I am considering building a custom waste holding tank using plywood and epoxy. This would allow me to get a custom sized tank to fit my boat better. Has anyone had any experience (good or bad) with this approach?
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Not the best idea...
For one thing it would be VERY heavy. For another, if/when expansion and contraction ever puts any hairline cracks in the epoxy, you can end up with waste-logged rotted plywood. Before you resort to that, check out Ronco Plastics. (link below). They make TOP quality, thick-walled water and holding tanks, have more than 400 shapes and sizes to choose from--over 100 of which are non-rectangular--and for a VERY reasonable price. Quite a few folks here have gotten tanks from 'em and have been very pleased. I'd bet you can find a tank to fit your space in their catalog, which is on their website. Before you pick one, though, make sure you haven't selected the wrong location for a waste holding tank. I suggest you search the archives using keywords "holding tank odor" before going any further.
For one thing it would be VERY heavy. For another, if/when expansion and contraction ever puts any hairline cracks in the epoxy, you can end up with waste-logged rotted plywood. Before you resort to that, check out Ronco Plastics. (link below). They make TOP quality, thick-walled water and holding tanks, have more than 400 shapes and sizes to choose from--over 100 of which are non-rectangular--and for a VERY reasonable price. Quite a few folks here have gotten tanks from 'em and have been very pleased. I'd bet you can find a tank to fit your space in their catalog, which is on their website. Before you pick one, though, make sure you haven't selected the wrong location for a waste holding tank. I suggest you search the archives using keywords "holding tank odor" before going any further.
Question????
Have any of you actually built ANYTHING using plywood and epoxy???? I seriously doubt it by your replies to Mark. Get with the times people... epoxy is the way boat builders are going.. And this weight thing... get a scale for crying out loud. It's about 20 to 30 percent heavier. A 30 pound alumiun tank would weigh 37.5 pounds in epoxy. Is that going to sink your boat?? Now it's that damn alumiun holding tank of mine that has me worried.... If anyone would like the REAL info I'd be happy to forward it to you or you can contact West Systems..Ron/KA5HZV
Have any of you actually built ANYTHING using plywood and epoxy???? I seriously doubt it by your replies to Mark. Get with the times people... epoxy is the way boat builders are going.. And this weight thing... get a scale for crying out loud. It's about 20 to 30 percent heavier. A 30 pound alumiun tank would weigh 37.5 pounds in epoxy. Is that going to sink your boat?? Now it's that damn alumiun holding tank of mine that has me worried.... If anyone would like the REAL info I'd be happy to forward it to you or you can contact West Systems..Ron/KA5HZV
How many have you built and lived with, Ron?
You've apparently done some research and become convinced that replacing your failed water tanks with home-made plywood and epoxy, but how many have you actually built yet? How many have you seen that have been on boats 10,15, 20 years without any problems? How many that old, period? Epoxy may be the "way boatbuilders are going" when it comes to BUILDING boats, but most of the better builders are installing polyethylene or aluminum water tanks and polyethylene holding tanks, even though it would cost 'em less to mold 'em into the hull. I don't know what you base your weight calculations on...but a 2x8 sheet of 1/4" plywood--about enough to build a 40 gallon tank--sitting in my garage weighs over 40 lbs. If it were to be cut and made into a tank, and then epoxied inside and out, it would weigh more than 50 lbs. A 40 gallon holding tank with 3/8" walls that's also sitting in my garage weighs 26 lbs boxed for shipping. An average 40 gallon aluminum tank would weigh a little less.
You've apparently done some research and become convinced that replacing your failed water tanks with home-made plywood and epoxy, but how many have you actually built yet? How many have you seen that have been on boats 10,15, 20 years without any problems? How many that old, period? Epoxy may be the "way boatbuilders are going" when it comes to BUILDING boats, but most of the better builders are installing polyethylene or aluminum water tanks and polyethylene holding tanks, even though it would cost 'em less to mold 'em into the hull. I don't know what you base your weight calculations on...but a 2x8 sheet of 1/4" plywood--about enough to build a 40 gallon tank--sitting in my garage weighs over 40 lbs. If it were to be cut and made into a tank, and then epoxied inside and out, it would weigh more than 50 lbs. A 40 gallon holding tank with 3/8" walls that's also sitting in my garage weighs 26 lbs boxed for shipping. An average 40 gallon aluminum tank would weigh a little less.
