How do I see the jib?

[Geoff K]

I've read Don's book and am amazed at how little I know. Now I'm trying to put some of that new knowledge to work. (Or rather, I'm trying to use the info in the book so it becomes new knowledge to me.) While practicing yesterday I realized I can not see the jib when on any reach below a close reach. The main blocks the view completely. How do I look at the leech and tell-tales of the jib without leaving the cockpit?

Geoff

 

[OldCat]

In most conditions a 32 foot boat is big enough that you can sit on the lee side - the bigger the boat the less you are important to the ballast. I think even on many race boats with the rail meat out, the helmsman will feel that it is better to be able to watch the sails than be ballast.

When the air is light, I will sit to lee even on my C22. Also, while not as good as optimally placed tell tales, I also installed a set of tell tales low down on my genny so that I could see something more than just low down luff bubble from the windward side as well. They are where they can be seen below the boom.

OC

 

[Don Guillette]

Geoff: Don't feel bad about learning about sail trim. NO ONE was born with the knowledge all though some sailors sound like they were. We all had to learn it. You have taken the steps to learn sail trim and soon you'll know more about it than 75% of the sailors worldwide. Try some of the topics in my book on your dock neighbors or YC members. You'll be amazed at the answers you'll get!! They'll mix up the answers and inside of 2 to 3 minutes you'll know whether they know their onions about sail trim or not - in 75% of the cases it will be NOT.

I'm not sure if your boat is a masthead or fractional rig. With a masthead rig, the jib is the engine. Let's assume your boat is a masthead rig and that you are single handed (if not, the jib trimmer can see the jib). If it is a masthead rig, obviously we have to make sure the jib is trimmed to 100% efficiency. To do this you don't have to see the entire sail. All you need to see is your TELLTALES. You've got telltales on your jib (and mainsail) don't you?!?! I know you have them but if not, get a set before you go on your next sail. Installing the telltales is just the first step. You've got to know what they are telling you so you can adjust accordingly. Before your next sail, read the 7 pages concerning telltales in the SAIL TRIM USERS GUIDE.

Always take THE SAIL TRIM USERS GUIDE into the bathroom or head with you. Don't leave it there for your wife to read - woman pick up sail trim faster than men and you don't want her to know more about sail trim than you do!! Actually, you want her to be as good as you as it may come in handy some day in tough conditions.

 

[Don Guillette]

Geoff: Missed the last sentence in your message - I see you have telltales.

 

[Geoff K]

Actually, I do not have telltales on the jib yet. From your book I know I need them and thus asked the question as to what my sail will be. Are the inexpensive stick on tell tales adequate or is there something unique to good tell tales? Are there rules (or rules of thumb) for where to put the tell tales? I don't recall seeing it in your book but am reading it again and will find it if it's there. (I read the book last fall but not at time I could correlate my reading with my sailing. That's my job this season.)

The main has 2 tell tales at the leech, about 1/4 and 1/2 way from the top.

It's a mast head rig, roller furled but the sail is made over from a conventional hanked on sail. No tell tales; no windows.

We sail as a couple, usually she at the helm and me trimming but we trade off in hopes we both can do both. I can not see the jib from the leeward jib winch when sailing 60 degrees or greater to the wind. The end of the boom is about 2 feet into the cockpit. I've not tried sitting outside the cockpit cowl. That may work, but it looks quite uncomfortable.

Thanks much for your help.

Geoff

 

[Don Guillette]

Geoff: Stick on plastic or yarn are fine. Some guys even use old video tape film. I've even used the green tape used to tie up tomato plants!!

Usually 3 telltales are installed on the mainsail. Split the sail in thirds. The most important mainsail telltail is the top one. That one is your twist indicator. I also installed a set (one on each side) in about the middle of the sail. I read them just like the ones on the jib.

The jib requires 3 sets of two (one on each side). Don't place them back to back. The reason for that is you want to see the shadow of each through the sail since you don't have a window. The most important jib telltales are the middle ones. If you buy them from West Marine or BoatUS or wherever they come with directions.

Great to see husbands and wives sailing together. My wife always sailed with me. Unfortuately, I knew some married guys in Long Beach, Ca (where I kept my boat) and in over 10 years I never saw the wife at the boat once. That was sad to me.

I also had a set on the shrouds. Obviously, I'm a fan of telltales. With the ones on the shrouds I knew with a glance if I was sailing in the groove. Then I'd shift to the ones on the sails for fine tuning.

