Honda 2000 generator

[Terry in Naples]

I sort of stole the last thread so decided to start this one. In my previous posting I said that 2 things were going on last week when I was out on the boat for 6 days. One the generator seemed to run rough ( had to add a little choke to get it to smooth out some) and two when I put it on the boat system (30 amp shorepower) it overloaded and kicked out. Then it ran about 15 minutes but still very rough. I quit trying for the day.. Next day I ran the TV off the (Honda charger/inverter) and then again tried the boat 30 amp system, Used appropriate cable etc) the generator quit and would not start. No circuit breaker tripped on unit or boat. This sysytem worked at home months before this trip. I ran the batteries up using the high power alternator on the diesel and was ok. Upon returning I plugged the boat into the shore power and the charger on the boat popped and would not give a charge. It is a promarimer 30/30 charger. (a step up from the 15 A that came with the boat from Catalina) Now the charger is sent in for replacement and the generator is in to the dealer to see "What happened" there. One or the other or both were not working properly/ideas?Terry

 

[abe]

Make sure the generator has oil in it too...

...if it doesnt it runs rough and stops.abe

 

[Bill Roosa]

Grounding

Not an expert on honda gensets but I suspect that they are designed for shore use. As such they would use the ground wire for a path to ground. Not a problem as all homes have a grounding rod connected to that ground circuit. On a boat however there may or may not be a connection between the keel/engine ground and the AC ground. Perhaps the honda is figuring this out and it's safety circuits are complaining. There is also always the possibility of demon infestation. Electrical demons are particularly hard to get rid of, especially the oriental ones. Try using the genset on another boat to "see if my boat is the problem" to give the demon a new home. Might not want the other boat owner to be in your club however.

 

[Ross]

Bill, on portable gen sets the machine frame is

"ground" and there is no connection to earth. Many if not most of these units are used where the commericial grid doesn't reach. Often they are left on the truck and power cords are extended to the work site.

 

[Terry in Naples]

marine Honda 2000

From where I was anchored I could see two other Honda 2000 generators in operation. I am not sure how many there are out there but they are very popular here on cruising sailboats. They are very quiet, 52 dbl. Thanks anyhow for all responders. I will know more next week.

 

[ruedi ross]

Another consideration is

Honda eu series and the yamaha small portables use a dc generator and an inverter to produce 120VAC. That is why they can throttle down in "eco throttle" mode and still produce 60 cycles per second of AC. In typical residential house and shore power the neutral side of the AC power is bonded to the ground and has no electrical potential to ground and the hot side will read 120 volts to ground. In the case of the inverter generators this is not the case. The inverter creates a sine wave that splits the two sides of the AC outlets. A voltmeter will read 60 volts between the common side to ground and 60 volts between the hot side and ground and 120 volts between the hot and common. This is why you CAN'T use it in a system that bonds the common and ground wires together at the main disconnect as house wiring does or it will fry the inverter. It says that in the instructions for the Hondas. This is also why it may also give you a reverse polarity warning at your AC panel. When hooking a generator/inverter to the boat simply connect the ground wire from the shore power connector to the ground of the plug in connector at the generator. You can ignore the reverse polarity warning light.

 

[Stu Jackson]

The Honda Manual's troubleshooting

guide is quite good. Includes: air filter, oil, spark arrestor, spark plug condition, spark plug gap, tightness of spark plug, and a few other items. Figure you've already checked all of those? Reudi's right about the Hondas, and I think he summarized a thread we've had here and on both the C34 and C36 'sites some time ago, thanks for the head-ups on those issues.

 

[Bill Roosa]

My point exactly Ross

The frame and the ground wire are one in the same (I'll bet). So the ground wire is the frame ground and is most likely not tied into the keel ground as most boats don't have the AC circuits grounded anywhere but through the shore power cord. I believe this is what the industry calls a floating ground (no pun intended). While doing an extended staff tour of duty I noticed several occasions of the generator operator not bothering to drive the grounding stake into the ground. They would typically just dig a 1" trench and lay the grounding stake in it then cover it with dirt. You would get wildly fluctuating voltages and shocks from just about everything attached to that generator. The Army gensets (produced by the lowest bidder you know) just kept on running as long as you didn't over current them . Commercial genset have a somewhat more sophisticated safety circuit and go TANGO UNIFORM when they don't see a 0 ohm ground circuit. Generators absolutely need a great 0 volts reference that can take the maximum current the generator/inverter can supply. This is a safety issue first and an operational one second. If your boat electrical setup has the AC ground isolated from the DC ground and you have a genset or inverter then you are asking to get the living bageegees shocked out of you or your crew. WM has a great web page that shows how to set your AC/DC/radio boat electrical system up so it works correctly.

 

[Ross]

I am absolutely commited to the use of GFCI's

on all AC circuits on a boat or any outside appliance. To do otherwise is to invite disaster.