I used to wonder why the Brits can't pronounce
"aluminum"...till I realized they don't know how to spell it either.
"aluminum"...till I realized they don't know how to spell it either.
Peggy... Funny you should ask..
Here is a number for you if you want to get the answers to your questions. Gougeon Brother Inc. 100 Patterson Ave. Bay City Michigan 48706 989-684-7286 Ask for Brian. As for how many tanks I've built, the answer is two. How many have you built? 20 years of service? You got me there. Epoxy hasn't been around that long. Aluminum (check the spelling) has and it isn't doing too well. You seem to have a thing about Ronco; call them. Ask for Scott and he'll tell you the same thing. I can't begin to guess why you are so against epoxy which is proving to be a remarkable and easy to use system for building anything including airplanes. As for weight, if you are comparing epoxy/wood to plastic you are absolutely correct. But if you are comparing it to aluminum there isn't a big difference. I have two aluminum tanks I be happy to ship to you if you want to pay the freight. They are HEAVY! So, it appears we disagree once again. But, I will be more than happy to check out your sources that say it won't work if you will do the same for mine which say it will. I am anxiously awaiting your reply with some expert phone numbers. Don't just say I'm wrong... Prove it! Your ol' Bud... Ron
Here is a number for you if you want to get the answers to your questions. Gougeon Brother Inc. 100 Patterson Ave. Bay City Michigan 48706 989-684-7286 Ask for Brian. As for how many tanks I've built, the answer is two. How many have you built? 20 years of service? You got me there. Epoxy hasn't been around that long. Aluminum (check the spelling) has and it isn't doing too well. You seem to have a thing about Ronco; call them. Ask for Scott and he'll tell you the same thing. I can't begin to guess why you are so against epoxy which is proving to be a remarkable and easy to use system for building anything including airplanes. As for weight, if you are comparing epoxy/wood to plastic you are absolutely correct. But if you are comparing it to aluminum there isn't a big difference. I have two aluminum tanks I be happy to ship to you if you want to pay the freight. They are HEAVY! So, it appears we disagree once again. But, I will be more than happy to check out your sources that say it won't work if you will do the same for mine which say it will. I am anxiously awaiting your reply with some expert phone numbers. Don't just say I'm wrong... Prove it! Your ol' Bud... Ron
I have one .......
that I made out of a fuel tank purchased new, transparet plastic tank made for fuel, but it was the size and shape I needed. I used 5200 to put the fittings in that would make it work and used existing fittings as well. Does it work? ... you bet it does! Its been in the boat for 18 years now and never ever leaked a drop and does not have any odor either. I don't think I would want to use anything like wood on a holding tank, best stick with materials that will not obsorb moisture and odors. You could use card board to make the shape of your form needed then cover it with several layers of expoxy and fiberglass cloth, woven and mat to say 4-5 layers each, however, the cost would be high compared to doing what I did.
that I made out of a fuel tank purchased new, transparet plastic tank made for fuel, but it was the size and shape I needed. I used 5200 to put the fittings in that would make it work and used existing fittings as well. Does it work? ... you bet it does! Its been in the boat for 18 years now and never ever leaked a drop and does not have any odor either. I don't think I would want to use anything like wood on a holding tank, best stick with materials that will not obsorb moisture and odors. You could use card board to make the shape of your form needed then cover it with several layers of expoxy and fiberglass cloth, woven and mat to say 4-5 layers each, however, the cost would be high compared to doing what I did.
