Anybody out there tried to see how far you could put your boat over? I used to have a Catalina 22 with a swing keel. She was pretty touchy and I had the rail in the water a few times. I'm sure I could have flopped her if I realy tried. Some boats will go over just so far and realy stiffen up. I haven't tried with my 1981 Hunter 27 and was wondering if anyone has tried to see how far over their boat will go over. If you have let us know what you have for a boat and how she handles being pushed over.
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Weight
I have been told it has a lot to do with weight. Probably to no ones surprise I have tried to do this with my Hunter 25. I ran on the rail for a good five minutes at a time during the wind gusts.(very exciting) My boat never rounded up. I don't believe my rudder came out of the water. But I was doing this on a calm river. I was planning on taking Calamity down to the Atlantic to test her out and was warned that if I did the same thing in 4 foot sees I could suffer a smack down. The difference is that extra 2500 lbs. of lead you have on the 27 as apposed to the swing keel on a catalina. Stephen Fierro Captain of Calamity
I have been told it has a lot to do with weight. Probably to no ones surprise I have tried to do this with my Hunter 25. I ran on the rail for a good five minutes at a time during the wind gusts.(very exciting) My boat never rounded up. I don't believe my rudder came out of the water. But I was doing this on a calm river. I was planning on taking Calamity down to the Atlantic to test her out and was warned that if I did the same thing in 4 foot sees I could suffer a smack down. The difference is that extra 2500 lbs. of lead you have on the 27 as apposed to the swing keel on a catalina. Stephen Fierro Captain of Calamity
Rail is the limit
On my O'22 with a shoal draft keel, the rail is the limit before she will round up. If you work at it with a gust, you can get the rail in the water. But you have serious weatehr helm on the rudder, the keel pops out and she rounds up and points straight into the wind.
On my O'22 with a shoal draft keel, the rail is the limit before she will round up. If you work at it with a gust, you can get the rail in the water. But you have serious weatehr helm on the rudder, the keel pops out and she rounds up and points straight into the wind.
Buccaneer 28
My brother's first boat was a Buccaneer 28. It was so tender that I had the motor out of the water without any sails!! Once we put the mast into the water from a wind that came over the mountain unexpectedly. We were barely moving in very light winds when suddenly we were knocked down!!! The gust wasn't really that strong but the Bucaneer was very tender. A friend and I had a contest to see who could get the most water in his Mac 25. My Mac 26 never had the mast in the water or water in the cockpit. Our present Pearson 323 went over to about 30 degrees yesterday which is almost rail in the water.
My brother's first boat was a Buccaneer 28. It was so tender that I had the motor out of the water without any sails!! Once we put the mast into the water from a wind that came over the mountain unexpectedly. We were barely moving in very light winds when suddenly we were knocked down!!! The gust wasn't really that strong but the Bucaneer was very tender. A friend and I had a contest to see who could get the most water in his Mac 25. My Mac 26 never had the mast in the water or water in the cockpit. Our present Pearson 323 went over to about 30 degrees yesterday which is almost rail in the water.
This thread can be fun.
My boat performs like Tims'. Same boat. Ah, P, we were talking about sailboats, not Bucceneer 28s.
My boat performs like Tims'. Same boat. Ah, P, we were talking about sailboats, not Bucceneer 28s.
35 degrees
35 is about as far as she'll go without rounding up. Unfortunately, she moves at a snail's pace when heeled over that far. We've been knocked down before, but she headed up and popped right back up. We've got a lot of freeboard, so it takes a LOT to get the toe rail wet. I do keep trying, though.
