Universal M12 (1985) looks to have a very slow drip coming off the oil drain plug. Sides of pan dry all around, but surface rust that rubs off near that plug. Best guess is that pan is shot or will be and not something to temporize about. Anyone have experience with how big a job replacement would be, i.e. hours of labor for a yard to raise the engine enough to replace or how hard to do it yourself using a 4x4 and a come along?
How hard and long to fix this?
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That makes sense I guess, but I can barely tough that plug with one finger. Can probably remove with a wrench, question will be getting the thing back on!
Fair question. I tried turning the hose itself to see if the thread would tighten and it did not, nor does oil appear to be coming from that threaded area. One tech told me that some of those plug gaskets (or sealing washer if you want to call it that) were metal but some plastic. I am going to wipe as much of the pan bottom as I can with naphtha and put a mirror under, but I am skeptical I will get a complete look due to lack of space. The thin flake of rust, about the size of a quarter, scared the hell out of me of course and I worry that getting heavy handed (or wrenched) in that area might tear a big hole in it.
Worth a try and I will do so. Only about 6" of clearance in there and not sure if even on macro setting I will get anything with or without flash but maybe......
Inspection mirror? They are dirt cheap at Autozone or Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-7619-T...=1372441468&sr=8-2&keywords=inspection+mirror
http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-7619-T...=1372441468&sr=8-2&keywords=inspection+mirror
That is the easy part. I have a nice 8" x 3" job I can shove under there. Question is whether I can get my snoot in close enough to see anything in it. They made this thing very repair friendly....for the wallets of the techs.
I agree with Ross, replace the plug gasket.
Although they do not "wear out", if it's metal it's probably copper and they are made to be used one time and replaced. They are called "crush washers"
As they are copper and copper being soft, when tightened it conforms to any irregularities and no leaks.
But, when they are used once they become work hardened. The pressure from being tightened hardens the copper and when reused they do not conform as well.
The problem is, almost no one replaces them, and each time they are reused it's necessary to tighten the plug a little" extra" to prevent leaks. Eventually they leak, or you strip the threads on the bolt, [not a good thing] or in the pan, [a worse thing].
In a pinch, if you don't have a replacement washer, the old one can be annealed if it's still in decent shape. This means to heat the washer with a torch, [propane's fine] until it sort of glows red.
It won't get real red like steel, just kinda dark red. Then let air cool, do not squelch in water.
This makes the copper soft again, so it will conform.
If the washer has been reused enough it could be squashed thin as a razor, [not quite but you get the idea]. If this is the case it needs to be replaced.
Be aware some copper washers are not solid copper, but a composite of copper with a gasket type material sandwiched between the copper. These cannot be annealed.
Some washers are aluminum, these should be replaced.
I have seen plastic [nylon] but I wouldn't think this would be found on anything but a much newer engine.
I doubt the pan has rusted through, but anything is possible. It takes quite a bit to perforate an oil pan, and I would think you would have been finding "chunks" of rust for some time.
I assume you don't drain the oil from the plug, but suck it from the dipstick hole. Be aware that this does not remove all the oil so be prepared for quite a bit of oil to drain when the plug is removed.
If accessibility is an issue, one of the ratchet type wrenches might do the trick.
Just be very careful to avoid cross threading when reinstalling the plug.
Make sure, even if you can get only a few threads engaged, it turns smoothly. At the first sign of resistance, stop and make sure the plug's going in straight.
robj
P.S. If it's rusted enough that pulling on a wrench on the bolt "tears a hole in it", you really don't have much to worry about as the pan was shot anyway.
Although they do not "wear out", if it's metal it's probably copper and they are made to be used one time and replaced. They are called "crush washers"
As they are copper and copper being soft, when tightened it conforms to any irregularities and no leaks.
But, when they are used once they become work hardened. The pressure from being tightened hardens the copper and when reused they do not conform as well.
The problem is, almost no one replaces them, and each time they are reused it's necessary to tighten the plug a little" extra" to prevent leaks. Eventually they leak, or you strip the threads on the bolt, [not a good thing] or in the pan, [a worse thing].
In a pinch, if you don't have a replacement washer, the old one can be annealed if it's still in decent shape. This means to heat the washer with a torch, [propane's fine] until it sort of glows red.
It won't get real red like steel, just kinda dark red. Then let air cool, do not squelch in water.
This makes the copper soft again, so it will conform.
If the washer has been reused enough it could be squashed thin as a razor, [not quite but you get the idea]. If this is the case it needs to be replaced.
Be aware some copper washers are not solid copper, but a composite of copper with a gasket type material sandwiched between the copper. These cannot be annealed.
Some washers are aluminum, these should be replaced.
I have seen plastic [nylon] but I wouldn't think this would be found on anything but a much newer engine.
