you up there. So much so that most people avoid it at all cost. Climbing yourself with line ascenders is so easy that any one can do it. Instead of a job to be avoided, it becomes a piece of cake.
You and many other people are using the wrong approach to going aloft. Getting winched up is a real strain on the crew that has to get you up there. So much so that most people avoid it at all cost. Climbing yourself with line ascenders is so easy that any one can do it. Instead of a job to be avoided, it becomes a piece of cake.
Hoisting problems
I am always reading about how difficult it is to raise the main and how the winch has to strain to get the last few feet. My mainsail luff is 44' and we never use a winch to hoist to the top. In fact we have to be careful not to take it past the black band. I have a floating tack so cunningham is added to give the needed luff tension. Clean and wax the luff grove and check the sheeves for friction, if they are bad replace.
I am always reading about how difficult it is to raise the main and how the winch has to strain to get the last few feet. My mainsail luff is 44' and we never use a winch to hoist to the top. In fact we have to be careful not to take it past the black band. I have a floating tack so cunningham is added to give the needed luff tension. Clean and wax the luff grove and check the sheeves for friction, if they are bad replace.
yes
I do the ascender approach. Always have someone belay on a separate line. 40-50 feet is a long way's. Clearly our bodies will heal, but imagine the damage to the deck with 200+ pounds hurtling down! Just kidding a bit on that last remark. Equipment fails, lines part, have a back up when your off the deck, mistakes like this are one time mistakes!
I do the ascender approach. Always have someone belay on a separate line. 40-50 feet is a long way's. Clearly our bodies will heal, but imagine the damage to the deck with 200+ pounds hurtling down! Just kidding a bit on that last remark. Equipment fails, lines part, have a back up when your off the deck, mistakes like this are one time mistakes!
Of course..
..use a spotter with a seperate safety line, but how easy is it compared to having someone having to hump you up there!
..use a spotter with a seperate safety line, but how easy is it compared to having someone having to hump you up there!
learned this lesson
> Releasing the mainsheet is good advice Funny you guys mentioned that. This lesson I learned very early on the hard way when we raised the main to sail away from our mooring as we cast off. With the mainsheet cleated, the wind caught the sail and we took off. We ran right over the mooring line that was also tied to our zodiac tender and fouled it on the rudder. As we sailed away from the mooring bouy, the distance to the zodiac got shorter and shorter until eventually the zodiac was being pulled *under* the rear of the sailboat. Of course the wind and waves were up and the transom would raise about 4-5 feet letting the zodiac come well underneath before crashing down on the poor thing. We couldn't get the sail down since it was pulling hard, and it didn't occur to anyone that the problem would have been fixed by releasing the mainsheet. (It was our very first time out...) In retrospect, I have no idea why we didn't release it. Maybe it was stuck, I don't remember. "We're killing the zodiac" the girls kept shouting. (2 guys, my partner having indicated he sailed a smaller boat when he was younger, and 2 girls onboard). Fine, I'll save the zodiac. So I dove in, cut the line, and chased down the zodiac as it blew away. Again, not the best thing to do in hindsight, but things seemed pretty clear at the time. I'll have to ask the others again what exactly happened. Eventually, though, they got head-to-wind using the engine (which we did having running) and the sail down and came back to the mooring. Coming from an extensive windsurfing background, I thought I knew how to sail. I quickly found out that the hard part about sailing boats is not the actually sailing itself -- it's all the *procedures* that have to be done in a particular order, especially when getting underway or returning. Then again, maybe those procedures are the biggest part of "sailing", and no one knows it until they've actually done it. *Lots* of lessons learned that day. Fortunately, no one was hurt, including either boat. I now have a great deal of respect for how quickly a situation can turn bad as well as the toughness of that zodiac! Paul
