How do we count experience?

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Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I am just a bit confused by the various claims of experience voiced on this forum. Robin Graham was only 16 years old when he set out to sail around the world. Tania Abei was still a teenager when her Dad offered her college or sail around the world. The biggest boat I had ever sailed was a 15 foot Grumman canoe with outriggers and a self built sailing rig when I bought what would become Bietzpadlin. I don't believe that the years of exposure to the boating world count for nearly as much as how well a person applies him/herself to the task. Donna Lange,(whom many of us are following) has been sailing for about five years. She does much of her own repair work and is expecting to complete a solo circumnavigation this month. I can say that I have stared at the moon for 68 years but if I haven't sturdied the physics of it's motion then any high school physics student knows more about it than I do. So I repeat the question,"How do we measure experience?"
 
P

Peter

applying yourself, right on

Ross, you hit the nail on the head when you say it depends on how well the person applies him/herself to the task. I've only been sailing a few years but I consider myself knowledgeable in local conditions and many yard tasks. At the same time, experience and wisdom go hand-in-hand, and it is said that a good portion of wisdom is knowing what you don't know. So I think the really experienced people we see as wise are acutely aware of how much more experience there is to gain; a little invaluable humility. There are many people I have seen sailing or doing yard work that supposedly have years of experience, but I can tell you I'm seriously questioning their judgement. Sometimes you get to see the results, and it ain't pretty. Funny thing is the whole time they're stuck on the high horse.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Experience

Good question Ross. For me I have been around boats of one kind of another for over 40 years. ( I too am a 68yo )In the last three years I have sailed the US coast line from Long Island to Mexico,both inshore and in the ditch, most of it more than once. Made a couple of trips across the Gulf. And I still read things on this forum and on others that I didn't know, or hadn't thought about. My emotions are somewhat mixed. Sometimes I think that experience is the single most important factor, and then I read something and it is obvious that luck is still in the mix. I am assuming that this pertains to something happening, while on a boat, that puts one in a bad situation. In this case I believe that experience plays a big part in helping make the correct decision, but it can still come down to a matter of being in the right or wrong place at the right or wrong time. Certainly I do not have a definitive answer.
 

Ferg

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Mar 6, 2006
115
Catalina 27 C27 @Thunder Bay ON Ca.
Mistakes we live through?

The most experienced sailor I’ve known, (who passed away last fall) once told me; “The more time you spend on the water, the greater the odds you’re going to screw up or get caught in some new calamity. “Experience” lays in what you learned by surviving it……” (Captain Paul Morton 1948- 2006) Later eh….. Ferg
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Experience vs skill

The units of experience are measured in time The units of skill are measured in determination and self confidence. To amass a lot of experience just takes doing it for a long time. It has very little to do with sailing. This is because you can pick up a book and get the experiences that it took the author a lifetime to acquire. Sailing is mostly about skill. If you are determined enough and not afraid to do what it takes to get the job done then you are going to be fine. A case in point. When I started sailing I knew 0 about it. It was my wife's dream not mine. But my family was going to be out on the water where I realized I would be their only asset should something bad happen. My wife is not very mechanically minded and the boys where 4,6, and 7 so keeping up the maintenance and keeping us out of trouble fell squarely on my shoulders. I had to develop the skills of a sailor in a very short period of time if I was going to insure that my family remained safe. So I read some books pulled on my past experiences in auto mechanics, plumbing and electricity and got the advice for folks we met at the sailing club. Since I "became a student" of the art I found that about 3 months into it I was actually noticing folks in the club who had been sailing for 20 years who where not very knowledgeable about sailing. Stuff like not knowing the names for things or understanding how to read the tail-tells on a jib. Early on I bumped into an old salt who asked me if I ever ran aground. I said every time we go out we run aground. I had unknowingly passed his test. On the Chesapeake Bay the only folks that don't run aground stay at the dock. He took me under his wing and we became fast friends. So you see it is not about how many years you have spent "sailing" it is about how much effort you put into it. Then all you have to do is get out there and not be afraid to play around with the stuff you are learning. Go out when there are 20 knots of wind and you learn in short order that 20 knots is not that much wind once you have the boat set up correctly. So it does not suprise me that a 16 year old can sail around the world alone. Nor does it surprise me that a 30 year old with 10 years of sailing can get himself killed trying the same thing. One became a student and the other just thought he knew it.
 
