Horizon Yacht Charters deja vu

[Blue Pearl Captain]

Caveat emptor, dear reader. Be aware.
With the contract signed and accepted by all parties five months ago, the charter fee paid in full, airline tickets bought, SCUBA plans confirmed, provisions ordered for delivery, and fully packed my wife, daughter, and I were excited to leave for BVI in five days.
We had chartered a Bavaria 46 Vision with Horizon BVI for spring break, over Easter week, and looked forward to boarding on Saturday.
Horizon BVI Manager Henry called yesterday, "I'm afraid I have some bad news. Because you slandered Horizon on "BeneteauOwners.com", my Directors have cancelled your contract.
There is a broker who has secured a boat through another company but at an additional $2,000.00 cost to you."
What slander, Henry, I asked? Did he mean my post on this discussion board in August, 2013 where I gave an account of our harrowing FUBAR 10 day charter of a Jeanneau 50 DS through the Grenadines with Horizon Grenada, in July that year?
Did he mean the 13 page post-charter report of nearly 60 deficiencies (ranging from small to critical) which rendered Horizon's boat un-seaworthy during the trip, imperiling the lives of my family?
I sent that report to Horizon in August, 2013. I explicitly said I was concerned for your company's liability exposure and risk management as well as for the safety of future crew and property associated with Horizon Grenada charters.
I clearly identified myself to Horizon 5 months ago. I gave them a second chance. They executed the contract within two days and even honored a 10% return discount coupon. There was not a question about my instructor status or about my 50 year global sailing history and experience.
All was well until Horizon Yacht Charters chose to initiate a small minded, punitive, and retaliatory decision called "failure to perform".
Henry said the action was covered by a "failure to deliver" clause but that's not in the contract. The boat owner was paid 90 days ago. The boat is in its slip and will remain there next week.
Life goes on, live and learn. There will certainly be no consideration of Horizon Yacht Charters in our future.
Take your chances, dear reader, and best of luck. I don't think this experience reflects the overall standards of professionalism of the charter industry in '15.
I certainly hope not.
Incidentally the charter company of my 2016 Tahiti charter didn't blink when I told them about 2013 out of True Blue Bay. Maybe they had heard it all before.

 

[Jackdaw]

I just read your 'report'.

If I get this straight, you have a 'bad experience' with a charter company, decided to 'name and shame' them on the internet, and expect them to TAKE YOU BACK?? Sorry, but the world, the internet and social media don't work that way. You presented a one-sided story and named people involved on a public internet forum.

Secondly, I'm curious why you want to go back with them?

I also have to tell you, the moment you blamed them for not warning you about 'bad weather' your credibility went to almost zero. Eight days into the trip an impeller shreds? A Shackle fails in breeze? Sounds like sailing.

 

[Blue Pearl Captain]

I just read your 'report'.

If I get this straight, you have a 'bad experience' with a charter company, decided to 'name and shame' them on the internet, and expect them to TAKE YOU BACK?? Sorry, but the world, the internet and social media don't work that way. You presented a one-sided story and named people involved on a public internet forum.

Secondly, I'm curious why you want to go back with them?

I also have to tell you, the moment you blamed them for not warning you about 'bad weather' your credibility went to almost zero. Eight days into the trip an impeller shreds? A Shackle fails in breeze? Sounds like sailing.

Either you have never sailed the Grenadines or you have never sailed the Grenadines, Jackdaw.
I certainly don't recall you being on that trip with us, though, so I'd appreciate you giving fair consideration.
As I mentioned, they didn't just "take me back". We negotiated a signed contract. I believe in giving people second chances but perhaps the value of that concept is lost on you.
You have no call to impune my integrity, Jackdaw. Try to get a weather report from Tobago Cay some time when your only established link to civilization fails.
I also suspect your credentials pale in comparison. The idea of providing feedback about situations like these is in your interest as a charter skipper.
If we do not fairly report situations publically, how will people know to pay close attention to their responsibilities?
The charter industry has more than their share of blemishes which they need to pay attention to. Just read about them. It's a matter of risk management and liability protection.
"A shackle fails in a breeze"? The absurdity of your shallowness and failure to grasp the severity of a topping lift wrapping the main in a gale, due to an incorrect shackle reveals a certain lack of experience on your part, sonny.
What do you replace your boat parts with.? Elmers and coat hangers?
Please.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a Beneteau 48 Oceanis waiting for me. I need to get back to business.

