how flat do you sail your hunter ?

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BobbyFunn

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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Jeff Gray said:
Sorry to ask another dumb question but I'm curious if this is a legit thought: I have no traveller on this boat, so I can't pull the traveller up and ease the sheet out to create twist without changing boom angle. I also have no boom kicker, so I can't do it that way. I do have a topping lift though. I'm thinking I can ease the sheet a bit and tension the topping lift to create a controlled amount of twist without changing the angle of the sail (with vang off, of course.) Does that make sense? I know the topping lift is not normally used for sail trim, but it seems to me this should work...
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We have similar designs. Heres my angle of attack

Use telltales

Hoist sail. Leave super baggy, with tad of vang. Have outhaul ridiculosly under applied.

Pull main over to get a puff and look at shape. Slowly add outhaul until low telltales start looking like all they can be.

Look at top 1/3 of main. It should be twisted since the vang is loose. Add more vang untl tbe upper telltales are lining up. If they are already then great.

You dont want to sail with a loose vang at all even upwind. Each time you let main out on a puff you are adding twist and decreasing aoattack. Set the vang right and you will only be decreasing aoa
 
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BobbyFunn

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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Meriachee said:
If the conversation isn't suitable for your tastes, why not chime in with your particular knowledge on the topic? I'm sure you have pictures of how a "yadda, yadda, yadda" attaches and the inherent benefits therein.
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Im no genius for sure but, shouldnt this be the same exact info know mattter where we look? The answers here depend of course on posters, but every poster should have pretty much the same info, at least a 50% level that even slackers knows is correct, yet maybe not as refined as a pure racer/scientist.

The defective part of this discussion is there are no standards. "Joe" sails only downwind with 30 year old sails. His advice will be completly different from "Jay" who has three mainsails on board and changes them with each shift.

The sails work and science works exactly the same on both boats. Joes advice is probably terrible yet it probably is more than eough technically for a noob or slacker. Jay is never satisfied, wins most races, yet his level of expertise would be considered, too extreme for noobs.

Do whats fun i guess.
 
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BobbyFunn

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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Jackdaw said:
Um, No.

While the optimal heel angle for the BOAT (which factors in balance between the rig's drive and the righting moment) will vary between say 10 and 20 degrees, the optimal angle for ANY keel is 0 degrees.
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Heeling can only be considered a waste of wind and a complete drag. Its nature bucking your attempts to dominate it.

Heeling is like having a motorcycle with the drive tire located in the side car off to starboard. Heel is like moving the side car drive tire further out. The side drive will create a torque that requires constantly steering to go straight. Its a terrible design so we dont see motorcycle side car transmission, the driving force should be directly in front of or behind tbe center, never off center. Heel is the same way. Id use heel to pinch upwind and blast through a tack, but not for liniear speed.
 
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Jeff Gray

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Nov 26, 2017
64
Hunter 260 Mille Lacs
Interesting conversation. I didn’t intend to create a debate! I think probably in a forum setting, we all have different experience, different boats, and different equipment on those boats. Combine that with relatively crude instrumentation as to actual conditions, and well, while the science is surely well settled, sound practice in a given situation or perceived situation will be all over the place...

Be that as it may, I’m interested in the comments about boomvang. I’ve read lots of blogs/posts/etc. My summation, based on reading not practice is: downwind it’s vang-on to flatten the sail so as to make it is as big as possible. Upwind in light air, no Vang or very little, to maximize draft to create power. Then, with more wind, Vang-on to flatten the sail for less power when we have more than we need. So far so good, to my mind, but then, with even more wind we need, strangely, it’s Vang-off to allow the sail to twist and spill air at the top.

Can that possibly be right?
 
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BobbyFunn

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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Jeff Gray said:
Interesting conversation. I didn’t intend to create a debate! I think probably in a forum setting, we all have different experience, different boats, and different equipment on those boats. Combine that with relatively crude instrumentation as to actual conditions, and well, while the science is surely well settled, sound practice in a given situation or perceived situation will be all over the place...

Be that as it may, I’m interested in the comments about boomvang. I’ve read lots of blogs/posts/etc. My summation, based on reading not practice is: downwind it’s vang-on to flatten the sail so as to make it is as big as possible. Upwind in light air, no Vang or very little, to maximize draft to create power. Then, with more wind, Vang-on to flatten the sail for less power when we have more than we need. So far so good, to my mind, but then, with even more wind we need, strangely, it’s Vang-off to allow the sail to twist and spill air at the top.

Can that possibly be right?
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Vang is way to manage the primary feathers. Watch video.


The end of the wings are moving faster than the base of wing. The vang will let you adjust that. Since we dont have nerve endings in the head of sail or muscle memory for flying look at tell tales. If they are in line then you are good. What you do with good telltales is up to you.

You arent really wanting to spill air. You want the most air flowing smoothly you can get. If you are sloppy with telltalez then rhe flow will be a drag and just cause heeling. If you are spilling air frequently, then you have too much sail up.

At all points of sail the vang is the "missing" structural component that keeps the boom exactly at the angle up and down you need it to be.