 

[Don12364]

Honda Grounding

Here is an extract from Hondagenerator.co.uk about the Honda's floating earth.It is set up to give 55-0-55 with the '0' at frame potential. They say it then does not need a proper ground. This means if one side of the boat's supply is grounded there is 55v between generator frame and ground - not safe in my HO. It can be grounded and if so a RCD is advised.Question:- I have bought a generator, and I am concerned about safety. Can I use a personal power breaker?Answer : The generator is configured differently to the mains supply. The generator has a ‘floating earth’, whilst the mains has an earthed neutral. Whereas it is definitely recommended to use a personal power breaker (RCD) from the mains, for the majority of cases, it is not necessary to use one with a B&S generator. The generators are safe as they are designed.Personal power breakers are designed to operate from the mains. If one is to be used with a generator, then it is necessary to modify the generator so that it is configured in the same way as the mains. This is a relatively simple modification for a qualified electrician involving adding a link wire from the neutral terminal to the earth terminal. However, once the generator has been modified, it is necessary to then always use a personal power breaker and to also always use an earth spike, which connects between the generator frame and the ground. Since this is difficult to ensure, it is generally recommended not to modify the generator.

 

[Ross]

Donalex, Good information !

Thank You.

 

[Bill Roosa]

more floating grounds

a floating ground is fine for something like a car where you sit on rubber and never touch another car and only deal with 12 volts. It is also ok for a 110/220 generator that has its' frame on the ground. The "floating" ground just means that everything in the car has some base potential, usually a few volts, and the hot wires are 12 volts above that. For the generator it means that whatever the frame is at while it is sitting on the ground, also usually a few 10s of volts, is maintained as the base and the hot and neutral alternate around that by 110 volts.The problem is when you leave your generator in the back of the pickup truck or use it on your boat. There is no way to establish a "close to true" 0 volts ground and you can get some pretty high voltages in the ground circuit. Then when you touch something that is grounded (the water in the sink) and are using the hair dryer you are the path to ground.Donalex. Does the manual talk about always placing the generator on the ground before starting it or never using it from the back of a pickup truck?

 

[Ross]

Bill , With a floating ground you become a bird

on a wire. As long as the entire system is floating there will be no hazard. There is no difference between leaving the genset in the truck then placing it on a piece of plywood on the ground. If none of the energy produced by the genset is connected to anything other than the load then standing on eath and touching the hot side of the system will be the same as a bird on a wire. If you remember back far enough the radio and tv sets were built with two wire cords not polarized and you could get a shock from the chassis screws if the power cord was plugged in wrong and you had to unplug and turn the plug over and hook up again. But if the radio was connected to a portable system there was no shock hazard.

 

[Benny]

Last time our generator malfunctioned

was when water contaminated the fuel. (it was left on deck through a thunderstorm) If the little engine is not running right it will not produce adequate electrical power causing the overload breaker to trip prematurely.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Just a question

If this "floating ground" that's gonna electrocute people is true, how come most of the people who own Honda generators love 'em and, also, keep coming back alive to the dock?

 

[Bill Roosa]

I didn't say they where not safe

I said you can (read may also) get some pretty high voltages. Can it kill you? I guess the depends on how dumb you are. Ross's observation that many moons ago we had two wire plugs and you occasionally got a shock illustrates my point. Do we not now have polarized plugs and a ground wire for all AC recepticals??? Why do you think they did that? The big difference while boating is I am sitting on the official 0 Volts, 0 ohms ground (sea water) not the 0 volts 100 ohms ground you find in your back yard and routinely don't wear shoes that can insulate me from it so I float with the generator ground. A little resistance goes a long way to making floating grounds a non-issue.I did not mean to cause an argument. My point is this, most boats do not have the DC, AC and radio grounds tied together correctly and this CAN/MAY cause some problems on some boats that have unusual electrical properties. Getting shocked is one of those problems. Having the AC and DC grounds separated is not going to kill you unless a you 1) grab a hot wire or something that is malfunctioning and has the hot wire to the chassis, and 2) are also connected to a genuine earth ground, and 3) the two have more than about 75 volts difference between them and 4) that current goes across your heart. Can it happen? Yes. Does it happen a lot? No.BUTI have 3 kids and a wife that do not understand electricity and what we are talking about is adding 1 wire between the AC ground buss and the DC ground buss to TOTALLY eliminate the potential problem. I guess it achieved and surpassed my "bang for the buck" coefficient.Terry you can now consider your self absolved for stealing the last thread as someone (me) has stolen yours. I apologize.

 

[Rick I]

I've had mine for two years now.

The only problem is that the carburetor is a bit finicky and needs cleaning once in a while. This spring, towards the end of the season, it started acting up and requiring some choke to keep running. I took the carb apart and cleaned it with carb cleaner, then replaced the plug. As good as new. It does give a reverse polarity reading at the panel but I've learned to ignore it.