Honda 2000 watt Generator questions?

[FourPoints]

So, the inverter IS the generator OUTPUT, and still can't be used with on board inverter to attempt to reduce the load on the generator to start an air conditioning unit.

According to George, aka Thatboatguy over at seafaring / lats and atts, the 2000 also has a separate 5 or 10a 12v dc battery charging output that is produced by a separate coil and can be tied to the regular output for a few extra amps... Ill try to find the link to where he talks about it and post it.

edit - found the link
http://www.seafaring.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=225742#p225742

 

[Benny17441]

I hooked up a 5000 btu window unit to an inverter and a group 24 deep cycle battery. It ran for around 15 minutes before the inverter signaled low voltage and turned itself off. Most batteries cannot handle the steep rate of discharge.

 

[Spcharby]

According to George, aka Thatboatguy over at seafaring / lats and atts, the 2000 also has a separate 5 or 10a 12v dc battery charging output that is produced by a separate coil and can be tied to the regular output for a few extra amps... Ill try to find the link to where he talks about it and post it.

edit - found the link
http://www.seafaring.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=225742#p225742

I read the thread, lots of good stuff there, thanks. Someone mentioned an 8 foot power cable - anyone know where I can get one of those?

There was a question in that thread about running the H2000i while underway, concerns about oil cavitation. I would imagine that the oil low level sensor would shut down the unit if there was an issue. A response to that question indicated that they run it for hours while underway without issue. Cool stuff!

Steve

 

[Stu Jackson]

According to George, aka Thatboatguy over at seafaring / lats and atts, the 2000 also has a separate 5 or 10a 12v dc battery charging output that is produced by a separate coil and can be tied to the regular output for a few extra amps... Ill try to find the link to where he talks about it and post it.

edit - found the link
http://www.seafaring.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=225742#p225742

Thanks for that link, Brian.

For those who don't click on links, here's what it said:
Post: Keep in mind those Honda generators have 12V output specifically for charging batteries. I'm sure this is much more efficient than using the AC output and going through the on board charger. You do have to buy the special 12V cable, but it's pretty cheap.


Reply: The 12v supplies only about 8amps nominal (something less than that in actual operation). But (and it's a big butt) the 12v dc output is being created by a separate coil and does not take away from the max output of the generator. So even when you have the generators a/c side maxed out, you can still grab a few extra amps from the dc side for charging.

This can be nice in practice because when we use the water heater I can still get 20 amps of charging out of the smart charger without tripping the overload on the honda, then add that extra 6 amps or so from the dc side and we get over 25 amps of charging and hot water!

I have worked out that we get our 11 gallons of hot water in about 12 minutes and I know exactly how much fuel (not much) to put into the honda to get the job done. I use an outboard motor squeeze bulb to transfer the gas and count the pumps.

First, as I understand it, that 12V DC output is useless for charging batteries, so the first "post" statement in that link is incorrect, whether it takes away from the A.C. output or not. It is definitely NOT more efficient to use only 12 V for direct battery charging than it is to use the A.C. output through a battery charger, which can provide up to 14.4V and a three stage charge regimen, just as if connected to shorepower, which is the whole purpose of a generator to begin with.

It could, however, be used as a "boost" to the generator supplying charging through the charger if the 12V DC was "sent" directly to the batteries. Quite frankly, I haven't heard of this approach being taken by the many skippers I know who have these Honda units.

That said, two other things happen:

1. One receives, as stated, a just a tad few more DC amps into the house bank when using the TWO outputs from the Honda: a) the 120V C. side of the charger which makes 12 V DC to the house bank; and b) direct 12 V DC from the second generator output direct to the house bank.

If this adds that few more amps for making hot water with an eU1000i, that's a nice idea I'd never heard of before. That power to make the hot water STILL has to come through an INVERTER, 'cuz the hw heater is A.C. powered.

2. It STILL does not address the question of whether this unit (1000) or a 2000 can provide enough power to run an air conditioning unit off a house bank through an inverter.

Also, as I understand it, the "companion" eU2000i is the one that doesn't have the 12V DC output, but two 30A A.C. outputs, and many folks have bought the "companion model for this reason, 'cuz they recognize that the 12V DC output is relatively useless. At least until this "idea" surfaced.

Again, perhaps, we're missing something key to the operations proposed with the generator. I'll go back and read that whole linked thread, but these are my preliminary evaluation comments. Any insight you can provide would me most helpful.

Thanks,

Stu

PS - correction on what a "companion" model is is down below in another post.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Paralleling a 12 volt charger (kinda doubt that it is only 12 volts though) to a 14.4 volt charger only results in the 12 volt charger having current flow backward through it. If the 12 volt charger is properly dioded then all it does is sit there and do nothing.
Which is probably why nobody has any luck boosting their system in this fashion.

