to the wind can I expect to get (in degrees) on a Pearson 28-2 shoal draft? I realize this is not the best point of sail for this boat, but what,s your best guess?
How close
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I sail with a friend
on his 1986 Pearson 28-2. It is a nice boat and sails quite well. He has a decent set of Dacron sails and a fairly good headsail sheeting arrangement, which could be improved by moving the cars further inboard -- probably not worth the effort if you don't race. In any event, I think the closest this boat can come to a 10-12 kt wind (closer the higher the wind)would be about 40 degrees. That is just an estimate and would vary with how each boat is rigged, sails, weather, waves, etc.
on his 1986 Pearson 28-2. It is a nice boat and sails quite well. He has a decent set of Dacron sails and a fairly good headsail sheeting arrangement, which could be improved by moving the cars further inboard -- probably not worth the effort if you don't race. In any event, I think the closest this boat can come to a 10-12 kt wind (closer the higher the wind)would be about 40 degrees. That is just an estimate and would vary with how each boat is rigged, sails, weather, waves, etc.
Shoal Draft =3'-6"
Having switched from shoal draft to deep draft many years ago, I'd be extremly surprised if the shoal draft version could do any better than 45 degrees. In higher wind and heeling further she'd be laying over and making much more leeway. You'd really need to check your tacking angle with a GPS. The compass headings may indicate 40 degrees but the leeway would kill you.
Having switched from shoal draft to deep draft many years ago, I'd be extremly surprised if the shoal draft version could do any better than 45 degrees. In higher wind and heeling further she'd be laying over and making much more leeway. You'd really need to check your tacking angle with a GPS. The compass headings may indicate 40 degrees but the leeway would kill you.
The question was
how close to the wind can you sail in a Pearson 28-2 shoal draft boat, not how much leeway one would make in so doing. All boats, including S. Sauer's, are going to make some leeway going upwind. Leeway and pointing ability are two very different things.
how close to the wind can you sail in a Pearson 28-2 shoal draft boat, not how much leeway one would make in so doing. All boats, including S. Sauer's, are going to make some leeway going upwind. Leeway and pointing ability are two very different things.
Pointing Ability
I don't disagree that all boats make leeway, but you appear to have been misinformed on the definition of pointing. If I may quote a passage from Adlard Coles book,'The Best of Sail Trim': "Remember though, that pointing ability is determined by the actual path of the boat through the water and not the angle of the boat relative to other boats around. If you pinch to close to the wind you may seem to be pointing high, but slower speeds and excessive leeway may produce poor windward performance." And as I said, he should check the tacking angle with a GPS .
I don't disagree that all boats make leeway, but you appear to have been misinformed on the definition of pointing. If I may quote a passage from Adlard Coles book,'The Best of Sail Trim': "Remember though, that pointing ability is determined by the actual path of the boat through the water and not the angle of the boat relative to other boats around. If you pinch to close to the wind you may seem to be pointing high, but slower speeds and excessive leeway may produce poor windward performance." And as I said, he should check the tacking angle with a GPS .
With the Oday 272 wing ... it really makes ...
a difference if the water is flat and the wind decent. Those pointing angles seem to be be different in different conditions ... what is a stall in one condition may be great in another. What I am saying is that theory and practice may not come too close to the real answer when you start adding in the variables. Other than that "rule" that wings are probably 5% worse than a decent keel. Vic "Seven"
a difference if the water is flat and the wind decent. Those pointing angles seem to be be different in different conditions ... what is a stall in one condition may be great in another. What I am saying is that theory and practice may not come too close to the real answer when you start adding in the variables. Other than that "rule" that wings are probably 5% worse than a decent keel. Vic "Seven"
speed is the key
In most cases (not all), one would want to go on the best vmg angle which isn't going to be a high point. Now some boats will have a higher point on the best vmg angle then others, but as long as you can keep a good speed (like 5 knots+) then most boats will not have that much drift. I remember on my old draw keel boat that speed was the key factor (draw board keel boats really have a lot of drift). On my shoal draft (5') wing keel boat, they say I'm supposed to have a strong drift but it doesn't seem that strong to me (example: no more then 20 yards drift sideways in a half mile). Now as long as you aren't restricted by objects, one will adjust the angle for the best VMG and that will definately give you enough speed that this isn't a problem. After all, if the water is going over the keel at a decent speed, it's going to have a good effect at keeping it going straight. Now sure, if you have more keel, you have more control. In this case, the keel is shorter but it is also longer to help offset the shortness, like mine wing keel has sideways area and lots of weight to help offset the shortness. Summary: In my honest opinion, if your not racing, you will never notice the difference. I don't. I even have tried to calculate the drift and it was so close to my exact angle that I had a hard time telling if I drifted or not (on 30 degree awa). So don't run away from a shoal keel boat because of pointing unless you are a racer. That extra one foot draft has come in handy here in the shallow waters of Galveston Bay. Now heeling is a different story...wing keel boats heel a lot before the weight is usefull.
