Hope for the next generation of sailors?

Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
@Scott T-Bird

Anyway, I'm way off into hot water here so I will shut up and end my contribution to this topic.

Fair winds and go sailing,
One of the reasons why I love to come to this forum is that there are frequently these little sparks that get ignited! How can we see without light? A little flame is always a welcome addition, in my perspective. I find that the discussions among my friends in here are often enlightening without becoming incendiary. This isn't a common forum, where attacks are too often childish.
 
Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
Wow talk about thread drift! I know I was gone for a day but I never anticipated this turning into a debate on college funding nor an attack on "those Millennials" (because I am one!). I was merely wanting to discuss how the current model of sailing will be changing. I agree with those that say young people will buy older boats and with those that don't want to demean the skills of millennials or any generation. However I am wondering how the current sailing model will shift. Sailboat builders need customers and customers are generally older wanting larger boats. This means that a lot of smaller entry level boats can be had on the used market and can be fixed up. However does this open up opportunity for builders in an aftermarket type setup? Catalina Direct handles all parts for my boat and has quite a few kits / upgrades as well. There may be an opportunity there for others as well.

Really what I was asking is will the way we use boats be changing forever. Most don't want the ongoing marina costs associated with keeping the boat in the water but also don't like the trailering troubles with having them at home. This may change how marinas and others function. Perhaps marinas will have more rentals / charters or have "clubs" that enable you to use a boat when on vacation like the original video. Some clubs will continue to thrive mostly due to their location and financial resources. There is a great club with a fantastic sailing program in Wayzata that @Jackdaw is a part of that is doing some great things. There are also clubs and programs like that around the country also thriving with young people. However these are the minority not the majority. A lot of that has to do with their affluent senior members and ability to finance things smaller clubs or clubs not near major cities just can't do and these are the majority of "yacht" clubs in the US.
I was just looking to discuss how these programs would change and how it might change the way we look at boats. I am an older millennial and I see my boat as mine. I take pride in maintain it, sailing it, racing it (occasionally) and teaching others to sail but I am a minority. Most of my peers see boats as something to be used for the joy of using it. They see no appeal in spending hours polishing, sanding , or even practicing to get that last half knot out of the boat. They like the adventure but when it is over well, its onto the next thing until next time. Obviously this mentality will be different in different parts of the country but where I am at in the upper midwest I have noticed this as well as in Southern California where I grew up.

I have enjoyed this conversation and the different perspectives of many here on this subject but before this thread descends into a why we hate Millennials or young people are crushing the indstruy of sailing I think I will bow out. I guess its time for my sailing brain to hibernate anyway as today may be my last 40 deg day for the year. Have a good winter sailors!
 

DougM

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Jul 24, 2005
2,242
Beneteau 323 Manistee, MI
I got really interested in sailing when I was in my teens, and did not grow up in a boating family.
I didn’t get my own boat, a used MC scow, until I was 35.
Both of my sons grew up in the local sailing club. One became more interested in other outdoor activities, the other is still an avid sailer. The sailing son actually became a junior sailing instructor, went on to college and basically resurrected the sailing program there with help from his friends. A fair number of those early sailing students still sail.
I had to wait til I was older to get involved because I made “too much” money for my sons to get financial assistance for college. They were fortunate in that they were able to get through without loans by working and a little help from the bank of mom and dad. As the result I got my first “big boat” when I was 58.
The reasons why the sons don’t sail much now has to do with their job commitments (tied to their work by iphones 24/7), and geography. There isn’t much sailing opportunity in Phoenix.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
@Scott T-Bird

I'm not talking about taking out dept as a way to hide the cost. The discount rate is something else. It is scholarships given to student to seduce them into coming to the school. Not everyone gets the same scholarship offer and sometimes the formula is not based on objective metrics but rather on desired demographics. But I digress.