 

[capejt]

I tend to agree with Jackdaw on this one. As a former charter captain, I've seen plenty of things wrong with boats. On one occasion, the linkage to the tranny came undone. This required the "admiral" to man the lever on the tranny during docking maneuvers. It must have seemed to those on the dock that I had some kind of voice activated gear shift. I'd yell forward, and the boat would move forward, I'd yell reverse, and the boat would slow and stop. Most of the time these things are nothing more than a minor nuisance. Charterers need to remember that they are "renting" highly used boats. Think of like renting a highly used car. Not all the bells and whistles are going to be trouble free forever.
I also agree with the point about the weather. As a captain of the chartered boat it is YOUR responsibility to keep abreast of weather and sea conditions since YOU are responsible for the boat and the safety of the crew.
As for the impeller and the shackle....sh*t happens! As Jackdaw said, that's sailing. In my racing days there was a saying that if you returned at the end of the day of racing without something to repair, you weren't sailing hard enough.
As a former charter maintenance mechanic, remember that there is usually a small (handful at best) number of people trying to make sure that an entire fleet of boats are in tip top shape. Things tend to fall through the cracks from time to time. If it's nothing major, deal with it. If it is major, the charter company should be made aware of it, and should fix it ASAP.
I also agree with the thought "why would you want to go back if you had a bad experience before?"
Some people sail to get away and relax, some people live to complain about anything wrong. Believe me I've dealt with both in my years at sea. The relaxers always seem to have a better time.

 

[Blue Pearl Captain]

I tend to agree with Jackdaw on this one. As a former charter captain, I've seen plenty of things wrong with boats. On one occasion, the linkage to the tranny came undone. This required the "admiral" to man the lever on the tranny during docking maneuvers. It must have seemed to those on the dock that I had some kind of voice activated gear shift. I'd yell forward, and the boat would move forward, I'd yell reverse, and the boat would slow and stop. Most of the time these things are nothing more than a minor nuisance. Charterers need to remember that they are "renting" highly used boats. Think of like renting a highly used car. Not all the bells and whistles are going to be trouble free forever.
I also agree with the point about the weather. As a captain of the chartered boat it is YOUR responsibility to keep abreast of weather and sea conditions since YOU are responsible for the boat and the safety of the crew.
As for the impeller and the shackle....sh*t happens! As Jackdaw said, that's sailing. In my racing days there was a saying that if you returned at the end of the day of racing without something to repair, you weren't sailing hard enough.
As a former charter maintenance mechanic, remember that there is usually a small (handful at best) number of people trying to make sure that an entire fleet of boats are in tip top shape. Things tend to fall through the cracks from time to time. If it's nothing major, deal with it. If it is major, the charter company should be made aware of it, and should fix it ASAP.
I also agree with the thought "why would you want to go back if you had a bad experience before?"
Some people sail to get away and relax, some people live to complain about anything wrong. Believe me I've dealt with both in my years at sea. The relaxers always seem to have a better time.

Points well taken.
I suppose I should have tracked weather reports from multiple government tracking sources for longer than three weeks. I really must do better and when told "We'll call you in advance of severe changes" I should probably disregard that, too. Radar would have helped. VHF is useless since no one monitors it reliably.
As for True Blue? Upon our return, there were two other boats there which could not go out or had to turn around. One was chartered by a USCG licensed Captain and Instructor who had 6 students aboard. I suppose he was just a complainer. The heat exchange intake had barnicles as far up as he could probe but, of course, he was probably just looking for something to complain about, too. He had to issue a full refund to his students for the trip and arrange their early return stateside.
Nothing to complain about there.
The other vessel had parts taken off other models which failed, costing that family of complainers 3 out of 7 days. They never made it even close to Carriacou.
I should mention that overheating alarm failed, not that I should have expected that since maintenance records proved inconsistent with verbal representation.
I forgot to complain about that before. I would have saved the impeller, perhaps, since there was no spare where it was supposed to have been. Even the Horizon crew "thought" it was there. It was there "the last time we checked".
It all sounds to me like you are unfamiliar with the Grenadines, too. When you are 40,50, 60 nm. from home port, you can't just drop by for major repairs.
My point is that the charter industry has an ethical responsibility to deliver safe and seaworthy vessels. Period.
It's a consumer driven market, capejt. Until we, as consumers, demonstrate oversight and heightened expectations, regrettable experiences are a given.
As a local captain told me on Union Island, "We have three or four chartered yachts a year wracked up on the reefs. They go unreported because it's not good for business."
There must be shared responsibility. Don't you think?
Lives are worth that much.