In most cases (not all), one would want to go on the best vmg angle which isn't going to be a high point. Now some boats will have a higher point on the best vmg angle then others, but as long as you can keep a good speed (like 5 knots+) then most boats will not have that much drift. I remember on my old draw keel boat that speed was the key factor (draw board keel boats really have a lot of drift). On my shoal draft (5') wing keel boat, they say I'm supposed to have a strong drift but it doesn't seem that strong to me (example: no more then 20 yards drift sideways in a half mile). Now as long as you aren't restricted by objects, one will adjust the angle for the best VMG and that will definately give you enough speed that this isn't a problem. After all, if the water is going over the keel at a decent speed, it's going to have a good effect at keeping it going straight. Now sure, if you have more keel, you have more control. In this case, the keel is shorter but it is also longer to help offset the shortness, like mine wing keel has sideways area and lots of weight to help offset the shortness. Summary: In my honest opinion, if your not racing, you will never notice the difference. I don't. I even have tried to calculate the drift and it was so close to my exact angle that I had a hard time telling if I drifted or not (on 30 degree awa). So don't run away from a shoal keel boat because of pointing unless you are a racer. That extra one foot draft has come in handy here in the shallow waters of Galveston Bay. Now heeling is a different story...wing keel boats heel a lot before the weight is usefull.
Dear S. Sauer
The key words in your quote would seem to be: "if you pinch too close" (to the wind). I assume the original poster was a good enough sailor to not pinch too close and I hope that you are, too. And, in my post I never indicated anything about the angle of a boat to those nearby as a measure of anything. While your quote is interesting, it doesn't address the issue at hand. But perhaps most importantly, I have some real experience with how a Pearson 28-2 actually sails and points -- do you? If you have actually sailed one of these boats, and could not get it to point to its best ability, perhaps the problem was with the helmsman?
The key words in your quote would seem to be: "if you pinch too close" (to the wind). I assume the original poster was a good enough sailor to not pinch too close and I hope that you are, too. And, in my post I never indicated anything about the angle of a boat to those nearby as a measure of anything. While your quote is interesting, it doesn't address the issue at hand. But perhaps most importantly, I have some real experience with how a Pearson 28-2 actually sails and points -- do you? If you have actually sailed one of these boats, and could not get it to point to its best ability, perhaps the problem was with the helmsman?
Pete's right
the question is about pointing: how close can you sail to the wind? The answer is the closest angle your boat can make to the wind before luffing, not relative to how other nearby boats are doing. KISS.
the question is about pointing: how close can you sail to the wind? The answer is the closest angle your boat can make to the wind before luffing, not relative to how other nearby boats are doing. KISS.
I did 5 degrees once
on my Catalina 30. Course we where entering a creek without the engine and trying to not run aground at the time. The winds where 4-5 kts, waves flat, and we where making less than 1 knot over the ground but we where moving forward!
on my Catalina 30. Course we where entering a creek without the engine and trying to not run aground at the time. The winds where 4-5 kts, waves flat, and we where making less than 1 knot over the ground but we where moving forward!
I think
I didn,t ask the right question. I should have asked, how close to the wind can I get with reasonable speed. Its like Bill said, you can get within 5 deg if speed isn,t important. So how close can we get and carry 4.5-5kts with 10kts of wind? You guys made me think on this one. Ron
I didn,t ask the right question. I should have asked, how close to the wind can I get with reasonable speed. Its like Bill said, you can get within 5 deg if speed isn,t important. So how close can we get and carry 4.5-5kts with 10kts of wind? You guys made me think on this one. Ron
Ron...
I think you did ask the right question. But no one can sail a boat to within 5 deg of the wind without a lot of luffing. The implication of your question IMHO was how close to the wind can you point your P-28-2 with your sails not luffing and still having an efficient shape. My estimation of that, based on sailing a friend's p-28-2 is around 40-45 degrees, again depending on local conditions, what kind of and size sails your have, deck hardware, the condition of it's bottom and how your boat is sailed. These are nice cruiser/racers, with the emphasis on the former....
I think you did ask the right question. But no one can sail a boat to within 5 deg of the wind without a lot of luffing. The implication of your question IMHO was how close to the wind can you point your P-28-2 with your sails not luffing and still having an efficient shape. My estimation of that, based on sailing a friend's p-28-2 is around 40-45 degrees, again depending on local conditions, what kind of and size sails your have, deck hardware, the condition of it's bottom and how your boat is sailed. These are nice cruiser/racers, with the emphasis on the former....