Many small private colleges jack up the tuition really high and then give out huge scholarships in order to make the students feel special. The hope is that a student will think they are getting a better deal since they are getting a scholarship. It is just B.S. but the bottom line is the common cited number in the media of $40K does not exist at any private college once you factor in scholarships (discounting). Yes! there are a few who are paying $40K but on average the cost is closer to $28K (all in -- tuition, fees, room and board).
No, I understand how the scholarships work, and it is not an issue with just one side. I certainly do appreciate that scholarships really are a benefit to deserving students. I also know that scholarships are used to lure the best students that they can find. Seemingly, that is all positive. But, the fact remains that the full retail price certainly does exist for many students, I can testify. To hear it stated so plainly that your children are indeed paying for the education of others should be infuriating and the concept should be commonly known and discussed before laying the money out. Perhaps a different choice would be more attractive.

Endowments are another complicated subject. Do the Ivy League schools really need to be as wealthy as they are? The amounts endowed are staggering, and for the benefit or whom? … the future lords of the universe? OTOH, industrialist Henry Rowan gave a staggering $100 Million to tiny Glassboro State College in New Jersey, now called Rowan University. At the time, it was one of the largest endowments ever given to a school. The money was used to stimulate the expansion of engineering and medical studies for middle class students. It was a huge positive for the community. I was in the car on a trip with my son while he was listening to a podcast about the topic of endowments. They were making the point that a huge amount of money is thrown at the people whom least need it, while there are colleges and universities where endowments can be extremely beneficial to the middle class (but they are least likely to enjoy the largesse).
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
From a boats perspective, a mid 60's Pearson 26, this was 2012. It's getting readied for spring launch by a group of young adults. They were enjoying a few beers in the cockpit after doing some work on it. I suspect it had some value at this point, 6 years ago, there wasn't the supply we have in 2018. A good design for our coast, it will get you home (questionable in some 26'ers).


It has changed hands since (in fact, all these boats in the photo have changed hands), and was sailed extensively by young people. Since, it has fallen into disrepair from lack of use.

Somewhere between 2012 and now, it has passed the 0 value point. It's become a liability for somebody. It's sails were destroyed in a gale.
Rockport Landing.jpg millennials .jpg

Makes me realize, what will be needed from the old boat perspective, are sources or entities that will re-purpose things like old but usable sails, outboards, half used cans of bottom paint.
 
Nov 1, 2017
635
Catalina 25 Sea Star Base Galveston, TX
@LakeShark ,
As a 19 year old kid, I can tell you that the interest of our generation in sailing is very VERY small. I speak to lots of people around my age every day, and I bring up sailing often; the response I get is usually a shocked face and a "WHOA, DUDE, you're a sailor?!" I believe that the reason for the lack of interest from today's generation is caused simply by laziness. A typical "millennial" would purchase a sailboat and maybe be ecstatic about owning it for a short time, but when they find out how much time and effort a sailboat requires, they'll most likely get rid of it and abandon it for a Jet Ski. I also firmly believe that the future of sailors lies in Sea Scouts, B.S.A.. This program is designed and dedicated to bringing our newer generation into the world of seamanship, and almost every Sea Scout I know, young and old, has fallen madly in love with sailing. The majority of young sailors I have spoken to at my marina in Kemah tell me they were involved in Sea Scouts at one time, or have been to a seamanship program offered by the B.S.A..
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
This is a really really complicated issue that defies simple pat answers. Long-term generational and societal issues are at play.

At WYC/WCSC we have a recipe for success, but it is localized and based on the conditions and situations we see here. Our circumstances define what we had to do to make it work, and that's what we did. This weekend we are actually tearing down the 100-year old building that used to house the WCSC and building a brand new multi-million dollar structure (already fully PAID for) to replace it. They needed it, their programs serve over 1000 young people each summer.

For my eyes, most people now look for simplicity in the things that that do. Maybe one thing can be complex, but for everything else, simple. Here in MN 'boat clubs' are all the rage. Pay say $2000/year and you can reserve a brand new boat on 10 major lakes. Walk up at the appointed time and it gassed up, with dock hands ready to help you in and out. Bring it back dirty and empty. Repeat next week. Only powerboats, that that the draw in MN.