David Underwood
Your point is well taken. Had I been able to find the proper size and shape I would not have taken on this project. But... no tanks were available for a reasonable cost. Using a wooden core saturated with epoxy will prevent water/sewage from entering the plywood. Your suggestion of building a mold would also work, but as you point out would be cost prohibitive. That's why boat builders are beginning to use balsa wood in their designs. The point of all of this discussion is not whether there are other products which will do the same job, because, of course there are. The point is, will epoxy coated wood work... and it will. There are just too many experts in the field who say so. Is it labor intensive??? You bet. If I could have picked up a tank for a hundred-fifty bucks (which fit) we wouldn't be having this discussion. Unfortunately.... The last question would be, "can anyone do it?" The answer to that would be No! If a person doesn't feel comfortable with tools then perhaps that person should look for another approach. Sort of like the dodger you built. It looks great, but obviously not everyone can do that kind of work. I can and do, so I don't find building water or holding tanks to be an impossibility... Whew! I'm tired.... A good day to you... Ron
Your point is well taken. Had I been able to find the proper size and shape I would not have taken on this project. But... no tanks were available for a reasonable cost. Using a wooden core saturated with epoxy will prevent water/sewage from entering the plywood. Your suggestion of building a mold would also work, but as you point out would be cost prohibitive. That's why boat builders are beginning to use balsa wood in their designs. The point of all of this discussion is not whether there are other products which will do the same job, because, of course there are. The point is, will epoxy coated wood work... and it will. There are just too many experts in the field who say so. Is it labor intensive??? You bet. If I could have picked up a tank for a hundred-fifty bucks (which fit) we wouldn't be having this discussion. Unfortunately.... The last question would be, "can anyone do it?" The answer to that would be No! If a person doesn't feel comfortable with tools then perhaps that person should look for another approach. Sort of like the dodger you built. It looks great, but obviously not everyone can do that kind of work. I can and do, so I don't find building water or holding tanks to be an impossibility... Whew! I'm tired.... A good day to you... Ron
I don't have any problem with aluminum for water
holding. Typical lifespan of an aluminum water tank is at least 20 years. I PREFER plastic for water because a good quality water tank should last as long as the boat does. Waste holding is a different matter...urine is so corrosive that it'll turn any metal holding tank into a collander within 10 years. According to industry experts (or do you think I make this stuff up all by myself?), plastic is the ONLY choice for waste holding--but not cheap thin plastic...good quality thick-walled plastic of the quality Ronco builds. I'm not sure what you mean by "a thing" with Ronco. They supplied at least 95% of our tanks for the last 10 years I owned my company...they began supplying to Raritan when Raritan bought my company. I've never found another mfr who comes anywhere near the quality of their tanks for any price, much less for anywhere near their prices, nor any other mfr who offers anywhere close to the number of shapes and sizes they do...I can't remember more than 3 or 4 boats for which we couldn't find a fit in their catalog in the whole 10+ years--and none of 'em were production boats. So I don't need to talk to Ronco...I've already spent years talking with Scott and Rich and Ron. Nor do I need to talk with Geugeon Bros...I spent an entire evening talking with their people at IBEX a few years ago. And I still spend a LOT of time talking with surveyors and ABYC tech committee members who collectively see more, and have their own "stables" of experts who see even more, in a year than one person could see in a whole career. I go with the best advice I can get. But if you want to build water tanks out of plywood and epoxy, it's fine with me...it is, after all, YOUR boat...not mine.
holding. Typical lifespan of an aluminum water tank is at least 20 years. I PREFER plastic for water because a good quality water tank should last as long as the boat does. Waste holding is a different matter...urine is so corrosive that it'll turn any metal holding tank into a collander within 10 years. According to industry experts (or do you think I make this stuff up all by myself?), plastic is the ONLY choice for waste holding--but not cheap thin plastic...good quality thick-walled plastic of the quality Ronco builds. I'm not sure what you mean by "a thing" with Ronco. They supplied at least 95% of our tanks for the last 10 years I owned my company...they began supplying to Raritan when Raritan bought my company. I've never found another mfr who comes anywhere near the quality of their tanks for any price, much less for anywhere near their prices, nor any other mfr who offers anywhere close to the number of shapes and sizes they do...I can't remember more than 3 or 4 boats for which we couldn't find a fit in their catalog in the whole 10+ years--and none of 'em were production boats. So I don't need to talk to Ronco...I've already spent years talking with Scott and Rich and Ron. Nor do I need to talk with Geugeon Bros...I spent an entire evening talking with their people at IBEX a few years ago. And I still spend a LOT of time talking with surveyors and ABYC tech committee members who collectively see more, and have their own "stables" of experts who see even more, in a year than one person could see in a whole career. I go with the best advice I can get. But if you want to build water tanks out of plywood and epoxy, it's fine with me...it is, after all, YOUR boat...not mine.
