I just bought a 1979 28' O'day, this is my first "big" sail boat, I always sail Katamaran and windsuf, so I am trying to get familiar on sailing this new boat size. Last weekend we got an scary situation, when a gust of wind made my boat lean to the point I thought we where going to flip over. My question is, how much is too much for a boat this size?; should I be worried about flipping the boat over?. Thank you.
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Ric
Almost impossible
Almost impossible to put her over, unless you broach. I have a 25 and sails much faster (and my wife is happier) if I heel 15 degrees or less. Control how much sail you have up by furling, reefing and flattening the sails in a big blow. You can let your traveller out to leward and point up to luff a little in a gust to control heel. Just like a wind surfer, if you lay the sail over (heeling) or let go of the boom, no force. As the boat heels, less sail area is at a 90 degree angle to the wind and the forces are reduced. If it was heeled over until water comes into the cockpit, the sail would be nearly perpindicular with the water's surface and the heeling forced minimized. The boat would then right itself as you have 2,000 pounds or more of lead hanging on the bottom of the boat as the keel. As I said, the boat doesn't sail well with that much heel and everyone has wet pants (from several sources) and you go slower, so avoid it.
Almost impossible to put her over, unless you broach. I have a 25 and sails much faster (and my wife is happier) if I heel 15 degrees or less. Control how much sail you have up by furling, reefing and flattening the sails in a big blow. You can let your traveller out to leward and point up to luff a little in a gust to control heel. Just like a wind surfer, if you lay the sail over (heeling) or let go of the boom, no force. As the boat heels, less sail area is at a 90 degree angle to the wind and the forces are reduced. If it was heeled over until water comes into the cockpit, the sail would be nearly perpindicular with the water's surface and the heeling forced minimized. The boat would then right itself as you have 2,000 pounds or more of lead hanging on the bottom of the boat as the keel. As I said, the boat doesn't sail well with that much heel and everyone has wet pants (from several sources) and you go slower, so avoid it.
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Hayden Jones
I've had water at the rail but it isn't fun.
I prefer to hold heeling to no more that 15 degrees but she can take a lot more (up to 45 degrees). Best sailing is 10 to 15. It's almost impossible to knock down a boat your size unless you've got wind and waves both working against you. Adjust the sails (I give my wife the main sheet and tell her to release it whenever she feels threatened). I also reef sooner than later. It's always easier to shorten sail at the dock before I go out that to dance on the deck in a 25 knot blow and 6 ft waves. Faid Winds and enjoy the boat. Hayden
I prefer to hold heeling to no more that 15 degrees but she can take a lot more (up to 45 degrees). Best sailing is 10 to 15. It's almost impossible to knock down a boat your size unless you've got wind and waves both working against you. Adjust the sails (I give my wife the main sheet and tell her to release it whenever she feels threatened). I also reef sooner than later. It's always easier to shorten sail at the dock before I go out that to dance on the deck in a 25 knot blow and 6 ft waves. Faid Winds and enjoy the boat. Hayden
No worries
As mentioned, the resistance to heeling increases as the angle increases. This is different from a catamaran or windsurfer, both of which will capsize if heeled too far, so it may take you a little while to get used to it. It could be worse...you could be going from a keelboat to a small cat, which in my opinion is harder, having sailed both. Peter H23 "Raven"
As mentioned, the resistance to heeling increases as the angle increases. This is different from a catamaran or windsurfer, both of which will capsize if heeled too far, so it may take you a little while to get used to it. It could be worse...you could be going from a keelboat to a small cat, which in my opinion is harder, having sailed both. Peter H23 "Raven"
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Dragonfly
Can't flip her if you tried
When I bought a Starwind 223 about 5 years ago we were spooked by heeling. An experienced sailor on a Tartan 37 said we couldn't turn her over if we tried. A week later we had 20-25 knot winds. Whitecaps on every wave on Mark Twain Lake. My 18 yr old son and I decided to prove him wrong. We strapped on life jackets, alerted the fleet, set full sails and tried to get wet. Well, we did get wet. We got her heeled with rail in the water and water coming into the cockpit. But that's as far as we got. After about an hour of sailing, we reefed the main and changed from 160 to 110 jib and had a great sail. We have since moved to a Beneteau First 285 and now a Beneteau 331. We have sailed them both in 25-30 knot winds with the rail in the water...with no fear of turning over. As several have suggested, rail in the water does not equal maximum speed. We go faster with main and jib properly reefed for wind conditions. Dragonfly B331