 

[FourPoints]

2. It STILL does not address the question of whether this unit (1000) or a 2000 can provide enough power to run an air conditioning unit off a house bank through an inverter.

It sort of does, some people are able to run the ac off the generator output by using a large capacitor to give an extra boost to the start... By taking the 12v output direct to the batteries for an extra 8 amps, you are definitely going to be able to cover the running load, and even have a little left over to charge the batteries or run something else (fridge or freezer?). You may still need to add the capacitor though to cover the start load.

As i understand it, the intended purpose of the 12v output is to enable battery charging while the generator is powering other things. Some enterprising people are using that to boost the output to be able to run hot water heaters and the like without draining their house bank, so there is no reason it cannot be done for an Ac unit.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Brian, I'm still confused, sorry about that. But aren't we mixing apples and oranges here? 12v is DC power. It has to go to the batteries. The "inverter" in the Honda generator, which I previously quoted, is making 120 V A.C. This is going either to the shorepower charger which is charging the house bank, or is being used for direct A.C. current to the A.C. power on the boat, for, say, the hw heater.

So please explain the wiring, I just don't get it.

If the shorepower inlet is being used (i.e., it is ON) by the Honda, then the ship's inverter can't be used at the same time, since the Honda is just like being plugged in at the dock with shorepower, so the ship's inverter can't be used at the same time.

Also, the capacitor goes on the air conditioning unit for a softer start. Completely separate thing.

And, as the quote you used from my last post said, "using the power from the INVERTER" which was the original question, that inverter being the one on the boat which is making A.C. power from the house bank, and is NOT the "inverter" on the Honda generator. The original questions waas: can I run my air conditioning unit through the ship's inverter? The answer is: even if you get it started, you'd need a monstrous house bank to run it even for an hour.

That's still the reality.

If all this is doing is putting more amps into the house bank, then running an air conditioner off the ship's inverter is still questionable, as Benny and others have pointed out.

Thanks.

 

[Stu Jackson]

In addition, John Salley's #16 and my #17, in a linked post John describs the "companion" model quite well:

I actually have the Honda EU2000i Companion model, which is identical to the regular EU2000i except it has a 30 amp twist lock connector in place of one of the usual 20 amp blade connectors, so I can use my 30 amp shorepower cord from the generator to the inlet. You can also simply use an adapter and a heavy duty extension cord with the regular EU2000i.

That adapter would be one from the 20A 120 V A.C. outlet of the generator to the 30 A 120V shorepower inlet on your boat. Some folks make up shorter 30A power cords to use from their generators to their shorepower inlets, others use their 25 or 50 foot cords.

It appears that both the regular and the companion models have the 12V DC output.

 

[FourPoints]

Stu - I don't know about your setup, but many people I know are able to run the ships inverter from the house bank even when on shore power. It just depends on how things are wired on your boat, and also if you have a combined inverter / shore power charger unit or not.

Maybe I was misunderstanding the question, I thought they wanted to run the air conditioning from the ships interver when away from shore power. They had tried running it directly from the generator, but it would trip the overload circuit. Some people had said they ran theirs directly from the generator with use of a capacitor to help absorb the start load.

The suggestion that George made on the L&A board (to run his HW heater, which I think is ac powered via his ships inverter, but I may be mistaken there) was to run the generator into the shore power input, and run the 12v charger output (it's probably about 14.4v since it is supposed to be a chargeing output) directly into the batteries, and power the AC (or HWH) from the ships inverter. This allows the batteries to supply the start load, so no capacitor is needed, and between the generator output and the DC output the honda 2000 is actually able to supply more power than the AC is drawing, and ends up even putting a little into the batteries once it is running.

Of course that setup means multiple AC to DC to AC conversions, and some loss will be associated with each, but You could also just power things directly from the house bank. You would be putting in 8A from the DC output as well as the max 20A output through the generator side, for a realistic input of about 25-27A (after AC/DC conversions / shore power loss etc) to the battery bank, which should be more than enough to run the AC on the boat without draining the house bank.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Brian, I'm starting to understand. But...

You wrote: ...and run the 12v charger output (it's probably about 14.4v since it is supposed to be a charging output)...

As far as I know, and from the Honda website: http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/...tion=P2GG&modelname=EU2000i&modelid=EU2000IKN

The 12 V outlet is just that, 12V DC. I have read a lot of discussions about these units over the years, and nowhere have I read that this is a charging source. In fact, many folks have incorrectly thought this and wondered why it took forever to charge their batteries before they realized that the "right" way to do it was to use the 120 V A.C. outlet and plug it into their shorepower outlets and use their chargers. And they asked this very question on many different boating forums.