I doubt the pan has rusted through, but anything is possible. It takes quite a bit to perforate an oil pan, and I would think you would have been finding "chunks" of rust for some time.
I assume you don't drain the oil from the plug, but suck it from the dipstick hole. Be aware that this does not remove all the oil so be prepared for quite a bit of oil to drain when the plug is removed.
If accessibility is an issue, one of the ratchet type wrenches might do the trick.
Just be very careful to avoid cross threading when reinstalling the plug.
Make sure, even if you can get only a few threads engaged, it turns smoothly. At the first sign of resistance, stop and make sure the plug's going in straight.
robj
P.S. If it's rusted enough that pulling on a wrench on the bolt "tears a hole in it", you really don't have much to worry about as the pan was shot anyway.
Thanks for all that thinking. I am sure I can get a new washer as the RI Marine place I use has all the Universal parts. The drip is pretty modest, well captured in a towel, so it is probably best I try the replacement of the washer at season's end, so I I ruin something I got a lot of time to fix the mess. I do drain from the tube, so yes, good point on residual. Will get a decent pan at the ready whe the bolt comes out. Ratchet to put back in....maybe. Am glad to hear the pans are not paper thin, but i did read of some pinhole leaks so that made me wonder. Sea water has also collected in the engine bilge pan below from time to time, and 1985 is backa fair bit but I hope you are right as I see a nasty job otherwise.
If you are unsure about the condition of the pan I would advice you not to run the engine. A rust pin hole can in an instant turn into a hole large enough to let the oil spew out of the engine. This could happen quite fast and should you hear the oil pressure alarm go off you wil lhave just a few seconds to shut the engine off. I also find it is much easier to deal with problems at the dock than out in the water. For the time being the plug and crush washer should be the least of your worries. If it were me I would grind, poke and pick at that rust area quite hard to either cause a hole to appear or to satisfy myself that the metal is sound and strong enough to have the rust removed and the pan repainted. Believe me if the metal is weak then it will not last long before the hole gets bigger by itself. I have lost oil lines to corrosion and oil under pressure can shoot out quite fast. Regarding the removal of the pan for replacement or repair it just depends how adept are you at mechanics. It would be a matter of removing the shaft coupling, the motor mount bolts, the exhaust mixing elbow and the fuel lines, control cables and electrical wiring. The engine is small and should be fairly light to handle with a helper. Reassembly entails putting all the parts back and adjusting the balance on the motor mounts.
There is no oil pressure in the oil sump!!! Manhandling a 30 HP diesel is a recipe for injuries.
Take a sharp ice pick type of tool and poke around the rust area. If it is weak it will puncture. I lost all my oil in an M-12 because the plug gasket leaked. If I remember it takes a 3/4 wrench to remove the plug. I removed the plug and drain hose and pressure checked it to be sure the hose did not leak. Found it to be good. My problem was just the washer.
That would be an excellent outcome. Trick will be to get the plug replaced as i can only just touch the plug with my index finger. Wrench off will be easy, but I almost need a mechanical arm to replace it, though perhaps a ratchet wrench will work. When you had your leak, was it dripping right straight down off the head of that drain plug bolt? Were you able to wipe off any surface rust "wafers" like i did?
Well, this turned out to be not so bad.....maybe. Put a mirror under the pan expecting to see a rusty mess and it looked like new except for a bit of paint missing just off where the drain hose and bolt assembly meet the pan. Seing that, I decided to disconect the retainer loop on the oil drain hose so I could try to see if I could swing the hose connector at the banjo fitting. WOW, it turned easily, I mean the entire assembly. Should not do that. So I put a 19mm wrench on the drain bolt and tightened it. The thing was almost a half turn loose. Of course the question is why? If the washer/gasket is shot, then the leak will continue or perhaps be worse. If it is not, I solved the issue. Will report in 3-4 days when I am sure.
likely vibration over time, or improperly installed in the first place.
the good news is that you have learned what it is, and what will be required to repair it....
and replacing the gasket or even the drain hose, is pennies when compared to the cost of replacing the pan.
IF you choose to replace the drain plug gasket, it can be held on the plug with dental floss while you install it, the floss is thin enough to not affect the seal, yet strong enough to hold it in place while you twist or turn the hose to get the plug started, then you can use the hose to help tighten, until you get tension enough to use a wrench.
Best of luck
The floss trick is great. I just need a 6 year old kid (skinny arms) with a 38" sleeve length to get a hand in there. It is just amazing how they put this together on this boat.
Well, all is well that ends well. No runs no drips no errors. The simple tightening did the trick. I did less well on something more routine (trans oil change), but that will be the subject of another thread. Thanks to all who chimed in on this one!
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