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How did you fix....

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M

Member 41673

Reliance owners - Please post technical questions, solutions, photos & plain old WTF's? on this thread.

Rick Goltz
S/V Voyager
Reliance 44 #3
 
M

Member 41673

Prop Aperature

The attached photo shows how I enlarged the prop aperature. I'm holding-up the upper piece that I cut out. There was a similar piece cut out of the bottom of the aperature. Also note the streamlining to get the prop some water flow. This is one of the best mods I've ever done to Voyager. Now that I can swing the correct sized prop, she motors powerfully in any condition. Pierre told me that at some point in the Reliance production run they realized the aperature was too small & they began making them larger, so your boat may already have the enlarged version.

Also, you can see my new home-made rudder hinges. When we arrived in the Marshall Islands, both the upper & lower fiberglass hinges were cracked & breaking. I replaced them with an all-stainless version. I simply bent some stainless bar stock into a "U" shape, machined & welded-in a cup shaped stainless "bushing housing" and then machined a nylon bushing to fit between the bushing housing & the rudder post. That was 10,000 nmi ago, so I guess it worked. The only real trick here was match-drilling the thru bolts that hold the hinges on. I simply ordered an extra-long drill bit & did it all in one pass.

Rick
 

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M

Member 41673

Hard Top

In this photo you can see the hard top under construction. It's basically made of plywood, hollowed-out & filled with foam in stratigic areas for weight reasons, then fiberglassed. I also had to build a matching combing on the cabin top & revise my aft pulpit to provide support. Oh yea - I also removed the mizzen mast.

This is another mod that we love. Voyager has a dry cockpit in all conditions. We don't even carry heavy weather clothes on board. We don't miss the mizzen one little bit either. We never found it to be much help and the added sophistication, not to mention all the noise of the cables inside it are not missed at all.

Rick
 

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M

Member 41673

Rudder

The other half of the prop aperature enlargement mod took place in the rudder. I "skinned" the rudder, and cut-out the required space. This completely severed all the structure that connected the upper & lower posts, so then I welded-in some replacement structure to tie it all back together. It looks really ugly in there because it's a combination of what was left-over after the cut-out, plus the new stuff that I "scabbed" on. Then, when all the structural stuff was done, I re-glassed the whole thing. You can see part of the finished product in the prop aperature photo in my other posting.

If you look in the upper right hand corner of the picture you will see the jig that I built the hard top over.

Rick
 

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M

Member 41673

Putting it all together

The attached photo shows the new hard top installed, the enlarged prop aperature & the last time my new paint job looked good. Note the custom pulpit that supports the aft end of the hard top & also holds the life raft (I hated it on deck). You can't quite see the integral swim ladder that hinges-down out of the pulpit.

This is also a good picture of the cradle I built to transport & store Voyager in (see the other posting showing the haul-out at Kwajalein). Also note the old aviation ladder that I literally dragged out of the dump!

Rick
 

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M

Member 41673

Hauling out "Kwaj" style

The attached photo shows how to do it the hard way. There was no travel lift available in the Marshall Islands, but there was plenty of heavy equipment. So, I built a cradle, pulled the masts, put the cradle on the flat bed, put the boat in the cradle, transported it all to the boat yard, lifted the boat off the cradle, put the cradle on the ground & put the boat in the cradle. Whew! Then I simply reversed the whole process to go back in the water. I did this whole thing twice! because I was in the Marshall Islands (off & on) for 6 years.

Rick
 

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mm08

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Dec 21, 2008
17
Reliance 44 - -
As Rick posted above I too wanted a larger prop so opened up the aperature a little more. I now have a 3 bladed MaxProp.

P1040497.JPG

There is room for the prop to feather, though in the picture it looks close. I will have thrust stops for the engine as well to protect the prop.

I simply added foam and then filled the cutout in the rudder with Epoxy and fiberglass cloth. I did it in such a way as to allow me to remove it at some point if I want more clearance or to remove the prop shaft some day.

This is no small modification as I am sure Rick would agree. I built back on the inside of the hull with 20+ layers of WR and 40+ layers of CSM. Tapered onto the hull up to 30” per side. In the picture you can make out the strap I added to the outside of the hull. I built up the area above and below the cut out as well so I can add two more hinge point to the rudder if I some day want to.

I wanted a large enough engine incase of an emergency so now I have a 62HP Kubota based Nanni engine. It is set completely under the cabin sole with 4” above it. I will have fireproof insulation and a fireproof mate above it. I picked the engine due to its low height.

Neil
 

mm08

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Dec 21, 2008
17
Reliance 44 - -
Hi Rick,

I see you opened up the rudder on your boat. I like what you did by adding the two additional hinge points. In my mind the rudder seems to be the weak point on the boat only having two attachments. That being said I have never heard of any problems with the rudders. If I may I have a few questions:


1. Was there some reason why you did what you did other than you were making a larger cut out?

2. Had your boat been sailed much before you did this work, if so what did you find inside as far as any working or wear goes? Also to the condition of the fiberglass skin?