 

[Jackdaw]

Either you have never sailed the Grenadines or you have never sailed the Grenadines, Jackdaw.
I certainly don't recall you being on that trip with us, though, so I'd appreciate you giving fair consideration.
As I mentioned, they didn't just "take me back". We negotiated a signed contract. I believe in giving people second chances but perhaps the value of that concept is lost on you.
You have no call to impune my integrity, Jackdaw. Try to get a weather report from Tobago Cay some time when your only established link to civilization fails.
I also suspect your credentials pale in comparison. The idea of providing feedback about situations like these is in your interest as a charter skipper.
If we do not fairly report situations publically, how will people know to pay close attention to their responsibilities?
The charter industry has more than their share of blemishes which they need to pay attention to. Just read about them. It's a matter of risk management and liability protection.
"A shackle fails in a breeze"? The absurdity of your shallowness and failure to grasp the severity of a topping lift wrapping the main in a gale, due to an incorrect shackle reveals a certain lack of experience on your part, sonny.
What do you replace your boat parts with.? Elmers and coat hangers?
Please.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a Beneteau 48 Oceanis waiting for me. I need to get back to business.

I really don't have to explain my sailing credentials, I don't need validation from you. But I will tell you, when I'm skippering a boat (mine or charter) I take full responsibility for what happens after we leave dock. Full. Its all on me. And further to that point, I would never call anyone who came to keep my sorry butt off the bricks 'Huey, Dewey, and Louie' on-line. I would have thanked them profusely and bought them a 12-pack.

You had an issue with a charter company, and chose to resolve it by naming people and calling them names on the internet. You being right or wrong no longer matters. You can't cross burnt bridges. Get over it. I suggest privately this time.

 

[markwbird]

Charter companies have a responsibility

As a non-captain who has chartered many times I can say that my experiences have been mostly good. The idea that everything that happens is entirely the captain's responsibility is unreasonable. He cannot know the full condition of the boat. It is the charter company's responsibility to make sure the boat is good to go. Maybe that is a tall order but that is the business they're in. If the charter company offers reassurances that they will monitor the weather and inform of any weather issues than you should be able to take them at their word. I am not a licensed captain but I am not required to be. Some sailing experience and common sense are the only prerequisites. Also, I have no problem with someone calling out a charter company for a bad experience as long as they are telling the truth. The charter company's vindictive response was unprofessional but not surprising. Of course, if you want top of the line professional service and new boats you're going to pay for it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

As Jackdaw said, that's sailing. In my racing days there was a saying that if you returned at the end of the day of racing without something to repair, you weren't sailing hard enough.

My friend once told me: "The reason we sail the boat so much is that we get to know what we have to fix next!"

I am kinda astounded that you used the same company again. The "give them another try" when you spent ALL THAT TIME writing up 13 page reports and internet reports just boggles my mind. That's the part that was crazy.

You are absolutely right that the charter industry could do way better in boat maintenance. Especially in areas like the one you were in for open water sailing as compared to the relatively protected BVIs for example.

Full time cruisers deal with these issues every single day.

But we have never rented from a "Top Tier" charter company (i.e., Moorings) because of our personal budget. In 1986, on our first charter, the engine wouldn't start off St. John's. We VHF'd the base (before cell phone days), sailed closer after pulling up the chain by hand on a 32 foot Endeavor (!!!), and they brought out new batteries. On that trip the Xmas winds came up and we were "stuck" in Leinster Bay for two days. OMG. We had a ball.

Weather? It was windy. We looked out the portholes. Didn't need three weeks of forecasting to figure that one out by ourselves. We listened to the "regular" radio AND the VHF and noticed that there was no one sailing on Drakes channel, even the ferries were stay-at-home for two days!!!

You depended on ONE source of weather information? One only? That's unreasonable.