Ron, on our previous H28 and our current P42,...
both shoal draft keels, I can maintain good way up to about 31 degrees under full sail. Beyond that (30, 29, 28 degrees, etc.) the boat begins to depower with each additional degree. I've used this technique when I see a strong puff approaching I will steer the boat to about 20 degrees to minimize heel. This helps to keep the boat on her feet, yet still maintain some way. The admiral really dislikes severe heeling angles (30 plus degrees). Of course for me that is where the fun begins. Terry
both shoal draft keels, I can maintain good way up to about 31 degrees under full sail. Beyond that (30, 29, 28 degrees, etc.) the boat begins to depower with each additional degree. I've used this technique when I see a strong puff approaching I will steer the boat to about 20 degrees to minimize heel. This helps to keep the boat on her feet, yet still maintain some way. The admiral really dislikes severe heeling angles (30 plus degrees). Of course for me that is where the fun begins. Terry
Heel
Terry: Another way to reduce heel in a strong puff is to simply drop the traveler down a bit (or a lot depending on the situation). What you are doing with that movement is changing the angle of attack. There are 4 elements of sail trim and they are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Anytime you make a sail trim adjustment those are the only elements you are changing. Once a sailor understnads those 4 elements he knows more about sail trim than 75% of the sailors worldwide. Anyway, when you drop the traveler in a strong puff the heel is reduced but more importantly you can almost maintain the same speed. Comng up causes you to lose speed and control. If it is just you and your wife and your wife is like mine and does not want to mess with the traveler - or any of the sail trim controls - you can do what I did and lead the traveler lines back to the helm and you can easily make the adjustment yourself. Next time your out sailing give my suggestion a try and see if it works for you.
Terry: Another way to reduce heel in a strong puff is to simply drop the traveler down a bit (or a lot depending on the situation). What you are doing with that movement is changing the angle of attack. There are 4 elements of sail trim and they are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Anytime you make a sail trim adjustment those are the only elements you are changing. Once a sailor understnads those 4 elements he knows more about sail trim than 75% of the sailors worldwide. Anyway, when you drop the traveler in a strong puff the heel is reduced but more importantly you can almost maintain the same speed. Comng up causes you to lose speed and control. If it is just you and your wife and your wife is like mine and does not want to mess with the traveler - or any of the sail trim controls - you can do what I did and lead the traveler lines back to the helm and you can easily make the adjustment yourself. Next time your out sailing give my suggestion a try and see if it works for you.
After having been the helm....
.... for so many years, this past year I tried a new position. Main trimmer and helm have to work in concert to make a most effective team. The helm will often call for the main trimmer to drop the traveler to reduce heel in a puff so he doesn't have to change heading. A good main trimmer will be able to anticipate the heel and make the adjustment just at the start of the puff obviating the need for the helm to ask. This dual relationship keeps the boat on her lines and at optimum speed. What Don is suggesting is to change the angle of attack of the sail by moving the traveler rather than the entire boat. Both accomplish the same thing but the traveler adjustment does not sacrifice speed and control.
.... for so many years, this past year I tried a new position. Main trimmer and helm have to work in concert to make a most effective team. The helm will often call for the main trimmer to drop the traveler to reduce heel in a puff so he doesn't have to change heading. A good main trimmer will be able to anticipate the heel and make the adjustment just at the start of the puff obviating the need for the helm to ask. This dual relationship keeps the boat on her lines and at optimum speed. What Don is suggesting is to change the angle of attack of the sail by moving the traveler rather than the entire boat. Both accomplish the same thing but the traveler adjustment does not sacrifice speed and control.
traveler not always correct answer
Depending on the gust, sometimes it's much easier to adjust the boat. If the gust is so much that one would also need to adjust the jib fairleads and sheets and one is not in a race, then feathering is an easier solution.
Depending on the gust, sometimes it's much easier to adjust the boat. If the gust is so much that one would also need to adjust the jib fairleads and sheets and one is not in a race, then feathering is an easier solution.
Of course...
...there are always other things that you can do. You can turn down wind and sail a different course if you aren't racing. But this discussion was dealing with the best method of beating and keeping the boat in trim while handling gusts. Don's point about feathering the boat into the wind was that performance and control are lost with that method and he was suggesting a better alternative. The jib trim is handled by jib trimmers and would be done by them in conjunction with the main. But the main contributes the major heeling force to the boat in a puff and simply lowering the traveler maintains control and speed in one easy move.
...there are always other things that you can do. You can turn down wind and sail a different course if you aren't racing. But this discussion was dealing with the best method of beating and keeping the boat in trim while handling gusts. Don's point about feathering the boat into the wind was that performance and control are lost with that method and he was suggesting a better alternative. The jib trim is handled by jib trimmers and would be done by them in conjunction with the main. But the main contributes the major heeling force to the boat in a puff and simply lowering the traveler maintains control and speed in one easy move.
But what about...
...if I'm sailing closehauled because I'm trying to clear a point of land (or a race mark, etc) without having to throw in two more tacks, won't heading up in the gusts increase my chances and save me some time and distance? Isn't that worth a try? ...RickM...
...if I'm sailing closehauled because I'm trying to clear a point of land (or a race mark, etc) without having to throw in two more tacks, won't heading up in the gusts increase my chances and save me some time and distance? Isn't that worth a try? ...RickM...
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