Good morning Peggy: As noted in my previous posts I have been fighting my head for the last few months. The latest and is my holding tank. No matter what I do I cannot empty it. I have tried the macerator pump, the pump out station, and a service. None of which seems to work. After spending a few hours this weekend with different senario,s I havew come to the conclusion that the tank is plugged on the discharge side. My newest question is What if anything cxan i run through the discharge hose to attempt to clear it? Can i use a hand snake or Muratic acid or ???? thanks.......bobcat
holding tank
- Thread starter bobcat17801
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Are you able to pump it at all?
Are you able to get anything pumped out at all and just can not empty it? Or nothing comes out at all? and is your tank plastic/nylon or Alu? I think that will make a difference as to what you can use to clean it out. I just went through a similar experience as you. My tank's capacity is about 25-27 gal, and during the last 12 months, I was able to get about 5 gal pumped out, and then it stops. I thought it might be the gunk turning into solid concrete, or turning into a think rubber mat like what's in the home septic tanks. So, the 1st thing was to find out what is in the tank. I flushed the tank the best I could, meaning putting fresh water into it, and pump out the 5 gal, then again, and again... Then I install a inspection port. When I cut the tank open, I found it empty except slightly brown water. No clogs, no solids, no mat. I then realized it was the pickup tube. It is a bit like sucking on a soda straw with a extra hole on the side part way down the straw. You can suck the soda until you reach the 1st hole, then you end up sucking air. I purchased a replacement pickup tube, or stand pipe. Installed it in about a couple of hours, re-routed the output hose, and done. No more problems. I wanted the existing tank to last as long as possible before I replace it. Since replacing it will require cutting into part of the bulkhead. Maybe Peggy will have some great ideas.
Are you able to get anything pumped out at all and just can not empty it? Or nothing comes out at all? and is your tank plastic/nylon or Alu? I think that will make a difference as to what you can use to clean it out. I just went through a similar experience as you. My tank's capacity is about 25-27 gal, and during the last 12 months, I was able to get about 5 gal pumped out, and then it stops. I thought it might be the gunk turning into solid concrete, or turning into a think rubber mat like what's in the home septic tanks. So, the 1st thing was to find out what is in the tank. I flushed the tank the best I could, meaning putting fresh water into it, and pump out the 5 gal, then again, and again... Then I install a inspection port. When I cut the tank open, I found it empty except slightly brown water. No clogs, no solids, no mat. I then realized it was the pickup tube. It is a bit like sucking on a soda straw with a extra hole on the side part way down the straw. You can suck the soda until you reach the 1st hole, then you end up sucking air. I purchased a replacement pickup tube, or stand pipe. Installed it in about a couple of hours, re-routed the output hose, and done. No more problems. I wanted the existing tank to last as long as possible before I replace it. Since replacing it will require cutting into part of the bulkhead. Maybe Peggy will have some great ideas.
able to pump
JC..... As far as i can tell there is nothing being pumped out by either the maserator or the pump station. I can test the fullness by removing the brezther line and ctch the overflow in a bucket, pump out and repeat. No difference in overflow. I have done the intake side from through hull to tank entrance and no obstructions. Just cant 't get the tank empry!!!!! thanks .......bobcat
JC..... As far as i can tell there is nothing being pumped out by either the maserator or the pump station. I can test the fullness by removing the brezther line and ctch the overflow in a bucket, pump out and repeat. No difference in overflow. I have done the intake side from through hull to tank entrance and no obstructions. Just cant 't get the tank empry!!!!! thanks .......bobcat
It could still be the pickup tube
The pickup tube could still be the problem. it could've broke or disconnected at the top, so it is just sucking air. Usually both the macerator and the deck pumpout goes through the same pipe coming out of the tank. So if the pipe is sucking air just inside of the tank, then it would be the same no matter what you used to pump it out. I think the 1st thing is to find out what is in your tank. Sorry to say, I think the only way is to drill a hole and install a inspection port. Dirty business, but somebody's gotta do it. If you need to find a place to get a inspection port, there is a place north of Seattle where they make these. They are very beefy, and is designed for commercial boat tanks. It will work for diesel, water, and waste tanks. If you want more details, let me know. Don't use the plastic inspection ports since they will probably leak, odor if not liquid also.
The pickup tube could still be the problem. it could've broke or disconnected at the top, so it is just sucking air. Usually both the macerator and the deck pumpout goes through the same pipe coming out of the tank. So if the pipe is sucking air just inside of the tank, then it would be the same no matter what you used to pump it out. I think the 1st thing is to find out what is in your tank. Sorry to say, I think the only way is to drill a hole and install a inspection port. Dirty business, but somebody's gotta do it. If you need to find a place to get a inspection port, there is a place north of Seattle where they make these. They are very beefy, and is designed for commercial boat tanks. It will work for diesel, water, and waste tanks. If you want more details, let me know. Don't use the plastic inspection ports since they will probably leak, odor if not liquid also.