On another BVI trip a 32 foot CS36 (like Maine Sail's great boat) wouldn't start two days in a row. They asked us if we could sail back closer to base. I said: "Look out your window." "Oh, yeah, no wind, we'll come right up to you by 3 p.m. BTW, would you mind if we gave you a replacement 50 foot Beneteau?" Turned out to be a lovely two weeks on a HUGE boat for just the three of us.

I coulda complained, and written them up, and Yelped all over the place. Wouldn't have made any difference to them. Getting my blood pressure up was not my idea of a good vacation. Or remembering the good times.

Other charters, all 10 or more of 'em, in the BVIs, Bahamas and Europe, ALL had something go wrong. We fixed it, or had it fixed, and carried on.

This is a long, and I hope thoughtful, reply to your issues by sharing examples I have had.

Behavior modification is not something best done on the internet, but from the other respondents to this topic, it seems that your high anxiety is something you might want to work on.

As well as choosing another charter company.

Good, no better, luck next time.

Sorry you got burned financially and vacation-wise.

 

[Jackdaw]

As a non-captain who has chartered many times I can say that my experiences have been mostly good. The idea that everything that happens is entirely the captain's responsibility is unreasonable. He cannot know the full condition of the boat. It is the charter company's responsibility to make sure the boat is good to go. Maybe that is a tall order but that is the business they're in. If the charter company offers reassurances that they will monitor the weather and inform of any weather issues than you should be able to take them at their word. I am not a licensed captain but I am not required to be. Some sailing experience and common sense are the only prerequisites. Also, I have no problem with someone calling out a charter company for a bad experience as long as they are telling the truth. The charter company's vindictive response was unprofessional but not surprising. Of course, if you want top of the line professional service and new boats you're going to pay for it.

Mark,

I agree with you.

My point is that AFTER LEAVING THE DOCK, the skipper's job is to deal with what happens. That's the same if its your boat or a charter. If you notice it before you leave, point it out and have them deal with it. If it breaks while you are sailing, deal with it.

I agree that the companies decision to cancel his charter was iffy. I assume that if the owner had seen who it was when the booking was taken he would have refused it. That would have been better. From my point of view he was protecting his employees. He send a RIB out to keep a sailboat from drifting into a lee shore safe. That's dangerous business. And the person responsible for that boat at the time called them 'Huey, Duey and Lewey' on the internet as thanks, I would have done the same if they have been my guys.

 

[Blue Pearl Captain]

My friend once told me: "The reason we sail the boat so much is that we get to know what we have to fix next!"

I am kinda astounded that you used the same company again. The "give them another try" when you spent ALL THAT TIME writing up 13 page reports and internet reports just boggles my mind. That's the part that was crazy.

You are absolutely right that the charter industry could do way better in boat maintenance. Especially in areas like the one you were in for open water sailing as compared to the relatively protected BVIs for example.

Full time cruisers deal with these issues every single day.

But we have never rented from a "Top Tier" charter company (i.e., Moorings) because of our personal budget. In 1986, on our first charter, the engine wouldn't start off St. John's. We VHF'd the base (before cell phone days), sailed closer after pulling up the chain by hand on a 32 foot Endeavor (!!!), and they brought out new batteries. On that trip the Xmas winds came up and we were "stuck" in Leinster Bay for two days. OMG. We had a ball.

Weather? It was windy. We looked out the portholes. Didn't need three weeks of forecasting to figure that one out by ourselves. We listened to the "regular" radio AND the VHF and noticed that there was no one sailing on Drakes channel, even the ferries were stay-at-home for two days!!!

You depended on ONE source of weather information? One only? That's unreasonable.

On another BVI trip a 32 foot CS36 (like Maine Sail's great boat) wouldn't start two days in a row. They asked us if we could sail back closer to base. I said: "Look out your window." "Oh, yeah, no wind, we'll come right up to you by 3 p.m. BTW, would you mind if we gave you a replacement 50 foot Beneteau?" Turned out to be a lovely two weeks on a HUGE boat for just the three of us.

I coulda complained, and written them up, and Yelped all over the place. Wouldn't have made any difference to them. Getting my blood pressure up was not my idea of a good vacation. Or remembering the good times.

