How Important is Disp/Len?

BayMan

.
Sep 12, 2012
203
Hunter 450 Unspecified
I am boat shopping for something in the 40' range. I have been narrowing my choices of models by different factors including the Displacement/Length Ratio. My thinking is that a boat with a higher Disp/Len ratio will generally be more safe/stable when things start blowing hard as compared to a boat with a lower Disp/Len ratio. For example, a Hunter 42 (Disp/Len of 190) is very similar to a Hunter 420 (Disp/Len of 160) but their respective Disp/Len ratios are drastically different. This is causing me to favor the Hunter 42 over the Hunter 420 and maybe pass up some quality Hunter 420s.

Am I making too much of this? I cannot realistically go test-sail every possible boat so I need some way to chose between models. My philosophy is I would rather give up some light wind speed in favor of safetyo/confidence when the heavy winds come.

Thanks - Bob
 

higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,709
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
I think you are making too much the stats as other factors figure into safety. Either boat, properly handled, is going to get you around the Great Lakes no problem.
 
Nov 23, 2011
2,023
MacGregor 26D London Ontario Canada
I'm with higgs.
The boat's that are not safe don't stick around that long. There would be an out cry of owners who's boats sank.
There is a C&C 38 for sale in Bayfield Ont. (It should be there by now. It's coming form Sarnia.) It is touted as having more room than almost any 40'.
I don't have any interest in the boat. It belongs to the widow of one of my customers.
 
Nov 18, 2010
2,441
Catalina 310 Hingham, MA
IMHO, you are concentrating on old metrics. Sailboat design has significantly evolved over the last 20 years. And there are a couple of key components that have changed in modern hull design. These are not just limited to production boats like Hunters, Catalinas or Bennies. You can find them in more expensive boats like Oysters and Hylas.

The most important of these is initial stability vs. overall (some times called secondary) stability. Essentially, more modern designs (wider beams carried further aft, fin keels and lighter displacement) have higher initial stability than classic designs (narrower beam, full or fullish keels and heavier displacement). But classic designs have higher overall stability. At first this looks like it hits the classic sailing forum argument of light cruiser/racer vs. heavy cruiser. But there is a little more to it.

Having a high initial stability and lower overall stability doesn't rule a boat out as a cruiser. Think about the extreme example of this, catamarans. Catamarans have a very high initial stability but the overall or secondary stability and righting motion is lower than the classic heavy cruiser. Yet there are plenty of examples of catamarans being cruised successfully and surviving storms at sea.

What the difference of initial stability vs. overall stability does tell you is how the boat likes to be sailed. Catamarans aren't sailed healed over at 20 degrees. And essentially the same is true of modern designs. They are sailed more flat footed. In my Catalina 310, I find that when I am healed over 15 degrees I start to loose speed. So with a modern design you need to learn when to reef, typically sooner than more classic designs to maintain speed, and other sail trim methods for depowering and flattening out your boat.

The problem with using some of these basic statistical measures is that often differences in design don't manifest themselves in these numbers. When you look at the overall length and beam the two Hunters look pretty similar. But the LWL on the 420 is 1.5 feet longer and when you look at the hull design the beam is carrier further aft. On the 42, the headsail carriers more sf but on the 420 the main carries more sf. None of this is accounted for when you only look at D/L ratio but it will all have an affect on the boat as a whole. Ted Brewer has a good primer on all of the boat statistics on his page (http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html). By the way, he would consider both of these boats light cruiser/racers simply based on the D/L ratio.

And I would not take the word of some jerk on a forum (like me). I would do my own research on these things. Ted Brewer's page is a good place to start. Google will fill in the rest.

Good luck and fair winds,

Jesse
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
One of the most important specs a boat has is the Captain. All production boats will preform safely, the manufacturer has a vested interest in not paying law suites for killing its' patrons. Most safety related incidents on boats are Captain or crew error. so if you really want to have the safest boat you can invest in yourself and learn how to handle the boat at hand and ALWAYS be teaching the crew.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,551
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Length to displacement isn't my favorite metric either. But it is a useful index of the heft of the boat. I don't think it directly relates to safety at all.
For stability I'd rather look at the ballast/displacement ratio. Higher will be less tender. That doesn't relate directly to safety either but I'd rather a less tender boat for cruising.
And, I don't think the modern hulls with the beam carried well aft are good sea boats in general. If you've steered one downwind in waves you would know why I think that. It is exhausting to fight the helm as the waves toss the buoyant stern around.
I think they can be good cruising platforms however, because most of the time cruising is not spent in transit. But the OP was about the boats handling when the wind pipes up.
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
My old marina neighbor applied an engineer's method to boat shopping, scoured the specifications and related expert analysis. In the end he bought a heavy production cruiser popular amongst the folks planning to sail around the world. Health concerns ended up keeping him close to home in retirement, he found the boat needed 12kts of wind to move, so he rarely left the marina and in the end sold the boat in disappointment.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,557
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
On a more philosophical note.... 100% of all sailors dream about sailing out in the big blue water... only 10% of sailors actually do... most sail within a few miles of shore their entire lives (myself included). A faster boat has some safety advantages that should (IMHO) be factored into the calculus. It is better to avoid the storm than to survive the storm.