May 24, 2004
125
Ericson E-23 Smith Mt. Lake
Amen to the previous remarks

Experience can cause an increase in skills, but only if the individual is aware and receptive to learning something new. Just being there and happening to survive does not mean the person has learned much, or that he is more able to make it through alive the next time. Most of us probably know sailors who have a relatively high opinion of their skills, but the best ones I know are honestly modest and always looking to learn something new. Sir Isaac Newton, considered by many experts to be the greatest mathematician, said (approximately), "When I consider what I know and compare it to what is yet to be learned, I feel as a child on the shore of a vast ocean playing amongst the shells and pebbles."
 
Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
By how well you deal with adversity

The truly experienced remain rational and creative when adversity strikes. They know that forethought and preparation can help them avoid adversity in the first place...which is often the best way to deal with it. I've found the truly experienced to be secure yet humble in their knowledge, quite aware that they don't know everything and receptive to learning and experiencing more. By the way, good topic Ross. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,342
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Experience means you can remember

what you need to when the sh*t hits the fan Age means you forgot already Sailing means you're out there doing it and will use the experience unless age hits you first :) :) :)
 
Nov 27, 2005
163
- - West Des Moines, Iowa
Accomplishments?

Anyone can own a boat for 35 years and never leave the dock. Then there are people that have had their boats 2 years and done a lot. Question is 'What have you "done" with the boat?' What conditions, situations (the more varied the better)
 
B

Benny

By the number of significant ocurrences

where something new was learned. Has nothing to do with years nor schooling. Reading or studying gives you information but until you apply that knowledge you have not gained experience. I don't believe it has to do with years, as repeating the same things you experienced and learned from in year # one for twenty years afterwards does not give you but one year experience. To acquire experience at a discipline like sailing you need to work on it systematically. Don't wait to accidentally get caught in a 35-45 knot squall to learn what to do; go out there when the conditions are present and do it on your terms, no admiral no kids and perhaps a couple of trusted crewmembers. I have learned more about how to handle foul weather by proactively setting myself to learn that by the accidental weather encountered in years of cruisin. If every time you go out you try just one new thing You will be gaining experience. Learning that something does not work is also experience. If you compile all those things you have learned first hand and put them on a list that is experience. You do not need negative experiences, if somebody tells you if you do that you are going to fall and break your head don't do it, it is not experience but good common sense. I find we each assign different meanings to words so what may be experience for me maybe a different thing to somebody else and that is what makes this world interesting.
 
Aug 30, 2006
118
- - -
Multiple mistakes

every time i go out, and usually one that even my wife recognizes still. School of hard knocks, scratches, and embarrassments.
 

CalebD

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Jun 27, 2006
1,479
Tartan 27' 1967 Nyack, NY
Been there done that

is the way most human minds work. Once you have been trough a nasty inlet on an ebbing tide you might think that you have been there and done that so it wont be as frightening the next time. Wrong, but mostly right. You build up experience by surviving each challenge. If you do not push the envelope than you will not learn much but you will still get better at sailing/navigating, but only marginally.. Going different places in different weather changes everything in the experience of just doing it. The ocean is as moody as any mistress and can show you a wonderful or torturous time depending on her mood. Each time out on Neptunes waters is a gamble. You can see the best and worst of the sea. Surviving and remaining in control of your faculties is of most importance though. Dont you think that 'experience' on many different boats counts? Do you have to see a log of a persons sailing experiences before allowing them to take your tiller or wheel? I think that we all accept certain people into our oun personal sailing gang and grant them honorary skipper status when they are aboard. Some people know more about wind dynamics and Bernulli's principle than we do and some dont. Experience is a subjective term. I have sailed across and through LI Sound but only on days that it was comfortable. We motored mostly but who cares if we covered the 100 miles with main up or down and sails up or down over a few days. It is like that John Vigor saying about the 'Black Box' that you put your chits into every time you do some maintenance on your boat that will come back to you when you need it most. Good post Ross.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I sometimes think that by reading