Other charters, all 10 or more of 'em, in the BVIs, Bahamas and Europe, ALL had something go wrong. We fixed it, or had it fixed, and carried on.

This is a long, and I hope thoughtful, reply to your issues by sharing examples I have had.

Behavior modification is not something best done on the internet, but from the other respondents to this topic, it seems that your high anxiety is something you might want to work on.

As well as choosing another charter company.

Good, no better, luck next time.

Sorry you got burned financially and vacation-wise.

All is well. Another company stepped in and provided a 20% discount for the Oceanis. They also established new inroads with my broker to represent them.
See, when the contract was cancelled, he lost his commission. What a class operation, eh?
As I mentioned, there are no reliable sources for weather reports in the Grenadines, especially when cells develop as they do. Our last advisory was 3 days into the charter. No adverse weather patterns were forecast for 72 hours.
4 1/2 days later we just threaded the needle between squalls (Force 7) for 36 hours and made the last 36 miles fully reefed and with a preventer. It was wonderful sailing at 12-14 knots down the backsides of 15 ft waves. Made Grenada in just under 4 hours.
Have you ever tried it? It's exhilarating.
Thanks for your input. Smooth sailing your way.
As an Emergency/Trauma doctor, I can assure you there is no anxiety. It's business.

 

[Blue Pearl Captain]

Mark,

I agree with you.

My point is that AFTER LEAVING THE DOCK, the skipper's job is to deal with what happens. That's the same if its your boat or a charter. If you notice it before you leave, point it out and have them deal with it. If it breaks while you are sailing, deal with it.

I agree that the companies decision to cancel his charter was iffy. I assume that if the owner had seen who it was when the booking was taken he would have refused it. That would have been better. From my point of view he was protecting his employees. He send a RIB out to keep a sailboat from drifting into a lee shore safe. That's dangerous business. And the person responsible for that boat at the time called them 'Huey, Duey and Lewey' on the internet as thanks, I would have done the same if they have been my guys.

Sorry to disappoint you again. These are franchises and I clearly identified myself. I explained that above. That was understood 5 months ago.
When Huey, Louis, and Dewey came aboard, there was no damage to the motor or bow thruster. I advised them against starting the motor but they did anyway. I advised them on sailing a distressed vessel in 30 knt winds and with 9 knt currents. We made it back, eventually, but it was they who nearly put us on the shoals. I was in blue water when they joined the party. At the dock, I also advised them not to use the bow thruster with the painter in the water at the bow. When they did, it sucked up that painter like a straw sucks up pea, destroying the thruster.
I wonder if you can imagine who they were going to hold liable, jackdaw?

 

[Blue Pearl Captain]

As a non-captain who has chartered many times I can say that my experiences have been mostly good. The idea that everything that happens is entirely the captain's responsibility is unreasonable. He cannot know the full condition of the boat. It is the charter company's responsibility to make sure the boat is good to go. Maybe that is a tall order but that is the business they're in. If the charter company offers reassurances that they will monitor the weather and inform of any weather issues than you should be able to take them at their word. I am not a licensed captain but I am not required to be. Some sailing experience and common sense are the only prerequisites. Also, I have no problem with someone calling out a charter company for a bad experience as long as they are telling the truth. The charter company's vindictive response was unprofessional but not surprising. Of course, if you want top of the line professional service and new boats you're going to pay for it.

Thank you for providing level-headed insight, markwbird.

 

[Jackdaw]

Sorry to disappoint you again. These are franchises and I clearly identified myself. I explained that above. That was understood 5 months ago.
When Huey, Louis, and Dewey came aboard, there was no damage to the motor or bow thruster. I advised them against starting the motor but they did anyway. I advised them on sailing a distressed vessel in 30 knt winds and with 9 knt currents. We made it back, eventually, but it was they who nearly put us on the shoals. I was in blue water when they joined the party. At the dock, I also advised them not to use the bow thruster with the painter in the water at the bow. When they did, it sucked up that painter like a straw sucks up pea, destroying the thruster.
I wonder if you can imagine who they were going to hold liable, jackdaw?

I'm not going to get drawn into your name calling. I'm just commenting on what you have written. You DID write this, correct??