Good Grief
Peggy... I give up. You win. Epoxy sucks! I didn't know you were in business selling water tanks. That explains why nothing else will work. If I made my living selling Fords I sure wouldn't recommend Chevys. And no, I don't think you make this stuff up. I do think you are a bit behind though. Hey, you're the one who mentioned it! Anyway, maybe we can get a builder's forum from Phil and you and I won't cross paths anymore. I'm just one of those people who doesn't believe you have to pay someone to get a good job done. Believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there just like me.. scary, huh? Have a good day and good luck in your tank business.. I'm having good luck in building my own.... See Ya.....
Peggy... I give up. You win. Epoxy sucks! I didn't know you were in business selling water tanks. That explains why nothing else will work. If I made my living selling Fords I sure wouldn't recommend Chevys. And no, I don't think you make this stuff up. I do think you are a bit behind though. Hey, you're the one who mentioned it! Anyway, maybe we can get a builder's forum from Phil and you and I won't cross paths anymore. I'm just one of those people who doesn't believe you have to pay someone to get a good job done. Believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there just like me.. scary, huh? Have a good day and good luck in your tank business.. I'm having good luck in building my own.... See Ya.....
Gee whiz guys....
I'm not in the "business" of backing up Peggy, but I will say this. You asked for some advise and she gave it to you. Yes, you can disagree and argue her point, but you have to factor in the fact that she has been in the marine sanitization field for quite some years. I bet she has seen a lot of things work and not work when it comes to heads and holding tanks. Taking a crack at her for recommending plastic tanks for her own gain is incorrect and a bit offensive. Ronco is a whole different company that she knows has good products. That is like me suggesting you buy a Westebeke engine or a Catalina boat......it just says I have used their stuff & I think they have worthwile products Sure, it doesn't mean she has all the answers and that there aren't new ways to do things out there, but you have to give her credit for what she has seen done wrong. I bet she has seen a lot of "Rube Goldberg" contraptions that seemed like a great idea at that the time, But turn into disasters. But I myself have taken issue with some of the "blanket statements" that she makes and I know every circumstance is unique.(remember the statements that aluminum foil on the hose would cause the thru hulls and other metal to have problems....'nuff said) The epoxy tank might work, but her comments are more that it has not been "field tested" over years and many boats like the other tanks have. So go for it and report back in a few years and if you can get another 50-100 boats to do so then it will prove your point... Also, I looked at Ronco's tanks and most of their tanks up to 25 gallons are less than $200. Not much more than you said you are going to spend making your epoxy one. (Not to mention the time and work involved) I understand if they don't stock the size/shape one you are looking for, so I say " go knock yourself out" take pictures and let us all know how it works out.
I'm not in the "business" of backing up Peggy, but I will say this. You asked for some advise and she gave it to you. Yes, you can disagree and argue her point, but you have to factor in the fact that she has been in the marine sanitization field for quite some years. I bet she has seen a lot of things work and not work when it comes to heads and holding tanks. Taking a crack at her for recommending plastic tanks for her own gain is incorrect and a bit offensive. Ronco is a whole different company that she knows has good products. That is like me suggesting you buy a Westebeke engine or a Catalina boat......it just says I have used their stuff & I think they have worthwile products Sure, it doesn't mean she has all the answers and that there aren't new ways to do things out there, but you have to give her credit for what she has seen done wrong. I bet she has seen a lot of "Rube Goldberg" contraptions that seemed like a great idea at that the time, But turn into disasters. But I myself have taken issue with some of the "blanket statements" that she makes and I know every circumstance is unique.(remember the statements that aluminum foil on the hose would cause the thru hulls and other metal to have problems....'nuff said) The epoxy tank might work, but her comments are more that it has not been "field tested" over years and many boats like the other tanks have. So go for it and report back in a few years and if you can get another 50-100 boats to do so then it will prove your point... Also, I looked at Ronco's tanks and most of their tanks up to 25 gallons are less than $200. Not much more than you said you are going to spend making your epoxy one. (Not to mention the time and work involved) I understand if they don't stock the size/shape one you are looking for, so I say " go knock yourself out" take pictures and let us all know how it works out.