Even if you have an inverter that is spearate from the main boat A.C. "house" wiring, and may be connected to ONLY the air conditioning unit, you simply cannot mix the two A.C. sources to or at one piece of equipment. An inverter A.C. source and a generator A.C. source will NOT "play well together."

You're right about the original question, which is why I keep going back to it. The generator can't run the 16K air conditioner. If the inverter is that big to be able to do so, then as many folks, like Koudie1, have pointed out, there's gottas be one huge house bank to do so, which it seems the OP doesn't have, so we don't understand how it works.

That's all I'm trying to do: understand how it works. I get the capacitor thing which is mounted on the air conditioner for a soft start, regardless of the source of A.C. power - generator or inverter I don't get the inverter combined with the generator idea at all.

Also: but many people I know are able to run the ships inverter from the house bank even when on shore power. It just depends on how things are wired on your boat, and also if you have a combined inverter / shore power charger unit or not.

I understand, but why would anyone want to do this? If shorepower was available, why use the inverter? It would seem to require separate circuits within the boat to do this, right? If the generator took the place of shorepower, then no matter what source of A.C. power was available, generator or shorepower the two could NOT mix anywhere without blowing the inverter.

Also: You would be putting in 8A from the DC output as well as the max 20A output through the generator side, for a realistic input of about 25-27A (after AC/DC conversions / shore power loss etc) to the battery bank, which should be more than enough to run the AC on the boat without draining the house bank. ...and between the generator output and the DC output the honda 2000 is actually able to supply more power than the AC is drawing, and ends up even putting a little into the batteries once it is running.

OK, so generator works to send A.C. power to the shorepower charger to charge the batteries, PLUS the 12V DC goes directly to the batteries and that means that the inverter HAS to be operating the air conditioner. Right?

So now we need to do the math again: 25 -27 amps IN to the house bank, 40 A coming OUT to run the air conditioner off the inverter. 15A down for every hour of air conditioner run time. 15 ah per hour - yeah, just like knots per hour!

That's a losing proposition if I ever heard one, and just puts off the inevitable drain on the house bank. Add a fridge and you're doin' 20A draw on the house bank. Whew.

Am I close?

BTW, the specs on the eU2000i are 2000 w 16.7 A max, 1600 w, 13.3 A - which is normal long term run output. Which simply makes the math I did above even WORSE.

I would really appreciate it if someone who has done this can chime in and explain how this works, 'cuz I'm just not gettin' it from suppositions and speculation.

Brian, I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just tryin' to understand how it works, and, so far, it's not clear to me at all.

Thanks again, for stayin' with me on this.

Stu

 

[FourPoints]

I would really appreciate it if someone who has done this can chime in and explain how this works, 'cuz I'm just not gettin' it from suppositions and speculation.

Brian, I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just tryin' to understand how it works, and, so far, it's not clear to me at all.

Thanks again, for stayin' with me on this.

Stu

As I don't have one of these generators, and don't have any first hand knowledge on this situation, I"m just trying to understand and apply what I've read from others first hand accounts. I asked George to hop over here and chime in on this subject as he's the one with the experience doing this.

as for the 40A draw, admittadly I assumed the AC draw was in the 20A relm, otherwise why would someone even try to power it from a 20A rated generator? If the AC is drawing anywhere close to 40A, then clearly there is no chance of running it without a net loss from the batteries.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks, Brian. Looking forward to hearing from George.

 

[Spcharby]

I installed it and it worked!

I installed the Supco SPP6 (which took all of two minutes) onto the existing capacitor of the AC unit (16K BTU Marvair), fired up the generator and it worked. The only issue is that the generator didn't have the grunt to get the unit started in the ECO mode. So I turned off the ECO mode and once the compressor kicked in, I turned on the ECO mode and no issues. What is really great is that this little generator can also help out this fall to power our outlets and keep the electric blankets going!!!

So - many thanks to everyone on the forum who helped me along. I definitely would not have given it an attempt without the advise.

I will post photos at a later date when I get them organized.

Steve
S/V Belle
H36 # 207
Hampton, VA

 

[shipwreck66]

Currently, I have a Group 31 battery isolated from the house batteries to run all the 110 plugs through an inverter, this came about accidentally while setting up for the parade of lights one Christmas a couple years back as my wife detests carrying my noisy generator. We will soon find out how many additional batteries I need.

 

[canuck]

Honda Eu2000i

FYI, I purchased my 2000 at Mayberry in New Jersey for $877 which included free shipping!

 

[Spcharby]

FYI, I purchased my 2000 at Mayberry in New Jersey for $877 which included free shipping!

Amazing price! I did see one one eBay for $850, but I think that did not include shipping. I actually ended up getting the companion model with a cover for $1225 tax included. Likely more than I wanted to pay for it, but it was in the middle of a power outage following hurricane Irene, so.....

Steve