> Releasing the mainsheet is good advice Funny you guys mentioned that. This lesson I learned very early on the hard way when we raised the main to sail away from our mooring as we cast off. With the mainsheet cleated, the wind caught the sail and we took off. We ran right over the mooring line that was also tied to our zodiac tender and fouled it on the rudder. As we sailed away from the mooring bouy, the distance to the zodiac got shorter and shorter until eventually the zodiac was being pulled *under* the rear of the sailboat. Of course the wind and waves were up and the transom would raise about 4-5 feet letting the zodiac come well underneath before crashing down on the poor thing. We couldn't get the sail down since it was pulling hard, and it didn't occur to anyone that the problem would have been fixed by releasing the mainsheet. (It was our very first time out...) In retrospect, I have no idea why we didn't release it. Maybe it was stuck, I don't remember. "We're killing the zodiac" the girls kept shouting. (2 guys, my partner having indicated he sailed a smaller boat when he was younger, and 2 girls onboard). Fine, I'll save the zodiac. So I dove in, cut the line, and chased down the zodiac as it blew away. Again, not the best thing to do in hindsight, but things seemed pretty clear at the time. I'll have to ask the others again what exactly happened. Eventually, though, they got head-to-wind using the engine (which we did having running) and the sail down and came back to the mooring. Coming from an extensive windsurfing background, I thought I knew how to sail. I quickly found out that the hard part about sailing boats is not the actually sailing itself -- it's all the *procedures* that have to be done in a particular order, especially when getting underway or returning. Then again, maybe those procedures are the biggest part of "sailing", and no one knows it until they've actually done it. *Lots* of lessons learned that day. Fortunately, no one was hurt, including either boat. I now have a great deal of respect for how quickly a situation can turn bad as well as the toughness of that zodiac! Paul
Self-belay
Nobody ever humps me up. I ride up on the windlass capstan. My problem is going up by myself. I thought that maybe there was some self-belaying mechanism in the ascenders. Guess not. I should find someone who is a rock climber and ask them
Nobody ever humps me up. I ride up on the windlass capstan. My problem is going up by myself. I thought that maybe there was some self-belaying mechanism in the ascenders. Guess not. I should find someone who is a rock climber and ask them
Self Belay
I have rock climbed for the last 8 years. THere are self belay devices. The least expensive is about $75. I use a device called the Petzl Croll. I think you would be better off useing a device called an ascender. Petzl makes one called ascension. It helps you climb the rope. The line has to be in the 8-13mm range for this to work. once you learn to use it you can get up the mast with very little effort quickly. I figure it takes about 5 min to setup and start climbing.
I have rock climbed for the last 8 years. THere are self belay devices. The least expensive is about $75. I use a device called the Petzl Croll. I think you would be better off useing a device called an ascender. Petzl makes one called ascension. It helps you climb the rope. The line has to be in the 8-13mm range for this to work. once you learn to use it you can get up the mast with very little effort quickly. I figure it takes about 5 min to setup and start climbing.
self belay, yes
whether I ascend the mast solo or with someone else belaying me, my comfort level requires one more system of safty that does not involve any halyards. If I am solo climbing one halyard, the other halyard is also tied off at both ends, I affix a prussik sling to the belay halyard. A prussik sling is line about 5 feet long that has been tied into a loop using double fishermans bend knots(2) at the ends. The hard part is explaining converting the loop into a prussik. Here is my attempt. Put the loop behind/around the belay halyard and pull the "ends" of the loop away from each other so the loop now looks like a doubled line. take the end in your right hand with the line doubled and held together and wrap around the halyard 3 times clockwise by going through the "eye" of the other end of the loop held in your left hand. After the third wrap, pull the "right hand" end tight and clip a caribinner through it and to your chair or harness. The double fishermans bend knot should not be part of the wrap or resting against the halyard, since this will reduce the friction of the prussik. If you are successful, then the prussik will slide up/down the halyard when there is no tension on it, but when tension is applied, the prussik will grab the halyard. Obviously, test the prussik when on the deck. If I am ascending solo, I put a prussik around the mast using tubular webbing ( it grabs smooth surfaces better than rope) and another one around the belay halyard. AS I climb one halyard I slide the one prussik up the other halyard and the other prussik up the mast, as far as I can reach, then pull down to tension, then operate the ascenders. If I am being belayed by some one and tied off at the end of the belay halyard, I still use a prussik around the mast. That way when a swarm of killer bees attacks me and my buddy and we let go of everything, I will be hanging from the prussik wrapped 3 times around the mast. The rope and webbing for the prussiks are never used for anything else and are kept in a bag with the chair and harness. For people who only have one masthead line, and will allow themselves to be cranked up without a belay line, using a prussik around the mast would double your safty. Hey you rock climbers, did I get the prussik right, or at least the spelling? Scott .
