I sailed with working jib and main with one reef. Was expecting afternoon wind to pick up. Wind remained 5-8 knots. My 23foot Hunter only pointed 60-65 degrees to windward. Is this to be expected? What conditions of boat and sail trim can contribute to poor pointing?
- Status
Pull main to windward...
I'm not familiar with the 23 and can't tell from the pictures in the boat info section if it has a traveler. That would help get the main to windward for closer pointing. On a small boat you can pull the mainsheet to windward by hand or jury rig a boomvang or similar device without the track and blocks a traveler usually employs. For the jib, your 100% working jib can probably lead to blocks on the cabin top, inside the shrouds for better pointing angle. A larger genoa head sail will have to lead to blocks on or near the rail so the sail can clear the shrouds. In light air the reduced pointing ability of the larger sail led to the rail is offset by the speed that the larger sail provides. If you have a track or multiple lead points; close hauled, you want to move the genoa leads forward, and bring them aft for downwind sailing. Fair winds, Tom
I'm not familiar with the 23 and can't tell from the pictures in the boat info section if it has a traveler. That would help get the main to windward for closer pointing. On a small boat you can pull the mainsheet to windward by hand or jury rig a boomvang or similar device without the track and blocks a traveler usually employs. For the jib, your 100% working jib can probably lead to blocks on the cabin top, inside the shrouds for better pointing angle. A larger genoa head sail will have to lead to blocks on or near the rail so the sail can clear the shrouds. In light air the reduced pointing ability of the larger sail led to the rail is offset by the speed that the larger sail provides. If you have a track or multiple lead points; close hauled, you want to move the genoa leads forward, and bring them aft for downwind sailing. Fair winds, Tom
The slot effect - windage =
Hi Joanna, My small, 25ft Hunter, didn't go to weather that well either but 65 degrees is pretty bad. 1) you need not be reefed in 10knots of wind. 2) when reefed it is tough to get a good sail shape from the main, unless it furls into the mast etc. you really need to get into your reef points, make an 'earring' and use a cunningham or something to get a good shape. 3) Work n good 'slot effect' using the jib to accelerate wind across the luff of the main. Yarn colored tell-tales are good for this prupose. Youreally need to play with it for good results. 4) The Hunter is a roomy little sloop, at least mine was, with a fairly high cabin top for that size vessle and there are sacrifices...*soap. 5) Weight, windage, current, swell and lotta many variables to your area and boat, is your bottom clean, any extra drag doen there? Gotta put on a mask & look. Pull your outboard up, a lotta little things, but a full main and 100% jib should give 50 degrees...;-)
Hi Joanna, My small, 25ft Hunter, didn't go to weather that well either but 65 degrees is pretty bad. 1) you need not be reefed in 10knots of wind. 2) when reefed it is tough to get a good sail shape from the main, unless it furls into the mast etc. you really need to get into your reef points, make an 'earring' and use a cunningham or something to get a good shape. 3) Work n good 'slot effect' using the jib to accelerate wind across the luff of the main. Yarn colored tell-tales are good for this prupose. Youreally need to play with it for good results. 4) The Hunter is a roomy little sloop, at least mine was, with a fairly high cabin top for that size vessle and there are sacrifices...*soap. 5) Weight, windage, current, swell and lotta many variables to your area and boat, is your bottom clean, any extra drag doen there? Gotta put on a mask & look. Pull your outboard up, a lotta little things, but a full main and 100% jib should give 50 degrees...;-)
The main thing on the 23
is to get the traveller across to windward, effectively pushing the sail further into the wind. Peter Suah is the resident expert on the 23 and I have learned much from reading his posts...Peter?
is to get the traveller across to windward, effectively pushing the sail further into the wind. Peter Suah is the resident expert on the 23 and I have learned much from reading his posts...Peter?
Light winds and pointing
It is much harder to point in light winds than in stronger ones. Apparent wind is the wind you sail in. As the boat picks up speed the apparent wind direction will move forward and stimy your pointing. If the winds are near your boat speed the effect is greater than if the winds are much faster than boat speed. Chapmans Piloting has a great article on this.
It is much harder to point in light winds than in stronger ones. Apparent wind is the wind you sail in. As the boat picks up speed the apparent wind direction will move forward and stimy your pointing. If the winds are near your boat speed the effect is greater than if the winds are much faster than boat speed. Chapmans Piloting has a great article on this.