Peggy... My Apologies
Tom makes a good point. Sometimes I get carried away when I believe in something. You should have seen me in November of 2000. If I offended you, I am sorry. Ron Pearson (not the Ron Pearson who owns Ronco... obviously)
Tom makes a good point. Sometimes I get carried away when I believe in something. You should have seen me in November of 2000. If I offended you, I am sorry. Ron Pearson (not the Ron Pearson who owns Ronco... obviously)
Bad Fiberglass Box Experience
Hi Mark - you asked if anyone else had any experience, good or bad. Well, sort of related, a few years ago, unable to locate suitable plastic boxes for golf carts to fit my battery compartment, I set out to make my own using 3/4-in plywood. I came up with a list of materials and it seemed like a cheap way to go. I made the box according to instructions in Wings book. Meanwhile, about a month later (it seemed like it was that long) I was just finishing my project when I came across some ready-made boxes at Dyno in Seattle which were exactly what I needed. Because my project box had some shortcommings, such as appearance, size, weight, I opted to buy a couple plastic ones. Figuring up the cost of my wood box, materials only was over $100, which means I had grossly under-estimated the project (and I've got a lot of construction estimating experience). Labor, my time is worth something, I'm got untold hours in it. Fiberglass doesn't stick upside down very well! Nor very well on a side wall, it likes to slither down until it kicks. Due to the several layers of glass required on all the corners, inside and outside, one must work the project in spurts. Also, it's difficult to mix up small batches of resin or epoxy and get the proportions exactly right. By the way, I still have my home made battery box as I can't bare to throw it away. Hope this helps.
Hi Mark - you asked if anyone else had any experience, good or bad. Well, sort of related, a few years ago, unable to locate suitable plastic boxes for golf carts to fit my battery compartment, I set out to make my own using 3/4-in plywood. I came up with a list of materials and it seemed like a cheap way to go. I made the box according to instructions in Wings book. Meanwhile, about a month later (it seemed like it was that long) I was just finishing my project when I came across some ready-made boxes at Dyno in Seattle which were exactly what I needed. Because my project box had some shortcommings, such as appearance, size, weight, I opted to buy a couple plastic ones. Figuring up the cost of my wood box, materials only was over $100, which means I had grossly under-estimated the project (and I've got a lot of construction estimating experience). Labor, my time is worth something, I'm got untold hours in it. Fiberglass doesn't stick upside down very well! Nor very well on a side wall, it likes to slither down until it kicks. Due to the several layers of glass required on all the corners, inside and outside, one must work the project in spurts. Also, it's difficult to mix up small batches of resin or epoxy and get the proportions exactly right. By the way, I still have my home made battery box as I can't bare to throw it away. Hope this helps.
No apology needed...however--some clarification
I'm not in the business of selling water tanks or anything else, and haven't been since I sold my company to Raritan nearly 4 years ago. The tank I referred to earlier is one of three "leftovers" that have been sitting in my garage ever since. One of these days I'll get around to selling 'em on eBay, along with some odd & end fittings. I've spent most of the last 4 years writing a book, which I finally finished a couple of months ago, and which has just been accepted by a publisher. It should be out in early spring. Meanwhile, the only thing I have to offer any more is free advice based on accumulated knowledge and that of MANY industry people to whom I continue to turn when I need information, especially when issues like this one arise...'cuz as technology changes, I have to keep up with it if I'm gonna continue to give sound advice. Whether anyone takes it is entirely up to them.
I'm not in the business of selling water tanks or anything else, and haven't been since I sold my company to Raritan nearly 4 years ago. The tank I referred to earlier is one of three "leftovers" that have been sitting in my garage ever since. One of these days I'll get around to selling 'em on eBay, along with some odd & end fittings. I've spent most of the last 4 years writing a book, which I finally finished a couple of months ago, and which has just been accepted by a publisher. It should be out in early spring. Meanwhile, the only thing I have to offer any more is free advice based on accumulated knowledge and that of MANY industry people to whom I continue to turn when I need information, especially when issues like this one arise...'cuz as technology changes, I have to keep up with it if I'm gonna continue to give sound advice. Whether anyone takes it is entirely up to them.
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