of the experience of others I gain insight into how I can apply that knowledge to new situations. When I took the helm on Bietzpadlin for the first time I had never before had to steer so large and heavy a boat. If I hadn't read about prop-walk and how to deal with it I would have been completely bewildered by the lack of control while trying to back the boat. I have developed methods to use prop walk to advantage and to over come it when docking. The collision avoidance knowledge that utilizes "constant bearing" also applies with cars. Coming to a cross roads in Illinois farm country there was a grain truck approaching on the cross road. I could see him for a mile and he stayed in the same spot on the windshield. I slowed down just a bit and he blew through the intersection without stopping. All of our life learning experience can be applied across the spectrum of our endeavour. Only if we choose to work without skill will our experience and knowledge fail us. A farmer may well know more about ropes and rigging and how to apply leverage than a boater. So if you take a farmer out boating for the first time you may be supprized by how well he knows the ropes.
 

MKing

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May 31, 2005
68
Beneteau 343 Ten Mile TN
A Yardstick

Ross, I think most would accept Merriam-Webster's definition of experience> 1a: direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge b:the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation 2a: a practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity b: the length of such participation I think a wise man would measure experience with a yardstick of his own design rather than one fashioned by another and adopted as his own. We talk about our years sailing, boats owned, trips taken, etc. to lend credibility to our comments and statements...Aw heck...Now I'm Confused! Have a great day!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,759
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I think all three are important..

Skill, the art of knowing what to do, how to do it, and under any circumstances. Experience, the more years you have the more good, bad or indifferent experiences you have to learn from. No matter how much someone applies them selves or reads the books you will not encounter every situation, to possibly learn from, in two or three years on the water, sailing only bays or lakes. Sailing is a life long learning event that I don't believe is ever truly mastered. You are a lifelong student of the sea and no one can "own" it 100%. I learn something new every time I go out and if I don't it means I was not applying my self or paying attention. Knowledge, is the all powerful tool but if one has no clue how to get it from the brain to the fingers or translate that knowledge into an actual repair at sea, a make shift rudder, or a sail change in 35 knots and 6 foot seas then the knowledge is useless. A case in point, I've been on the water a long time and have had to untangle lobster pots from rudders, props & keels more times than I'd like to admit. I have made dives, at sea, and in bays, literally 50+ times to untangle lines fouled. In Maine it's almost unavoidable like finding the bottom in the Chess. Two summers ago at the mouth of a very large, powerful river in Maine we snagged a pot that had been taken just under the surface by the strong current. I did everything I had learned in the past, from multiple events/experiences, like attaching my dive knife to my wrist lanyard using a better method, putting on my gloves so I don't cut myself on the prop or the "so called" line cutter, attaching my safety line so I don't get separated from the boat, putting on my wet suit & keeping all these items in a quickly accessible bag so I can be in the water in under 2 minutes if I have to. Well I had done this numerous times in my life but learned something NEW that day too as one should. It was very rough and the boat was being tossed around fairly abruptly. On my second dive under as I came up to grab for the prop shaft the hull came down on my head hard! Now this had never happened before, I never read about it in any of my books, and I was always careful and confident that I could hold myself off of the hull with my hand on the prop shaft but I was wrong! I learned something that day, like many others, and now have an 8mm wet suit hat, with extra foam padding, for cold water divers to prevent me from getting knocked out or severely cutting my head. Mellon padding is good as I learned that day! Every dive, like every sail, I learned something. Once it was dropping my knife due to a poorly executed lanyard, once was holding on to the prop shaft with one hand while working with the other, once was wear fins etc. etc.. These particular things I learned are not in your average sailing books and have to be learned from experience, however you care to define experience, or reading ones account of it on here. I will never go under my boat again without my "padded hat". Experience is a broad term, meaning one thing to one person and another to someone else, and on here has become synonymous with the famous Bill Clinton-ism "well it depends on what the definition of the word "is" is". To me experience means you have experienced a lot, learned form it and grown from your experiences. I include skill, knowledge, individual learning experiences and mechanical aptitudes within my own personal definition. My wife is in the medical field and they refer to it as clinical experience. Experience being the all encompassing term including knowledge and skill. My opinion is that the cumulative years will eventually lead to experience regardless of how well you apply your self. Yet if you truly apply your self you can accelerate the experience learning curve but never totally replace time and the thousands of experiences gained over a longer period of years spent doing. Sit down and talk with some local sailing legends and see just how much they know and I think you'll be amazed. Dodge Morgan and Merle Hallett are a couple that come to for me & I doubt with their combined 120+ years of experience there isn't much those two have not encountered or experienced regardless of how well Merle applies himself at 80+ years of age. I bet both of them will be the first to admit they still learn too..
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Maine Sail, Thanks! I don't need to get knocked

on the head to see the benefit of your experience. I have snorkeled around coral reefs and won't go into that water without leather shoes.
 