35 is about as far as she'll go without rounding up. Unfortunately, she moves at a snail's pace when heeled over that far. We've been knocked down before, but she headed up and popped right back up. We've got a lot of freeboard, so it takes a LOT to get the toe rail wet. I do keep trying, though.
it depends
On the design and it's really difficult to generalize even about a particular boat without knowing the types sails, keel design, etc. Keep the rudder in the water and you'll always have control Don
On the design and it's really difficult to generalize even about a particular boat without knowing the types sails, keel design, etc. Keep the rudder in the water and you'll always have control Don
Knock down is the worst
Most conversations with 20 year veterans of sailing on the Great Lakes result in a knock-down story. The cause is usually a blast ahead of a storm line, system, or major thunderhead. The wind strength is usually measured or estimated in the 50 to 80 knot range. The lesson is that everything below should be secured! The wind will not take a keel boat beyond 90 degrees. Breaking waves with a height greater than the beam can roll a sailboat 180 degrees if taken broadside. With steady winds, the effective sail area of the rig is dramatically reduced at heels around 35% to 45%. This, in turn reduces the tendency to heel further. So heeling in this range is usually caused by gusts (the extreme case described above) or bad tuning. I'll bet it would be really hard to get a Cherubini h27 (we have a '77 model) beyond 45 degrees without a dramatic gust. That's a big piece of lead down there! And if any of us was out in gale force winds, I doubt we would really feel like experimenting with overloading the rig to push it that far! Most monohulls are sailing slower beyond a 15 to 20 degree heel. The causes are reduced effective sail area, less efficient hull shape, and the increased rudder drag needed to hold a course as the rudder axis tilts (so the rudder pushes more down, and less sideways.) The last phenomenon leads to a round up when the rudder "stalls" losing it's lift (turning force) as the flow detaches from the back side. David Lady Lillie
Most conversations with 20 year veterans of sailing on the Great Lakes result in a knock-down story. The cause is usually a blast ahead of a storm line, system, or major thunderhead. The wind strength is usually measured or estimated in the 50 to 80 knot range. The lesson is that everything below should be secured! The wind will not take a keel boat beyond 90 degrees. Breaking waves with a height greater than the beam can roll a sailboat 180 degrees if taken broadside. With steady winds, the effective sail area of the rig is dramatically reduced at heels around 35% to 45%. This, in turn reduces the tendency to heel further. So heeling in this range is usually caused by gusts (the extreme case described above) or bad tuning. I'll bet it would be really hard to get a Cherubini h27 (we have a '77 model) beyond 45 degrees without a dramatic gust. That's a big piece of lead down there! And if any of us was out in gale force winds, I doubt we would really feel like experimenting with overloading the rig to push it that far! Most monohulls are sailing slower beyond a 15 to 20 degree heel. The causes are reduced effective sail area, less efficient hull shape, and the increased rudder drag needed to hold a course as the rudder axis tilts (so the rudder pushes more down, and less sideways.) The last phenomenon leads to a round up when the rudder "stalls" losing it's lift (turning force) as the flow detaches from the back side. David Lady Lillie
...hit 35-degrees
Should have known better when I left the daughter at the helm whilst I took a head break in our first year out on the C&C 34. She had the misguided notion that more heel was more speed. (It was the first time that I have ever used the facilities in a horizontal position....) Returned to the wheel and heard what sounded like a water fall from the stalled out rudder.
Should have known better when I left the daughter at the helm whilst I took a head break in our first year out on the C&C 34. She had the misguided notion that more heel was more speed. (It was the first time that I have ever used the facilities in a horizontal position....) Returned to the wheel and heard what sounded like a water fall from the stalled out rudder.
Swamped!