whether I ascend the mast solo or with someone else belaying me, my comfort level requires one more system of safty that does not involve any halyards. If I am solo climbing one halyard, the other halyard is also tied off at both ends, I affix a prussik sling to the belay halyard. A prussik sling is line about 5 feet long that has been tied into a loop using double fishermans bend knots(2) at the ends. The hard part is explaining converting the loop into a prussik. Here is my attempt. Put the loop behind/around the belay halyard and pull the "ends" of the loop away from each other so the loop now looks like a doubled line. take the end in your right hand with the line doubled and held together and wrap around the halyard 3 times clockwise by going through the "eye" of the other end of the loop held in your left hand. After the third wrap, pull the "right hand" end tight and clip a caribinner through it and to your chair or harness. The double fishermans bend knot should not be part of the wrap or resting against the halyard, since this will reduce the friction of the prussik. If you are successful, then the prussik will slide up/down the halyard when there is no tension on it, but when tension is applied, the prussik will grab the halyard. Obviously, test the prussik when on the deck. If I am ascending solo, I put a prussik around the mast using tubular webbing ( it grabs smooth surfaces better than rope) and another one around the belay halyard. AS I climb one halyard I slide the one prussik up the other halyard and the other prussik up the mast, as far as I can reach, then pull down to tension, then operate the ascenders. If I am being belayed by some one and tied off at the end of the belay halyard, I still use a prussik around the mast. That way when a swarm of killer bees attacks me and my buddy and we let go of everything, I will be hanging from the prussik wrapped 3 times around the mast. The rope and webbing for the prussiks are never used for anything else and are kept in a bag with the chair and harness. For people who only have one masthead line, and will allow themselves to be cranked up without a belay line, using a prussik around the mast would double your safty. Hey you rock climbers, did I get the prussik right, or at least the spelling? Scott .
figure 8
Prusiks work and I think you described them ok. You can also use a figure 8 rappeling device. They're relatively in expensive and you can set them to lock you in place. I agree, self belaying is ok, I've done it. Climb one halyard, have the other tied in place with the figure 8 on it. Quick easy and feels more secure than having someone crank you up on a winch.
Prusiks work and I think you described them ok. You can also use a figure 8 rappeling device. They're relatively in expensive and you can set them to lock you in place. I agree, self belaying is ok, I've done it. Climb one halyard, have the other tied in place with the figure 8 on it. Quick easy and feels more secure than having someone crank you up on a winch.
Scott
Your description of the prussik(sp) Was good to me. I had never thought of putting it around the mast. You must work for the telephone company, climbing the poles.
Jim, The figure-8 is good for rappeling but not good (IMO) for holding/self arresting. For that I use a Petzl croll. First the figure-8 will twist the line like crazy. Second it is difficult to tie off/un-tie the figure-8 as you go up and down. I do agree though they are inexpensive and better then nothing. Shane.
Your description of the prussik(sp) Was good to me. I had never thought of putting it around the mast. You must work for the telephone company, climbing the poles.
Jim, The figure-8 is good for rappeling but not good (IMO) for holding/self arresting. For that I use a Petzl croll. First the figure-8 will twist the line like crazy. Second it is difficult to tie off/un-tie the figure-8 as you go up and down. I do agree though they are inexpensive and better then nothing. Shane.Sorry Paul, what was your question?
Paul, sorry we have abandonded the goal of solving your sail raising problem, and have moved on to getting you up the mast. Take your camera if you go. Scott
Paul, sorry we have abandonded the goal of solving your sail raising problem, and have moved on to getting you up the mast. Take your camera if you go. Scott
Changing to ascending title,
Scott - Good points on the figure 8, I've got a couple laying around, but most recently used a "reverso?" for defense. I think it's a petzl product, but haven't been in that gear bag for a while. If memory serves on that ascent, I didn't have the lower part of the line secured, but held it with a leg. A bit awkward, but I'd foolishly not thought my path out before hand. Key point is, have a back up, and you can go up on your own with the right gear (Prusiks are pretty easy to rig up!) cheers everyone.
Scott - Good points on the figure 8, I've got a couple laying around, but most recently used a "reverso?" for defense. I think it's a petzl product, but haven't been in that gear bag for a while. If memory serves on that ascent, I didn't have the lower part of the line secured, but held it with a leg. A bit awkward, but I'd foolishly not thought my path out before hand. Key point is, have a back up, and you can go up on your own with the right gear (Prusiks are pretty easy to rig up!) cheers everyone.
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