Jun 5, 2004
249
Hunter 36 Newburyport, MA
Another two cents

I have less than 10,000nm of coastal Atlantic sailing under my belt, but it seems to me (so far) that SKILL = KNOWLEDGE + EXPERIENCE I've gained a lot of knowledge from books, internet discussion forums and boat yard tales. However, until I could actually put it into practice on my specific boat and in my specific waters it didn't become a real addition to my skill base. I have also (l)earned skills directly from the experience of surviving unrequested challenges (like having to cross the Merrimac entrance bar while surfing 8-foot breakers, or surviving a knock-down in a summer thunderstorm). However, as one of my favorite sayings goes: "Experience is a cruel teacher; first comes the test - then the lesson." I have found that constantly trying to acquire knowledge beforehand from the experiences of others converts a potential cruel lesson into a (somewhat) prepared-for session of reinforcement-into-skill. I can then purposely go out into conditions that are more challenging than I've dealt with before, but appear within limits that should be manageable if the knowledge I've acquired is reasonably correct/applicable (usually singlehanded, to avoid adding the need for crew-calming to the mix). I like letting guys like some of you get the bumps on the head that give me knowledge so that if I'm ever forced into similar situations I'll have a degree of preparation for the experience and gain another skill. <g> Thanks, guys.
 
Jan 11, 2007
294
Columbia 28 Sarasota
Here's my 2 cents...

As newbies to the fine sport of sailing, everytime I am on my boat I experience something that I hadn't experienced before. Whether it's making the mistake of leaving my boat on the lunch hook and going for a 45 minute nature walk coming back to NO BOAT. Getting caught in a 45 minute squall with 50+ mph winds and riding it out on anchor, navigating a new channel, marina, drawbridge, or most recently an anchor field in the Florida Keys that was not suited for my anchor and breaking loose twice or coming into a dock to fast and bumping my Boat Babe in the drink at 1 am. Been there, done that, have the scars to prove it. All of these experiences at the time seemed intimidating, scary or just otherwise uncomfortable. But in the year now that my family has been sailing on Lola, we have done trips and maintenance, countless overnights on anchor that many people haven't even dreamt of doing. My wifes cousin, lives in Chicago, and has a nice 28 footer that they are partners in. They have been sailing for years, and they have yet to take their boat to a destination, anchor, and enjoy a peaceful night at anchor to wake up to birds and that first cup of coffee. This is all the stuff that we do on a regular basis. That is the magic of sailing to us. It is our own island, our own waterfront property. A breezy day doesn't go by when I don't put my face to wind and wish I were out on my boat. It has become a passion, my motivation to make it through another week. I feel shorted if a week passes that I do not get to put Lola in the water. "that which doesn't kill us, only makes us stronger" and my other favorite "Attitude... the difference between an ordeal and an adventure" (thanks Bob) Sorry for the ramble Ross in Tampa 1979 Oday 25 "Lola"
 

MKing

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May 31, 2005
68
Beneteau 343 Ten Mile TN
Another Thought

Because one is experienced does not necessarily mean that he is more skilled or wiser if he has not applied the lessons learned. My proof being how many of my favorite tools are at the bottom of my slip and I occasionally still bang my head exiting the rear berth!
 
Dec 2, 2003
480
Catalina C-320 Washington, NC
Listen to a Cowboy

I think one could fairly sum up most of this discussion in a few sentences. Experience is all about learning, but it is useless without good judgment. Will Rodgers, though not a sailor, probably described learning best: "There are three kinds of men: *The ones that learn by reading. *The few who learn by observation. *The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence." And: "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment." My personal observation is that no amount of learning or experience will prevent an idiot with poor judgment from repeatedly peeing on the electric fence.
 
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