I was helping a friend move his 19' Harker's Island reproduction cat rigged Sharpie from Beaufort to the builder on Harker's Island for refurbishment. These are open, flat-bottomed, wooden centerboarders with wooden spars, canvas sails and no engine whatsoever. We were sailing on a broad reach in a moderate breeze and I was at the tiller. Our course and the wind dictated a jibe. As I swung the tiller, I shifted to the new windward seat and firmly planted my big arse on the mainsheet piled in the cockpit while controlling the long boom through the gibe. Needless to say, as I brought the tiller back amidships, the main filled while effectively sheeted flat as a board. Before realization of the cause of the predicament could set in, we were knocked flat and swamped. Unfortunately, while she would float, we wouldn't clear the gunnels high enough to be able to bail her. We were finally able to flag down a fisherman who kindly towed us to a nearby sandbar where we were able to bail her and resume our voyage. While it is a bit off-topic, I'd like to comment about the lessons learned. The mainsheet snafu was mere inattention and no real new lesson to be learned just an old one hammered home. The real lesson involved the fact that we assumed that the trip would take no longer than a couple of hours at most. As a result, we carried nothing but the minimum CG and common sense safety equipment. We ended up out there all afternoon sunburned and slightly dehydrated and we could easily have been out there all night. Added to my current 'basic' safety equipment list now is a 24 hour per person supply of water, an emergency thermal blanket, sunscreen and insect repellent.
I was helping a friend move his 19' Harker's Island reproduction cat rigged Sharpie from Beaufort to the builder on Harker's Island for refurbishment. These are open, flat-bottomed, wooden centerboarders with wooden spars, canvas sails and no engine whatsoever. We were sailing on a broad reach in a moderate breeze and I was at the tiller. Our course and the wind dictated a jibe. As I swung the tiller, I shifted to the new windward seat and firmly planted my big arse on the mainsheet piled in the cockpit while controlling the long boom through the gibe. Needless to say, as I brought the tiller back amidships, the main filled while effectively sheeted flat as a board. Before realization of the cause of the predicament could set in, we were knocked flat and swamped. Unfortunately, while she would float, we wouldn't clear the gunnels high enough to be able to bail her. We were finally able to flag down a fisherman who kindly towed us to a nearby sandbar where we were able to bail her and resume our voyage. While it is a bit off-topic, I'd like to comment about the lessons learned. The mainsheet snafu was mere inattention and no real new lesson to be learned just an old one hammered home. The real lesson involved the fact that we assumed that the trip would take no longer than a couple of hours at most. As a result, we carried nothing but the minimum CG and common sense safety equipment. We ended up out there all afternoon sunburned and slightly dehydrated and we could easily have been out there all night. Added to my current 'basic' safety equipment list now is a 24 hour per person supply of water, an emergency thermal blanket, sunscreen and insect repellent.
Chris,
On that note, worse would be no wind in a boat like that. And even worse would be wind at the start of a crossing and then lifting. That happened to a friend back in the 70s. He was in the same type boat as yours and was caught in the Straights of Juan de Fuca for FOUR DAYS before the wind filled in. His only motion was back and forth on the tide. Why didn't he flag down some help? You would have to know him. *o
On that note, worse would be no wind in a boat like that. And even worse would be wind at the start of a crossing and then lifting. That happened to a friend back in the 70s. He was in the same type boat as yours and was caught in the Straights of Juan de Fuca for FOUR DAYS before the wind filled in. His only motion was back and forth on the tide. Why didn't he flag down some help? You would have to know him. *o
Added note for Fred...
Actually, it is a bit unfair for me to call her a reproduction. She was built by a fourth or fifth generation Harker's Island boat builder, according to family tradition, just as if she were being made for a waterman tending nets for a living. A pair of handmade oars, locks and leathers were included by the builder and were aboard. We just couldn't row her while swamped without unstepping the mast. Since she was used strictly for recreational sailing and few, if any, owners actually use them commercially around here anymore, I think of her as a reproduction boat.
Actually, it is a bit unfair for me to call her a reproduction. She was built by a fourth or fifth generation Harker's Island boat builder, according to family tradition, just as if she were being made for a waterman tending nets for a living. A pair of handmade oars, locks and leathers were included by the builder and were aboard. We just couldn't row her while swamped without unstepping the mast. Since she was used strictly for recreational sailing and few, if any, owners actually use them commercially around here anymore, I think of her as a reproduction boat.
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