Beneteau noticed. On a national scale in France, spreading fast. Power and Sail. All Beneteaus. These people are not stupid.

 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
If it works, people will vote for it with their wallets! It's pretty simple, really … the only tricky part is finding out what works! :what: Sailing will never disappear. Like somebody said, the allure of it can be found in the countless ways we sublimely notice it. Sailing fast and competitively, sailing slow for pure leisure and the essence of freedom and being self-reliant. It appeals. The demographics will always be there. The access will always need to adapt to fit the times and circumstances.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
access will ..... adapt to fit the times and circumstances
I modified your statement. It evolutionary in nature. Supply/Demand. The natural order of things. Access to sailing will also adapt. Currently the idea of clubs and participation for a fee is the rage.

When I decided to go bigger, I explored such options.

What I view as a cultural difference, economical valuing vs experience valuing lead me to buy a boat of lesser value that I could shape to my own desires and not just expend monies for the experience via renting.
Purchasing a boat and adding to it is not an exercise in economic return on investment. Like autos or in some cases worse the economic value of a boat declines. But it does not necessarily go to zero. I have to neglect the boat for that to happen. On the other side a rental by definition goes to zero in value after the experience/expenditure. Additionally there is expense in getting certification to be able to rent.

For each the equation would have personal variables that impact the potential outcome. My sense is that the current young generation 25-40 year olds want the experience and are to a greater extent rent it biased. Less concerned about the economics involved in ownership and even less interested in having the need to maintain a boat.

Look at the housing model - rental/condos, the car model - emphasis on leases. These give the ability for having the experience with out the weight of ownership.

Added to this trend is the many options in activities. I just spent the morning at a “Top Golf” range. Very trendy way to experience hitting a golf ball with none of the trappings of a golf course. Costs a bit more than my municipal. No walking required. You can lounge on a couch and sip your beer and eat pub food while your friend wacks a couple of balls out into the electronic range which tells you if you hit the a target or not like a video game. (Long gone is the gong or 50 gallon drum target). Then it’s your turn and you don’t even need to bring clubs, they provide them and suggest which one to use (color coded) based on the possibility to hit the ball to the color coded target.

Will sailing survive? Yes. Will we be using boats with automatic sail and foils? Possibly But as long as there are oceans there will be sailors patching together old wooden boats to go out and capture the wind. After all there is Mystic Seaport and Port Townsend on the two coasts where wooden boat skills are still being shared.
 
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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Here's a typical kid (at the helm) on a shared boat from a local Boat Club. While his parents aren't sailors (but member of the boat club), he grew up sailing in local sailing classes typical of any coastal area. Once in college, he taught summer sailing classes here.

There are thousands of these kids (I'm sure), around our coasts with similar backgrounds.

He sailed into this mooring as if he owned this boat even though I think it was the first time he sailed it. The sheet is in the water but I blame that on his Dad (a friend).
Brooks on Rocky.jpg



About the boat: Most any New England sailor would recognize this is a Cape Dory Typhoon. 19' long, this little boat bucks the trend of many older boats.

A 50+ year old design, nearly 2,000 were built, and I've yet to see one that isn't sought after and worth something, no matter how neglected. In fact it may be more popular than many larger Cape Dory's (no offense intended, I owned a CD 28, great boats).

Fun to sail no matter your level of skill, nice cockpit for a family, pleasing to look at.

One reason I think the Typhoon endures is that it's better designed and built - especially in it's functional elements - than most peer boats of the group.

For instance, the cockpit hatches (it's stored next to my boat), have deep drain gutters, thick strong lay up and massive bronze hardware (Spartan) that looks little used after 50 years. Many boats of this size (and much larger) will be in rough condition in these areas, and much sooner.

Build quality will probably send more old glass boats to the landfill than lack of sailors wanting to own them.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Here's another millennial boat in our harbor.