When I bought a Starwind 223 about 5 years ago we were spooked by heeling. An experienced sailor on a Tartan 37 said we couldn't turn her over if we tried. A week later we had 20-25 knot winds. Whitecaps on every wave on Mark Twain Lake. My 18 yr old son and I decided to prove him wrong. We strapped on life jackets, alerted the fleet, set full sails and tried to get wet. Well, we did get wet. We got her heeled with rail in the water and water coming into the cockpit. But that's as far as we got. After about an hour of sailing, we reefed the main and changed from 160 to 110 jib and had a great sail. We have since moved to a Beneteau First 285 and now a Beneteau 331. We have sailed them both in 25-30 knot winds with the rail in the water...with no fear of turning over. As several have suggested, rail in the water does not equal maximum speed. We go faster with main and jib properly reefed for wind conditions. Dragonfly B331
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Jim LeBlanc
As everyone says, it is almost impossible
I also tried with my first boat (a Venture 25), with only a swing keel and not much ballast, to see if I could knock it down. It would routinely sail in moderate wind conditions with the rail down to the water, so I pushed it very hard one day under high wind conditions. Only goes so far, then the sails loose the wind and the boat rights itself. My present boat (a 24 ft S2) likes to sail over at 25 to 30 degrees and goes fast doing it. I have had it over at 45 degrees in high wind puffs and that is as far as it will go. Looses air and tends to to round up after 45 degrees. Bottom line, don't worry about it, you cannot turn the boat over.
I also tried with my first boat (a Venture 25), with only a swing keel and not much ballast, to see if I could knock it down. It would routinely sail in moderate wind conditions with the rail down to the water, so I pushed it very hard one day under high wind conditions. Only goes so far, then the sails loose the wind and the boat rights itself. My present boat (a 24 ft S2) likes to sail over at 25 to 30 degrees and goes fast doing it. I have had it over at 45 degrees in high wind puffs and that is as far as it will go. Looses air and tends to to round up after 45 degrees. Bottom line, don't worry about it, you cannot turn the boat over.
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Dan McGuire
Swing Keel
When I first got my McGregor 23 with a swing keel, I contacted McGregor. They still had people around who were very familiar with the 23. My question was whether the keel should be locked in the down position. I wanted to sail unlocked so that if I hit anything with the keel, it would not damage the boat. According to McGregor, it would be virtually impossible to turn the boat over even with the keel unlocked. It is considerably more convenient to sail unlocked since it is easier to raise and lower the keel. Any comments on the wisdom of sailing with the keel unlocked?
When I first got my McGregor 23 with a swing keel, I contacted McGregor. They still had people around who were very familiar with the 23. My question was whether the keel should be locked in the down position. I wanted to sail unlocked so that if I hit anything with the keel, it would not damage the boat. According to McGregor, it would be virtually impossible to turn the boat over even with the keel unlocked. It is considerably more convenient to sail unlocked since it is easier to raise and lower the keel. Any comments on the wisdom of sailing with the keel unlocked?
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Bayard Gross
Locking swing keels
The reason for locking the keel is that in the event of a knock down, the swing keel can pivot into the trunk or bottom of the boat meaning that its righting moment is greatly compromised. This means the vessel may not right itself and sink. Further, I have a personal opinion regarding hitting things with a swing Keel. I beleive that if you hit something with a swing keel that is not locked, the keel can move up and down so suddenly and violently, that you may cause more damage than if its movement were arrested or slowed by the locking device. At the least, the cable may snap due to the sudden force of dropping back down. Or the cable can become jammed somehwere up near its winch if it is pushed quickly upward and does not have time to bend. I am aware of opinions to the contrary, but one must admit there are good reasons why manufacturers bother to put in these locking devices and reccomend that they are employed.
The reason for locking the keel is that in the event of a knock down, the swing keel can pivot into the trunk or bottom of the boat meaning that its righting moment is greatly compromised. This means the vessel may not right itself and sink. Further, I have a personal opinion regarding hitting things with a swing Keel. I beleive that if you hit something with a swing keel that is not locked, the keel can move up and down so suddenly and violently, that you may cause more damage than if its movement were arrested or slowed by the locking device. At the least, the cable may snap due to the sudden force of dropping back down. Or the cable can become jammed somehwere up near its winch if it is pushed quickly upward and does not have time to bend. I am aware of opinions to the contrary, but one must admit there are good reasons why manufacturers bother to put in these locking devices and reccomend that they are employed.