First thing to check: the tank VENT
If the vent is blocked, the macerator and pumpout will pull a vacuum, preventing anything from being pumped out. The most common locations for a vent blockage are the thru-hull and--especially on sailboats, 'cuz heeling sends waste into the vent--the fitting on the tank and that end of the hose. If that's not it...and if you haven't flushed out your tank in a while--if ever--you could have an accumulation of sludge that's clogged up the discharge hose or pickup tube. But my money is on a clogged vent.
If the vent is blocked, the macerator and pumpout will pull a vacuum, preventing anything from being pumped out. The most common locations for a vent blockage are the thru-hull and--especially on sailboats, 'cuz heeling sends waste into the vent--the fitting on the tank and that end of the hose. If that's not it...and if you haven't flushed out your tank in a while--if ever--you could have an accumulation of sludge that's clogged up the discharge hose or pickup tube. But my money is on a clogged vent.
Mine had a problem like this
I could pump out at the dock but the macerator would not pump. I discovered that the deck cap must be in place for the macerator to work. That may be a part of your problem. I do not have a solution beyond the aforementioned plugged vent which may prevent dockside pumping. Might be a combination of the two.
I could pump out at the dock but the macerator would not pump. I discovered that the deck cap must be in place for the macerator to work. That may be a part of your problem. I do not have a solution beyond the aforementioned plugged vent which may prevent dockside pumping. Might be a combination of the two.
check list completed
Here's the senario as of today. checked all leading to the tank and there is no blockage. pulled the vent off the top of the tank and is is free and clear. attempted to pump out at station ...no luck attempted to pump out with macerator ... no luck. have had service come and pump out every year since owning the boat (never checked til this time) ....mo luck. owned the boat for three years and am begining to believe that the tank has never been emptied. I believe that peggy is correct in assuming that i have sludge backed up at the exit point. NOW...What or how do I approach this? would like to do it as simple as possible, but figure it,s going to be a mess.......any good sugestions??? The boat is a 1981 catalina 30! thanks...bobcat
Here's the senario as of today. checked all leading to the tank and there is no blockage. pulled the vent off the top of the tank and is is free and clear. attempted to pump out at station ...no luck attempted to pump out with macerator ... no luck. have had service come and pump out every year since owning the boat (never checked til this time) ....mo luck. owned the boat for three years and am begining to believe that the tank has never been emptied. I believe that peggy is correct in assuming that i have sludge backed up at the exit point. NOW...What or how do I approach this? would like to do it as simple as possible, but figure it,s going to be a mess.......any good sugestions??? The boat is a 1981 catalina 30! thanks...bobcat
Did you check the vent thru-hull???
The thru-hull--part on the outside of the hull--is the most common place for a vent blockage. The screen clogs up with dust, pollen etc...insects like to build nests under the clam shell cover...waste builds up in the opening. Did you only inspect the vent HOSE when you pulled it off the tank...or did you also remove the threaded fitting and check for buildup in it? Did you trace the vent line to check for a kink in it? Is there a filter in the vent line? If so, it's likely to be clogged. Filters are only good for one season at most, and are toast immediately if they get wet. On sailboats especially, clogged filters are highly likely. You didn't mention doing any of those things in your "completed" check list. And my money is STILL on the vent.
The thru-hull--part on the outside of the hull--is the most common place for a vent blockage. The screen clogs up with dust, pollen etc...insects like to build nests under the clam shell cover...waste builds up in the opening. Did you only inspect the vent HOSE when you pulled it off the tank...or did you also remove the threaded fitting and check for buildup in it? Did you trace the vent line to check for a kink in it? Is there a filter in the vent line? If so, it's likely to be clogged. Filters are only good for one season at most, and are toast immediately if they get wet. On sailboats especially, clogged filters are highly likely. You didn't mention doing any of those things in your "completed" check list. And my money is STILL on the vent.
check list II
Peggy, as far as the vent is concerned I have replaced the tube from the tank to the deck. All is new and streight up. As for the plastic fitting , when i remove it i get just liquid flowing out, no sludge. I have replaced the y valve on the in take side and it works great. Now , i have no way to remove th3e sludge other than yusing something to break it up or going into the tank and manually removing the clog. IS THERE SOMETHING I CAN USE TO SOFTEN UP THE SLUDGE OR CAN I USE A SNAKE ON THE OUTPUT SIDE?