3. Was there a bonding strap of some type between the upper and lower posts? I want to add a zinc on the rudder if not.

4. What was the condition of the lower keel shoe and its mounting hardware? You may take note that on mine the long angle bolt that comes in from the bottom was brass. I replaced all the bolts with silicon bronze. I was not able to get the bolts I needed so made my own from bar stock. On the thru bolts I put a nut on both ends. As for the shoe itself I have been assured they are bronze but I did not have it tested. Did you see any signs of dezincification? And was it bonded or zinced in any way?

5. Is the rudderpost in the picture the original or did you replace the entire post? Yours looks to be stainless mine is bronze.

If you have more pictures of the rudder job I would like to see them. I want to see what you did to carry the load thru the center area. I made the rear of the keel solid so I can add hinge points later if I want.

Neil
 
M

Member 41673

Voyagers Rudder

Hi Neil -

The reason I opened-up the aperature was so that I could swing the correct sized prop. The previous owner compensated for the too small prop problem by changing the gearing in the tranny to spin the prop faster. As a result, Voyager didn't motor very well & made lots of cavitation noise. My Perkins 4-236 is so powerful that I could easily spin the prop right up into cavitation mode. I installed a larger, fixed 3 blade & it motored wonderfully. Using this arrangement, I motored 1500 nmi from Chuuk to Kwajalein against 20 - 25 kt headwinds & steep chop. It was miserable, but it was miserable at 6kts! Since then, I have gone to a feathering prop. It doesn't motor quite as powerfully, but now I get an extra knot of speed on all points of sail - even at the top!

The fiberglass hull is in good shape. The only place I've had any problem is water intrusion into the deck & cockpit floor, causing the balsa coring to rot & become soft. I've become adept at "skinning" the affected area, digging out the rot, building it back-up & then putting the origional skin right back on over the repair.

My upper & lower rudder posts are connected by welded structure, and so, are bonded. All the structure in my rudder, the hinges & the rudder shoe are all stainless, and home-made. As such, all this hardware is pretty much impervious to anything. If you want to make the rudder hinges, let me know & I'll tell you the process I used - It was easy! Your configuration with the continuous rudder post is completely different than mine. I don't think I have any more pictures of the rudder, but I'll look.

Hope this answers your questions

Rick
S/V Voyager
Reliance 44 #3
 

mm08

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Dec 21, 2008
17
Reliance 44 - -
Hi Rick,

Thanks for the reply. Its good to know about your rudder and that it is all stainless steel inside. As I said mine has a bronze rudderpost and lower shoe. I thought they were all like mine but seems not so. I will be putting a small zinc on the rudder shoe itself, then bond the upper rudderpost to the boat bonding system zinc. Hopefully I won’t loose too much metal. I would say keep an eye on your stainless as well even it too can leech out over time.

What was used inside the original rudder for filler (Foam, balsa, fiberglass)? My rudder is so heavy I would like to know what is in it. How thick were the side skins or shell? Looks like from the picture you posted you went back with solid glass for filler right? I have always been told you want a rudder to have neutral buoyancy so as not to give a shift in helm when heeled. I am sure mine will be noticeable if this is true for it is heavy.

Neil
 

mm08

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Dec 21, 2008
17
Reliance 44 - -
Hi Axel,

In the Email you sent me with the pictures I had ask for you ask about the edge of my deck. On my hull/deck there is no toe rail at all. There are only the bolts. If you were to remove your wood edge I think this is what you will find under it. I took a picture of it so you can see as well.

P1040577.JPG
I like the type of rail that Rick has on his deck. It looks like an aluminum extrusion, they are very nice. What ever you use make sure you leave some open areas at the low point so water won’t stand on the deck.

Neil
 
M

Member 41673

Hi Neil -

After re-reading your posting, I don't think I answered all your questions...

My rudder consists of a sheet of plywood in the center with ss structure on each side of the wood. Foam fills-in the space betwen the structural components. In my picture, the red stuff you see is microbaloon filler to level some of the uneven areas. After that it's all glass. I'm not sure if it would float or not.

Here's a question for all - My steering system (quadrant, pully mounts, etc.) are all home-made. How about yours? I notice Edson sells a complete steering system for Reliance 44's. Sombody must be buying them??

Bye

Rick
 

mm08

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Dec 21, 2008
17
Reliance 44 - -
Hi Rich,

My steering system I had made by Lewmar. It is a pedestal with a shaft going down under the cockpit floor to a lever arm. The lever arm is connected to another arm on the rudderpost with a push pull tube between them. It is very simple. The gearing in the pedestal is very nice all stainless and bronze.

Neil
 
Dec 1, 2008
13
Reliance 44 - Lelystad Haven, The Netherlands
Rick,

You mention 'skinning'. Water has made it's way in between the cabin ceiling in one place. How does your skinning work? I have managed to saw a piece out but it was still terribly stuck. Underneath I found soft, very wet balsa wood. Other places it was still suprisingly hard. I can imagine filling it up with urethane foam and glueing the piece back in. Any suggestions are more than welcom.

Cheers,

--Axel
 
M

Member 41673

How to skin a Reliance

Hi Axel -

I've had several areas where the balsa coring became wet & soft. Not the least of which was my entire cockpit floor. It's also happened on deck & on the cabin-top. I hate balsa coring!