You cant really use tbe mainsheet alone to control upper and lower telltales. Upwind the vang keeps the boom at the hight you want and the mainsheet keeps the angle of attack where you want it witout fighting the sail to pull the boom up. With no vang control you have boom height control only near max tension of mainsheet.

Downwind it is more about boom hight management. At this point mainsheet has zero height control of boom. You dont want any twist downwind or sail folding. Downwind is about creating as much drag as possible by presenting a full flat surface area with main.

The telltales will tell you when to change shape and the best angle of atrack. If you have variable wind speed or are a slacker on trim, you can leave more twist than telltales suggest. The variable pitch "twist" reduces the chance of the sail stalling all at once. If the main is pulled in tight and you go past a good angle of attack tbe boom telltales will stall, but the head telltales will still be lifting for you giving you time to release main, if that happens alot then less outhaul so your root has more lift at shalliwer angles of attack. On the other hand, the extra twist is spilling vauable airflow aloft probably creating more drag and heel. Your sails are diffetent from mine so see what you can do.
 
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Meriachee

Meriachee

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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
There comes a point where a reef will do more for you. If you concentrate on keeping the boat as upright as possible, the choice of available tools is based on conditions including speed. The tools are what you have at hand. Keep it simple, start large and remember what works. If letting the outhaul out makes the boat stand up, but stops you in your tracks, let it out 1/2 as much and see what happens. You’ll get to the point where you know that > < this is the range of adjustment given these wind conditions and then it’s second nature. We know that the little Catalina likes very much to have the boom nailed to the centreline, and the leech of the genny razor straight below the top spreader. The numbers tell me this.
 
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Valerio

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Feb 10, 2017
305
Hunter 41 Progreso
Every boat is different, there are something that is ok for every boat and others that apply different most of them to compensate for a bad design of the boat, with roller main forget about telltales shape etc. i am looking more how do i feel the rudder than everything else. Very good and simple explanation of wang uses by Jeff. I am 55, i started to race lasers at 14, now more than 20 year with my j24, i still cannot do most of the thing i learn because i am not a Natural, i have not the gift, i try hard but just there are some people that sail better. I am on the top of the fleet but i still cannot give that extra you need to win. Some people see the shape of a sail and now exactly what to do, others need to move one things at a time and see the results.
 
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J

Jeff Gray

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Nov 26, 2017
64
Hunter 260 Mille Lacs
great explanations by all. Thank you so much for spending the time to share your thoughts. Valerio, I think I will probably be forever in the same boat as you (pun intended. LOL!), in terms of never quite being a master of this stuff. It is an art and some of it is done by pure feel developed both through experience and natural talent. I'm certainly hoping, though, that by learning as much as I can, I can get better at it than I am right now!!! I'm particularly interested in paying more attention to the telltales. Most of my sailing experience has been just "ease 'til it luffs and then tighten up 'til it just stops". With that alone, I can make pretty much any sailboat take me where I want to go. I'm learning now just how much more there is to getting the most out of the wind and the most out of the boat...
 
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JimInPB

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Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Valerio said:
Every boat is different...
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Thank you. This is probably the single most valuable piece of information that has been posted so far. Anyone making a 100% statement should probably consider restricting his comment to his personal boat or at least a certain class of boats.

Both of my Hunters like to sail fairly flat. I have been on some older wooden class racing boats that had a short waterline & long overall length. They were specifically designed to be sailed with a lot of heel while racing. In that case, the heel caused the effective waterline to be lengthened & the hull speed increased. Some of those boats sail faster at 30 degrees than they do at 20 with a reef in the main. Flatter is not always faster on all boats.

Twin keel boats also tend to like a fair amount of heel.

http://www.ellisdesign.co.uk/Sailing/OnBeach1.JPG
 
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Roland5048

Roland5048

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May 12, 2004
1,505
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
My '77 h30 has a fairly narrow beam and is much faster upwind healed about 15-20 degrees due to decreased wetted surface and increased waterline length. After that there is too much side-slip but it can be a lot of fun. Unfortunately, she is a dog going downwind flat. Now, an '09 h36 that I sailed had a much wider beam for her length and liked to be sailed flatter. In my 30+ years as a charter sailboat captain and having sailed many different boats, I have to agree with @Valerio. Every boat is different. Everyone here has made some excellent points and I don't think anyone is wrong in their argument. We all come to this table with viewpoints based on our knowledge and experiences.
 
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uncledom

uncledom

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Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
I have always sailed my boats as flat as the admiral tells me. It’s the only way to sail. :biggrin:
 
J

Jeff Gray

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Nov 26, 2017
64
Hunter 260 Mille Lacs
Yes, indeed. The Admiral’s comfort is always the first consideration in choosing how much heel is appropriate, which is why I’m so happy to learn that if done right, flatter can be faster!!!
 
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Crazy Dave Condon

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Jun 8, 2004
10,469
-na -NA Anywhere USA
There are general statements but I remember one comment that O. Harken mentioned which is every model is a little different particularly comparing water ballast compared to fix keel boats. I followed his advice.
 
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