Hold on... The owner is 15, too young to be a millennial! He didn't buy it, his Dad did. A Jeanneau Fun 23. This is a sister ship I took off the web.



His Dad bought the Fun 23 at the local Y auction for $500. Every year, a few dozen coastal cruisers are auctioned off bargain prices. Amazingly, the Fun 23 came with everything including a trailer. As his Dad works in the marine industry (he services moorings and charters a tour boat), it will be cheap to keep.

A mid 80's boat in great shape, the price he paid is the reality of it's value today. Yikes!

The 15 yr. old can sail the Fun 23 like he was born on it(his Dad is a great sailor as well).
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
So, where would those concerned for the future of sailing, like to see it go?

Is making sailing more mainstream important?
Is producing more new daysailers, cheaper big boats, simpler starter boats, more comfortable cruisers, more accessible high performance boats, a desired goal? Maybe working towards reducing the cost of ownership at the marina and yard is the goal. Is there an interest in improving education and skill in sailors? Changing the image, getting more public recognition of the sport or making people considerate of sailing as a legitimate contemporary pursuit is a goal.

Would it be good to change some of the rules, regulations or laws around sailing? Maybe you would like to see more or less organizations or institutional involvement, colleges and schools, government, yacht clubs or Y programs?

Where do we set our course for, Cap'n?

-Will (Dragonfly)
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
So, where would those concerned for the future of sailing, like to see it go?

Is making sailing more mainstream important?
Is producing more new daysailers, cheaper big boats, simpler starter boats, more comfortable cruisers, more accessible high performance boats, a desired goal? Maybe working towards reducing the cost of ownership at the marina and yard is the goal. Is there an interest in improving education and skill in sailors? Changing the image, getting more public recognition of the sport or making people considerate of sailing as a legitimate contemporary pursuit is a goal.

Would it be good to change some of the rules, regulations or laws around sailing? Maybe you would like to see more or less organizations or institutional involvement, colleges and schools, government, yacht clubs or Y programs?

Where do we set our course for, Cap'n?

-Will (Dragonfly)
I'd say, you can stop worrying about the future of sailing, it's future has been cast long ago.
Nutshell MJ Abby2.jpg

We're making sailors every day, as we always have.
Kids on the bow.  (1 of 1).jpg
A common sight (at least in New England), is multiple generations sailing, racing, on the water.
CCK 343 off the stern kids.jpg

Kids hike, grandparents sit.
CCKs approach sailing windward kids.jpg

It's not about the boats, these old Knockabouts are racing in Hadley Harbor. One design, new or decades old, will always be the pinnacle of the sport.
CC enjoying the race on deck.jpg

Sailing's base will always be multi-generational and therefore, perpetual.
Kids on foredeck.jpg

My advice for the sailing industry (and I don't expect it to hear), would be a return to the roots of sail: A means of travel by wind power alone. There in lies the root of the making of a sailor. There has never been a more opportune moment to re-introduce this ancient magic.
 
Oct 10, 2011
619
Tartan 34C Toms River, New Jersey
I think the art of sailing will remain the same. As new sailors appear the old will fade away. I doubt it will grow in popularity but remain constant. Men/Women have always been drawn to the sea and I suspect it will always stay that way.
That said I think I will go out for breakfast now and maybe have a Bloody Mary, and if I am up to it go to the boat for maybe the last sail of the season. Cheers everyone.:)
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,401
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
My daughter paid most of her college bills, I paid some, and she has a some debt. She worked and she didn't spend money. Just like I did. Pretty simple, just not easy.

My other obsessions are rock and ice climbing. I wouldn't want to defend those as logical either. People should do as they like, and as much as I like sailing, there are other things I've enjoyed just as much. So I really don't care if the next generation sails, just so long as they don't play video games.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Nothing like real sailing yet.
VR is still working on getting the wind to blow through your hair, The scent of the sea in your nose and the splash of the wave. But the developer says they are really close.