In all cases, I carefully tapped around the area with a small hammer & marked the extent of the "odd" sound. Then (& you're going to hate this part) I took a hand-held circular saw, set the depth to about 1/4" & cut around the "bad" part. Then, chisel, pry & pull the skin up. minimize the damage to the "skin" because you can (& should) re-use it.

If you have nice dry hot conditions you may get lucky & the balsa may dry-out on it's own over a few days - Try this before continuing. It's surprizing how the "mushy" balsa returns to life when it drys. I had to scoop-out the bad balsa. It was really gross & smelled like it was fermenting. I hate balsa coring! Make sure everything is dry before proceeding. Cut-back the skin more & remove more balsa if reqd.

Next, build it back up. I used plywood for the new coring. Build it up back up using layers of plywood & saturated glass to get it to the correct height. Make sure the top couple layers of you build-up are saturated glass & then put the skin back down on top of the wet glass. Have some bricks or something to hold the skin down while the epoxy cures. It'll be a helluva mess so it helps to have several people to wipe-up all the inevitable epoxy mess. After it all cures, grind & glass the seam. If you don't re-glass the seam I garuntee you'll see it again.

Piece of cake! Or, if you're not confident with your glassing skills, hire a pro.

Good Luck

Rick
 
Dec 1, 2008
13
Reliance 44 - Lelystad Haven, The Netherlands
Re: How to skin a Reliance

Hi Rick,
Instead of a circular saw I took out a dremel. It takes a little getting used to I guess... :-D

There was a small section of about 30x20 cm where the balsa was soft and spungy. Suprisingly, everywhere else was fine. It was just wet. I'll just wait a bit and see what happens. My only real concern is the diamond pattern. I have to figure a way to make that again. Kidding.

I'll have a look at our local resin store what they have in high density foams. That way I can maybe put the skin back in place and foam up the hollow space behind it.

Thanks for your help.
I will have a look at my rudder quadrant. I know it looks cast brass. Everything else is Edson I believe. The pully's are all home made.

Cheers!

--Axel
 
Jul 2, 2009
14
2 Reliance 44 Portsmouth
Running rigging leads and hard dodger?

Has anyone lead the main halyard and at least one reefing system aft to the cockpit? We have the ketch rig with the main mast forward of the coach house.

I am also looking for hard dodger pics - Rick, yours looks good - would you make any changes to it now that you have done some miles behind it? With the ketch rig, we're going to have to build it differently, but some concepts should carry over. Does anyone have a hard dodger on a R44 ketch?
 
M

Member 41673

Love my hard top

Hi -

We are circumnavigating aboard Voyager so we live under our hard top. It's the best mod we've made to Voyager. I can't think of anything I would do differently. It could stand to be a couple of inches higher, but then I'm afraid it would look too boxy.

What core material are you planning on using? I used plywood but it got to be way too heavy & I had to remove alot of material to lighten it up. Consider foam. it's easy to shape & light weight. Make-up for the lack of strength with several layers of fiberglass.

Are you planning on building a combing on the cabin-top to attach the hard top? I did & I could post pictures if you want to see. I installed real tempered glass windows & I'm glad I did. Look around, there are plenty of custom marine glass window manufacturers who can make any size/shape. At the same time I made my hard top I also replaced all my stancions & rail. I used this opportunity to integrate the aft rail into the support structure for the hard top. Again, I can post pics if you want.

If I can help any more you can e-mail me thru this web site.

Good Luck

Rick
 
Jul 2, 2009
14
2 Reliance 44 Portsmouth
Pics would be great!

Yes, any pics you can easily send would be much appreciated! This is a project that will not happen until this fall/winter, so there's no hurry. We are currently leaning toward a hard top with isen glass windows, the top would overhang, much as yours does. The hard top would have handles in the sides and aft and the isen glass would likely be in 3 pieces... Concerned about leaks, but we like the air flow from a zippered center window and curve would be nice to look at. Do you have any thoughts on this? Aft of the mizzen is still very much in design phase. Foam & glass are easily come by in Newport, it's the most likely material. We have a teak coaming already in place from the canvas dodger, we'll probably keep it.

Thanks! Green & Jen - LYRA//
Hi -

We are circumnavigating aboard Voyager so we live under our hard top. It's the best mod we've made to Voyager. I can't think of anything I would do differently. It could stand to be a couple of inches higher, but then I'm afraid it would look too boxy.

What core material are you planning on using? I used plywood but it got to be way too heavy & I had to remove alot of material to lighten it up. Consider foam. it's easy to shape & light weight. Make-up for the lack of strength with several layers of fiberglass.

Are you planning on building a combing on the cabin-top to attach the hard top? I did & I could post pictures if you want to see. I installed real tempered glass windows & I'm glad I did. Look around, there are plenty of custom marine glass window manufacturers who can make any size/shape. At the same time I made my hard top I also replaced all my stancions & rail. I used this opportunity to integrate the aft rail into the support structure for the hard top. Again, I can post pics if you want.

If I can help any more you can e-mail me thru this web site.

Good Luck

Rick
 
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