Improving windward performance on the H23
Hi Joanna: Many factors affect the windward ability of our beloved H23's. First the bad news: 1) The wing keel is great for shallow water sailing and for trailering but not for pointing. Truth is, you need a deep keel to point high. 2) Wing keels doesn't work well at low speed. 3) The stock spreaders are so wide that the headsail comes up against the spreader tip before it is sheeted in all the way. Now the GOOD news: 1) The easiest way to compensate for the less than stellar upwind performance on a STOCK H23 (more on this in a bit) is to sail 50 to 55 degrees off the wind instead of trying to force the boat up to 45 degrees. Those 5 or 10 degrees make the boat a lot faster, so much so that it can make up the extra distance sailed. 2) This boat likes to be sailed fast, and the faster it goes, the better the wing keel works. Improved boatspeed starts with better sail trim, but reducing drag also helps. Note that the hull, keel, rudder, rig and sails all contribute to drag. 3) The spreaders can be shortened but I think that's a pretty drastic step unless you're really into racing. Mine are still stock. 4) Work on your sail trim. Too many cruisers think proper sail trim is only for racers. You should know how to recognize the various wind and sea conditions in which you normally sail and be able to adjust sail trim as needed to keep the boat up to speed, under control and sailing comfortably. Here are a couple of useful links (don't be put off by the racing references): Don Guilette's sail trim guide: http://shop.hunterowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&cart=1152605715144486&sku=100&cat=1321 North U. Sail Trim coursebook and quick trim guide: http://www.northu.com/nu/NU_catalog.taf?_function=list&category=21 Recent post on weather helm and mainsail trim: http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pviewall.tpl?fno=5&uid=F&sku=2006184131528.86&rid=2006191181608.74#2006185213903.79 Happy studying and sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Hi Joanna: Many factors affect the windward ability of our beloved H23's. First the bad news: 1) The wing keel is great for shallow water sailing and for trailering but not for pointing. Truth is, you need a deep keel to point high. 2) Wing keels doesn't work well at low speed. 3) The stock spreaders are so wide that the headsail comes up against the spreader tip before it is sheeted in all the way. Now the GOOD news: 1) The easiest way to compensate for the less than stellar upwind performance on a STOCK H23 (more on this in a bit) is to sail 50 to 55 degrees off the wind instead of trying to force the boat up to 45 degrees. Those 5 or 10 degrees make the boat a lot faster, so much so that it can make up the extra distance sailed. 2) This boat likes to be sailed fast, and the faster it goes, the better the wing keel works. Improved boatspeed starts with better sail trim, but reducing drag also helps. Note that the hull, keel, rudder, rig and sails all contribute to drag. 3) The spreaders can be shortened but I think that's a pretty drastic step unless you're really into racing. Mine are still stock. 4) Work on your sail trim. Too many cruisers think proper sail trim is only for racers. You should know how to recognize the various wind and sea conditions in which you normally sail and be able to adjust sail trim as needed to keep the boat up to speed, under control and sailing comfortably. Here are a couple of useful links (don't be put off by the racing references): Don Guilette's sail trim guide: http://shop.hunterowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&cart=1152605715144486&sku=100&cat=1321 North U. Sail Trim coursebook and quick trim guide: http://www.northu.com/nu/NU_catalog.taf?_function=list&category=21 Recent post on weather helm and mainsail trim: http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pviewall.tpl?fno=5&uid=F&sku=2006184131528.86&rid=2006191181608.74#2006185213903.79 Happy studying and sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Can it be..?
The mast rake? My own Tiger points 45 degrees easily, and will lay even closer than than in a moderate breeze, and honestly, since you mentioned it, I forgot this boat is supposed to have poor upwind performance because I really havn't noticed it. Am I an anomoly? ??
The mast rake? My own Tiger points 45 degrees easily, and will lay even closer than than in a moderate breeze, and honestly, since you mentioned it, I forgot this boat is supposed to have poor upwind performance because I really havn't noticed it. Am I an anomoly? ??