Peggy, as far as the vent is concerned I have replaced the tube from the tank to the deck. All is new and streight up. As for the plastic fitting , when i remove it i get just liquid flowing out, no sludge. I have replaced the y valve on the in take side and it works great. Now , i have no way to remove th3e sludge other than yusing something to break it up or going into the tank and manually removing the clog. IS THERE SOMETHING I CAN USE TO SOFTEN UP THE SLUDGE OR CAN I USE A SNAKE ON THE OUTPUT SIDE?
HOLDING TANK II
looking for some answers please. As stated in the original post and the subsequent posting, I have a holding tank problem. To answer all the replies the following has been done. I have removed and reun the tank breather , making it a straight up thru deck vent. I have removed the plastic fitting and get nothing but liquid flowing thru (no Sledge). I have replaced the Y valve on the intake side, and verified that the hoses are clear ( plan to repplace when the tank is empty). Had the tank pumped out ( or so i thought) twice this year and at least once the prior two years( no sucsess). attempted to pump out myself at pump station, and again, no success. Tryed the macerator and no success. It has come down to the outbound side of the tank at which point i believe there is something blocking the exit port of the tank. Now for the question of the day.....IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN PUUT INTO THE TANK THAT WOULD SOFTEN THE SLUDGE??? CAN I USE A HAND SNAKE THROU THE PUMPOUT ON DECK??? OR AM I DESTINED TO OPEN THE TANKL AND GO IN BY HAND TO CLEAN IT??? I am planning to attack it again this weekend so anything would be appreciated. bobcat Catalina 30
looking for some answers please. As stated in the original post and the subsequent posting, I have a holding tank problem. To answer all the replies the following has been done. I have removed and reun the tank breather , making it a straight up thru deck vent. I have removed the plastic fitting and get nothing but liquid flowing thru (no Sledge). I have replaced the Y valve on the intake side, and verified that the hoses are clear ( plan to repplace when the tank is empty). Had the tank pumped out ( or so i thought) twice this year and at least once the prior two years( no sucsess). attempted to pump out myself at pump station, and again, no success. Tryed the macerator and no success. It has come down to the outbound side of the tank at which point i believe there is something blocking the exit port of the tank. Now for the question of the day.....IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN PUUT INTO THE TANK THAT WOULD SOFTEN THE SLUDGE??? CAN I USE A HAND SNAKE THROU THE PUMPOUT ON DECK??? OR AM I DESTINED TO OPEN THE TANKL AND GO IN BY HAND TO CLEAN IT??? I am planning to attack it again this weekend so anything would be appreciated. bobcat Catalina 30
I think only you can answer the snake
question, bobcat. It would seem to depend on the routing of your hoses, fittings, and most importantly the Y fitting on the tank discharge. A snake is flexible, yes, and I have used one in various pipes, tubes and hoses over the years - although never on a boat. I would suggest eye-balling your pumpout line from the deck to the y-valve to determine how the snake will behave inside. The y-valve is your biggest obstacle - it may not be possible to get the mandrel (that's the doohicky on the end of the snake - don't just us a fish-tape) around the sharp bend. However, if you turn it slowly (I've done that with a cordless drill, although turning it by hand lets you get some good feedback to be able to judge where it is and what it is doing) it will sometimes 'walk' itself (did I just suggest a snake could walk???) around and through obstacles. Slowly, carefully, gently..... If you have teenaged children (I have 4) I would NOT suggest giving them this job!! BTW, as I work through my new (to me) boat, the holding tank slowly rises up the list. Nothing wrong with it that I know of, but the lid looks like it was sealed a LONG time ago, and sooner or later it will start seeping, seeping, yuck! The water tank already did and I got to pull the lid and reseat it. That was a minor pain compared with the holding tank, I'm sure. I am not aware of anything you could put in the tank to help break up the sludge. My sneaking suspicion is that there might be something other than normal waste and quick-dissolve TP in there.... Good luck. Be sure to let us know how it came out (pun not intended?). Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
question, bobcat. It would seem to depend on the routing of your hoses, fittings, and most importantly the Y fitting on the tank discharge. A snake is flexible, yes, and I have used one in various pipes, tubes and hoses over the years - although never on a boat. I would suggest eye-balling your pumpout line from the deck to the y-valve to determine how the snake will behave inside. The y-valve is your biggest obstacle - it may not be possible to get the mandrel (that's the doohicky on the end of the snake - don't just us a fish-tape) around the sharp bend. However, if you turn it slowly (I've done that with a cordless drill, although turning it by hand lets you get some good feedback to be able to judge where it is and what it is doing) it will sometimes 'walk' itself (did I just suggest a snake could walk???) around and through obstacles. Slowly, carefully, gently..... If you have teenaged children (I have 4) I would NOT suggest giving them this job!! BTW, as I work through my new (to me) boat, the holding tank slowly rises up the list. Nothing wrong with it that I know of, but the lid looks like it was sealed a LONG time ago, and sooner or later it will start seeping, seeping, yuck! The water tank already did and I got to pull the lid and reseat it. That was a minor pain compared with the holding tank, I'm sure. I am not aware of anything you could put in the tank to help break up the sludge. My sneaking suspicion is that there might be something other than normal waste and quick-dissolve TP in there.... Good luck. Be sure to let us know how it came out (pun not intended?). Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