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John Dawson
Swing vote
I believe the folks at MacGregor are probably right, at least with their boats. Personally, I have never locked my keel, although the discussions about possible hull damage from fast retractions in a knockdown have made me more cautious. I now lock the keel in deep water where there is little chance of striking. In lakes with varying depth, gunkholing or nearing shallow water, I keep it unlocked. In my experience, I would disagree with the previous theory. We often hit obstacles on the ponds in Maine with no effect. We often ground in the Chesapeake trying to enter unfamiliar creeks with six feet of keel. I am much more concerned about damage to the locking pin hole, the pivot pin, and its (fglass) hole in a hard strike. The wire pendant is kept slack to minimize 'moan' and is not going to affect the winch. Furthermore, I fear twisting the keel/slot when stuck in mud or sand. With headway killed, the boat usually pivots. By the time you unpin it (under pressure) and crank the winch, the boat may have spun quite a bit.
I believe the folks at MacGregor are probably right, at least with their boats. Personally, I have never locked my keel, although the discussions about possible hull damage from fast retractions in a knockdown have made me more cautious. I now lock the keel in deep water where there is little chance of striking. In lakes with varying depth, gunkholing or nearing shallow water, I keep it unlocked. In my experience, I would disagree with the previous theory. We often hit obstacles on the ponds in Maine with no effect. We often ground in the Chesapeake trying to enter unfamiliar creeks with six feet of keel. I am much more concerned about damage to the locking pin hole, the pivot pin, and its (fglass) hole in a hard strike. The wire pendant is kept slack to minimize 'moan' and is not going to affect the winch. Furthermore, I fear twisting the keel/slot when stuck in mud or sand. With headway killed, the boat usually pivots. By the time you unpin it (under pressure) and crank the winch, the boat may have spun quite a bit.
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Bob
To pin or not to pin
A friend of mine took his Chrysler 22 down the Inter-Coastal Waterway and must have gotten a little out of the channel because the keel swung way up then dropped down hard. He figured he must have run over a log or something similar. The force generated through the cable ripped the winch loose from its mount. I wonder what would have happened if the keel had been pinned.
A friend of mine took his Chrysler 22 down the Inter-Coastal Waterway and must have gotten a little out of the channel because the keel swung way up then dropped down hard. He figured he must have run over a log or something similar. The force generated through the cable ripped the winch loose from its mount. I wonder what would have happened if the keel had been pinned.
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Jim LeBlanc
Without the pin in place
When I had a Venture 25, I would run it usually without the pin in place, for the reasons given by several owners. The board would bounce up if you hit the bottom or a submerged object, then slam back down against the stop, which in itself can cause damage. Everyone with a swing keel needs to inspect the bolt hole and the stop and pin holes in the fiberglas, since I found that mine had elongated after a couple of years and the rubber washers on the side did not seal anymore. I prefer a fixed keel, which will stop you dead in the water if you hit something, but is strong enough to take the impact without hull damage.
When I had a Venture 25, I would run it usually without the pin in place, for the reasons given by several owners. The board would bounce up if you hit the bottom or a submerged object, then slam back down against the stop, which in itself can cause damage. Everyone with a swing keel needs to inspect the bolt hole and the stop and pin holes in the fiberglas, since I found that mine had elongated after a couple of years and the rubber washers on the side did not seal anymore. I prefer a fixed keel, which will stop you dead in the water if you hit something, but is strong enough to take the impact without hull damage.
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David
So, how fast does a Catalina 22 go?
I was wondering how fast i can go in my catalina 22. I have a 4 hp motor and it can move at 5 knots. I haven't been in a good wind that moves it any faster although i have been sailing only in light winds.
I was wondering how fast i can go in my catalina 22. I have a 4 hp motor and it can move at 5 knots. I haven't been in a good wind that moves it any faster although i have been sailing only in light winds.
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tomD
c-22 speed
Hullspeed is just under 6 knots but racing in 25 knot winds we've exceeded 7 knots. Just be sure the crew is up to it. We were knocked down twice, the boat rounded up both times with hardly any water in the cockpit. Lifejackets and hatchboards first!
Hullspeed is just under 6 knots but racing in 25 knot winds we've exceeded 7 knots. Just be sure the crew is up to it. We were knocked down twice, the boat rounded up both times with hardly any water in the cockpit. Lifejackets and hatchboards first!
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