Any questions you have about sail trim you should just fire away with. As you can see there are a lot of guys like Stu J and Rich H that really know what they are talking about and are more than willing to share their knowledge with you.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Geoff, Don mentioned something very important: The Groove. Especially going upwind, you'll find it once you get your telltales installed, you will be able to find it and keep it with some minor helm adjustments. On further reaches you will simply have to move forward on the leeward side or up on the windward side to watch the telltales, set the jib and trim. Remember, unless you're racing, it's closer to "set it and forget it" than it is for constant resettings unless the wind is extremely fluky. I sail singlehanded often, and find myself moving all over the boat to see the jib once past a close or beam reach - it's the nature of the beast and you can't change the physics of where the sails are, so ya gotta move da body, mon! I also spend very, very little time behind the wheel except going to a broad reach then ddw and w&w. Depending on the size of your jib/genoa, once past a beam reach there's not much adjusting of the jib depending on how it is cut.

 

[Geoff K]

Thanks everyone. This is a great help. Since my last post I've scanned Don's book and I see I really didn't absorb much of it when I read it last fall. Now that it's sailing time again I will read again, take the users guide out before I raise the sails, and practice. I'll be back with more questions if I can't find the answer in Don's book. As I mentioned in another thread, (I've had 3 going, got a lot to learn.) I'll print this out and keep it in the book, on the boat.

Thanks much

Geoff

 

[Joe]

Geoff... sit on the windward rail/coaming so you can see your LOWER set of jib LUFF tell tales.... they are sometimes called the STEERING tell tales. If you buy a set of telltales there will be instructions included that explain where to mount them and how to use them.

Use all other sets of tales to set your twist (don's guide will show you how to do this)....but once you're satisfied with the trim... keep your eye on the front, lowest set of tales to help you stay in the groove... the cue is to steer away from the flutter... in other words, if the leeward string is sagging your sail is stalling.. so head up. If the windward side is sagging... bear off. Generally you will be trying to keep both sides flying back... but there are variations.. here's a great site to explain this:

http://www.arvelgentry.com/Telling_tales.htm

 

[RichBone]

What should I be looking for on the shroud telltales?

Rich

 

[Don Guillette]

Rich: You read them just like the jib telltales - when the boat is in the groove they both will be streaming back. If one or the other sags then you're off. They sell shroud telltales at West Marine and other places. They are attached to a split plastic washer that snap on the shroud but you can make your own also. The store bought ones are just a little more trick.

If you really want to squeeze that extra bit of power out of your jib then try this. Get both middle telltales streaming and then pinch up just a little bit so the inside telltale just starts to "flip" about once every 3 to 5 seconds. At that point your sail is giving everything she has to give.

As I said I'm a dingy about telltales and that is because I feel they are absolutely the most important sail trim indicator on the boat. No non-electric devise has been developed that approaches their sensitivity and effectiveness and it doesn't matter if you are a cruiser or racer. I hear all the time from sailors that they are "just cruisers". I really don't know what that means. Actually, what it means is the sailor has no idea what all the controls for the main and jib are used for. Even if a mate is the most far out cruiser God created and all he wants to do is roll out the jib and raise the main, down deep inside doesn't he want to get at least some performance out of his boat or at least get it to move through the water? If he doesn't he should consider buying a power boat.

It is difficult for me to trim sails without telltales and I know what I'm looking for. On any boat I go on I always carry my "green tomato plant tie" just in case they don't have telltales.

 

[RichH]

All-
Sail trim, etc., the use of tell-tales is not solely for 'performance'.
Consider such to be a SAFETY ISSUE.

If a boat is trimmed, etc. to close to its OPTIMUM you will have less chance of being unexpectedly 'overwhelmed', rolled, 'dunked', capsized, etc. because anything less than OPTIMUM is 'LESS'.

Being in good trim you will have less chance to unexpectedly 'power up', etc. and 'become surprised'. SAFETY !!!!!!!!

Start with the 'basics' and 'grow' from there ... you'll never stop learning and it will become quite satisfying to be able to control your boat under almost all conditions; and, without having a big knot in your stomach and a 'puckering sphincter' when the conditions turn to much less than ideal.

;-)

 

[Todd Smith]

Geoff,

Once cracked off to a reach, you will just have to move forward and then go back to the winch and trim in or ease out. Then move again to check the results. It's a bit of work. Or have one person foward to call instructions back to the trimmer at the winch. It also might be able to see from the weather side rail. How easy thay much moving around depends on the shape of your cockpit.

For cruising I would work a while to get it pretty good and then just steer to the wind shifts.

Also, you should be looking at the luff of the jib, not the leech.