As Peter points out...
a lot of factors affect pointing ability. My 23 points very well, if the sails are adjusted properly to the wind conditions. Better in moderate wind than in light. I suspect that in the light airs you weren't getting enough "push" from your reefed main. As Peter suggests play with your sail trim and watch the effect it has on the boat, it's fun, plus you learn alot about your boat. Dave h23 "Wind Dreamer"
a lot of factors affect pointing ability. My 23 points very well, if the sails are adjusted properly to the wind conditions. Better in moderate wind than in light. I suspect that in the light airs you weren't getting enough "push" from your reefed main. As Peter suggests play with your sail trim and watch the effect it has on the boat, it's fun, plus you learn alot about your boat. Dave h23 "Wind Dreamer"
My 87 was pointing very well yesterday
As my handle suggests, I'm pretty new to all this, but, I have to disagree with the idea that the 23 with a wing keel doesn't point very well. Yesterday afternoon I was sailing upriver on the Columbia from I-5 to I-205(river goes east to west)and the wind was from the North-NW so I was sailing a broad to beam reach most of the time, tacking very little. On the way back downriver, the wind shifted to directly West and I was able to point within 40 degrees and got a lot of momentum with about 15-20 degrees of heel. I didn't have to tack but once, and just for a short time, on a 4 mile stretch, so that should indicate that what I'm saying is true. My main was pretty much centerboard and my headsail was the standard 100 with the sheets led outside the shrouds and run under a genoa track set to stern and very taut. My telltales were flying perfectly straight back off the main and inside the jib, so I figure I had the trim pretty close for a newbie. What do you old-timers think? I was having the best day sailing EVER!!
As my handle suggests, I'm pretty new to all this, but, I have to disagree with the idea that the 23 with a wing keel doesn't point very well. Yesterday afternoon I was sailing upriver on the Columbia from I-5 to I-205(river goes east to west)and the wind was from the North-NW so I was sailing a broad to beam reach most of the time, tacking very little. On the way back downriver, the wind shifted to directly West and I was able to point within 40 degrees and got a lot of momentum with about 15-20 degrees of heel. I didn't have to tack but once, and just for a short time, on a 4 mile stretch, so that should indicate that what I'm saying is true. My main was pretty much centerboard and my headsail was the standard 100 with the sheets led outside the shrouds and run under a genoa track set to stern and very taut. My telltales were flying perfectly straight back off the main and inside the jib, so I figure I had the trim pretty close for a newbie. What do you old-timers think? I was having the best day sailing EVER!!
Aha!
Sounds like you had your sail trim right on the money. Isn't it a great feeling when that happens? Peter H23 "Raven"
Sounds like you had your sail trim right on the money. Isn't it a great feeling when that happens? Peter H23 "Raven"
Darn tootin!
Yes, it was quite a thrill! Which brings up another question: I have a thru hull spinner for speed measurement (Navman 4100SX), and the knotmeter was registering 11 headed down river. Since the theoretical hull speed is 7-8 knots, can this reading be correct? Also, Peter, I really appreciate your tips on sail trim. This past Sunday I finally got the hang, somewhat, of when and how to spill wind to reduce heeling and maintain control. Normally, if things got too hairy, I'd just turn back into the wind, and maybe even drop my headsail. Now I feel much more confident and the Admiral and I were high-fiving each other, we were so pumped! This is a great forum for learning from the old salts and fellow newbies!
Yes, it was quite a thrill! Which brings up another question: I have a thru hull spinner for speed measurement (Navman 4100SX), and the knotmeter was registering 11 headed down river. Since the theoretical hull speed is 7-8 knots, can this reading be correct? Also, Peter, I really appreciate your tips on sail trim. This past Sunday I finally got the hang, somewhat, of when and how to spill wind to reduce heeling and maintain control. Normally, if things got too hairy, I'd just turn back into the wind, and maybe even drop my headsail. Now I feel much more confident and the Admiral and I were high-fiving each other, we were so pumped! This is a great forum for learning from the old salts and fellow newbies!
Neo...
It sounds like your knotmeter may need to be recalibrated. Measure the time it takes to motor at constant speed (as shown on the display) on a straight course between two points a known distance apart. Use a chart or GPS. Divide that distance (in nautical miles) by the elapsed time converted to hours and compare with the readout on your knotmeter. The panel should have an adjustment somewhere. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
It sounds like your knotmeter may need to be recalibrated. Measure the time it takes to motor at constant speed (as shown on the display) on a straight course between two points a known distance apart. Use a chart or GPS. Divide that distance (in nautical miles) by the elapsed time converted to hours and compare with the readout on your knotmeter. The panel should have an adjustment somewhere. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
- Status