One hour from True Blue Bay home port, while furling all sails before yet another squall, smoke billowed from the companionway and quarter birth side ports, and 60 feet of topping lift whipped overhead (cheap shackle).
The impeller was trashed, the motor's exhaust was destroyed, there had been no engine overheating alarms/panel lights.
We were adrift in the water in high winds and rough seas, hove to 1000 yds from Pt. Saline shoals

YOU were the skipper. This is on you; you put the boat there and in peril. Property and lives at risk. Can't get yourself out of a jam. So you called the company. They came. To rescue you. Apparently they did.

If I'm a towtruck guy and I come to pull an SUV out of the ditch, I'm pretty much going to ignore the 'suggestions' made by the guy who drove it into the weeds in the first place.

It takes a fair amount of brass to rag on the very people that came to save your butt.

 

[Blue Pearl Captain]

I'm not going to get drawn into your name calling. I'm just commenting on what you have written. You DID write this, correct??



YOU were the skipper. This is on you; you put the boat there in peril. Property and lives at risk. Can't get yourself out of a jam. So you called the company. They came. To rescue you. Apparently they did.

If I'm a towtruck guy and I come to pull an SUV out of the ditch, I'm pretty much going to ignore the 'suggestions' made by the guy who drove it into the weeds in the first place.

Of course I wrote that post. Do you know another Blue Pearl Captain, former Force Recon Corpsman, and retired Naval Special Operations doctor?
After backing the genoa and maneuvering broadside to the current we drifted beyond Salinas. The Grenadian Racing Team, as they claimed to be, put us in a current on starboard tack with a sail plan that caused the boat to experience serious leehelm 200 yards from Salinas's shoals. At that point, I informed them that a full genoa was overpowering the rudder. Reefing the genoa corrected the matter so we could come about away from the shoals.
I didn't actually call for assistance, jackdaw. I thought a courtesy call to let base know about the situation and inform them I was going to be late was in order. My plan was to ride out the squall and sail in without power. It was they who chose the heroics.
We were fine. I thought my 13 year old first mate daughter was doing one heck of a job!
You sure do have a considerable amount of anger here, jackdaw. What's that about?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Thank you for providing level-headed insight, markwbird.

I infer 'level-headed' means he agreed with you. Others don't, myself included.

Horizon has never been nor claimed to be anything other than a second-tier discount charter company with boats which all have seen 'better days'. That you don't seem willing to acknowledge some responsibility here doesn't help your case.

 

[justsomeguy]

I infer 'level-headed' means he agreed with you. Others don't, myself included.

-snip

Why would you need to "infer"? Did you read markwbird's post?

 

[Jackdaw]

Of course I wrote that post. Do you know another Blue Pearl Captain, former Force Recon Corpsman, and retired Naval Special Operations doctor?
After backing the genoa and maneuvering broadside to the current we drifted beyond Salinas. The Grenadian Racing Team, as they claimed to be, put us in a current on starboard tack with a sail plan that caused the boat to experience serious leehelm 200 yards from Salinas's shoals. At that point, I informed them that a full genoa was overpowering the rudder. Reefing the genoa corrected the matter so we could come about away from the shoals.
I didn't actually call for assistance, jackdaw. I thought a courtesy call to let base know about the situation and inform them I was going to be late was in order. My plan was to ride out the squall and sail in without power. It was they who chose the heroics.
We were fine. I thought my 13 year old first mate daughter was doing one heck of a job!
You sure do have a considerable amount of anger here, jackdaw. What's that about?

Do you honestly think that any part of your background impresses me? Really?? Why do you put that there? You can leave your resume off, none of that makes you a better sailor.

I'm basing what I wrote on what you posted. As far as I can tell, you sound like you were not willing to accept your part of the responsibilities. And make no mistake, that boat was YOUR responsibility. And when it got sticky with the management, you thought it best to air your dirty laundry here. That's classless in my book.

You miss-read me. I'm not angry. I'm just not buying it. You might get sympathy elsewhere, but not much here, and certainly not from me.

 

[justsomeguy]

Our company ethos is simple- to offer immaculate yachts, first class customer service and great value for the money.

I suppose "immaculate" may only mean "clean" here.

 

[Phil Herring]

This thread really should go in the round file but to tell you the truth, I'm rather enjoying it.

 

[Blue Pearl Captain]

I suppose "immaculate" may only mean "clean" here.

Well said, justsomeguy. Fair winds your way.