Find a boat that you will actually enjoy sailing... then sail it as often as you can. :)
 
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Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
Length to displacement isn't my favorite metric either. But it is a useful index of the heft of the boat. I don't think it directly relates to safety at all.
Displacement/length ratio has little to do with the weight of the boat.
 

BayMan

.
Sep 12, 2012
203
Hunter 450 Unspecified
Thanks guys. I will check out that link. While I do not plan to circumnavigate and I do intend to watch the weather, I never want to be gripping the wheel with white knuckles muttering "I wish I had a heavier/more stable/safer boat"

Bob
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Caulder says:

I just happen to have Nigel Caulder's book, "Cruising Handbook" where he says the Hunter 420 DLR is 197. His suggested DLR is for an offshore cruiser to be 250-400 for a 40-foot boat.

He goes on to say for a coastal cruiser, shift the numbers to a higher-performance direction. Higher SADR #, lower DLR #, etc. (see chart, p7. Also, chart on p16)
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,032
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I just happen to have Nigel Caulder's book, "Cruising Handbook" where he says the Hunter 420 DLR is 197. His suggested DLR is for an offshore cruiser to be 250-400 for a 40-foot boat.

He goes on to say for a coastal cruiser, shift the numbers to a higher-performance direction. Higher SADR #, lower DLR #, etc. (see chart, p7. Also, chart on p16)
Ron's right, Calder's "Cruising Handbook" is a very good volume to have on hand. If I had only TWO books I could take with me, it'd be that one and Calder's "Boatowners Manual...".
 
Nov 18, 2010
2,441
Catalina 310 Hingham, MA
I just happen to have Nigel Caulder's book, "Cruising Handbook" where he says the Hunter 420 DLR is 197. His suggested DLR is for an offshore cruiser to be 250-400 for a 40-foot boat. He goes on to say for a coastal cruiser, shift the numbers to a higher-performance direction. Higher SADR #, lower DLR #, etc. (see chart, p7. Also, chart on p16)
I am not discounting any of his work, but some of it may be dated. For instance an Oyster 575 would not qualify as an offshore cruiser by this metric as it's D/L is 190. I doubt any would question the offshore credentials of that boat.

These type of metrics are good for comparing boats of common error of boat design. But you can't compare a 1960-1970 boat to a 2000 error boat based on these type of metrics. There have been significant advances in material science, the understanding of buoyancy and hydrodynamic principles. Hull shapes have change significantly and that is not just to make floating condos as some may suggest.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,551
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I never want to be gripping the wheel with white knuckles muttering "I wish I had a heavier/more stable/safer boat"Bob
Ahhhhh, but you will. But it will make a good story. And life is an exercise in collecting good stories. Seriously, you can't buy a boat big enough to immunize yourself from weather.
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
....some of it may be dated. For instance an Oyster 575 would not qualify as an offshore cruiser by this metric as it's D/L is 190.
Calder is referring to a 40' boat.

The Oyster is a bit larger so it really isn't relevant. D/L ratios can drop as boats get larger and commonly do. The Sundeer 60 is one of the most successful offshore cruisers of its size with many circumnavigations to its credit mostly with couples. It has a D/L of 82.

But again D/L has little to do with weight unless comparing similar size and type of boats.
 
Nov 18, 2010
2,441
Catalina 310 Hingham, MA
Calder is referring to a 40' boat. The Oyster is a bit larger so it really isn't relevant. D/L ratios can drop as boats get larger and commonly do. The Sundeer 60 is one of the most successful offshore cruisers of its size with many circumnavigations to its credit mostly with couples. It has a D/L of 82. But again D/L has little to do with weight unless comparing similar size and type of boats.
Not quit sure I get this since the D/L is a ratio. It would scaled up as you increase in size unless the design was significantly different. It might decrease slightly but not to the point of decreasing to 80.

And using the Sundeer 60 as an example of a successful cruiser seems miss placed. How successful can a design be that only had 9 hulls built? Also the Sundeer line were performance cruisers that were built on the concept of light, fast, narrow hulls. It only had a 13 foot beam. My 31 footer is almost that wide. Again sticking with oysters as an example, a 60-foot oyster built at the same time as the Sundeer had a 16 foot beam and a D/L of 369. You can find other examples that would also demonstrate that the Sundeer was really an outlier.

And getting back to the oyster 575 example with a D/L of 190, a 2010 design. Similar size oyster built in the 1990s and 1980s had D/Ls of 230 and 242, respectively. See a pattern? More modern designs have lower D/L ratios in general.

But I agree with your last line about the usefulness of the metric.
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
You are correct it wouldn't scale.


They actually built 17 of the Sundeer 60's as well as some 56's which were the same hull.

Beam has nothing to do with the D/L ratio, only weight vs waterline.

The Sundeer 60 has a 59' waterline and a D/L of 82

If it had a 45' waterline with the same displacement its D/L would be 185

Another example:

The Alberg 30 has a waterline of 21.67' and a D/L of 395

If you extended its waterline to 27' and say it gained 400 lbs of weight in the process its D/L would be 213. This for a heavier boat.