BTW, bobcat
With all your checklists and requests for specific answers to specific questions, it won't be long before Peggy accuses you of being an engineer! That would make you the third 'Engineer Bob' in this particular forum in the past couple of weeks. Peggy, I think those guys over in the 'sail into your slip' thread totally missed the points and logic in your post. Sure seems there's a lot of 'conflict-seekers' out there... I won't mention any names, but they are easy to spot! Also BTW, I would love to make the boat show in Seattle, but I'm travelling back east in September to spend some time with my folks, including playing golf with my dad (80 and still very active). We'll meet up somewhere and I'll hold you to your kind offer! Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
With all your checklists and requests for specific answers to specific questions, it won't be long before Peggy accuses you of being an engineer! That would make you the third 'Engineer Bob' in this particular forum in the past couple of weeks. Peggy, I think those guys over in the 'sail into your slip' thread totally missed the points and logic in your post. Sure seems there's a lot of 'conflict-seekers' out there... I won't mention any names, but they are easy to spot! Also BTW, I would love to make the boat show in Seattle, but I'm travelling back east in September to spend some time with my folks, including playing golf with my dad (80 and still very active). We'll meet up somewhere and I'll hold you to your kind offer! Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
If the y-valve gives you a clear path...
You should be able to run a snake down the discharge line through the deck fitting. Where is the discharge fitting on your tank---at the top, with a pickup tube inside the tank to the bottom? Or at the bottom of the tank? If it's at the top, you should be able to clear any clog (which since you absolutely refuse to check the vent thru-hull fitting for a blockage, I continue to question) by just removing the fitting...the pickup tube should be attached to the fitting and will come out with it. If it's at the bottom, you should be able to run a snake all the way into the tank. Before you do that, just for the hell of it...disconnect the vent line from the tank and turn on the macerator. You seem to have determined that the vent is not blocked at the tank...so if the problem is a clogged vent thru-hull, the tank will get enough air directly through the fitting to allow the macerator to pull something out of it. I'm really curious: you've had a full tank for at least a year...maybe two. You've been using the toilet all that time...so if there's no room in the tank, where have all those flushes gone???? They had to go SOMEwhere!
You should be able to run a snake down the discharge line through the deck fitting. Where is the discharge fitting on your tank---at the top, with a pickup tube inside the tank to the bottom? Or at the bottom of the tank? If it's at the top, you should be able to clear any clog (which since you absolutely refuse to check the vent thru-hull fitting for a blockage, I continue to question) by just removing the fitting...the pickup tube should be attached to the fitting and will come out with it. If it's at the bottom, you should be able to run a snake all the way into the tank. Before you do that, just for the hell of it...disconnect the vent line from the tank and turn on the macerator. You seem to have determined that the vent is not blocked at the tank...so if the problem is a clogged vent thru-hull, the tank will get enough air directly through the fitting to allow the macerator to pull something out of it. I'm really curious: you've had a full tank for at least a year...maybe two. You've been using the toilet all that time...so if there's no room in the tank, where have all those flushes gone???? They had to go SOMEwhere!
It sure looks like the same problem I had
I would still go back to my earlier post and the suspect is the pickup tube. Here's what I did: I pumped using the deck fitting, out came about 5 gallons and quits. I pumped using the macerator, out came about the same amount. I disconnected the breather tube at the holding tank, lifted the end so it is higher than the exit hole on the hull, poured a bit of water in from the tank end, and it ran out of the exit hole on the hull. I reconnected the breather tube to the holding tank, poured water into the exit hole on the hull, and the water never filled the tube, So, breather tube is clear all the way into the tank. I opened the deck fitting, and slowly poured water into it, eventually water came out of the breather exit hole. I also thought about using a snake. Looking at the tank's fittings, the input and output to the tank are both on the side near the top edge. The breather connection is on the top surface of the tank. The output goes from the tank to a T fitting. Since I don't know how to explain the parts of a T fitting, so I have drawn a picture below. Based on the drawing, I could use a snake from the deck fitting and go straight through the T fitting and into the tank. I don't know how your tank is fitted, so you will have to look at it. However, the T fitting is at the top of the side panel, once inside, no way is a snake going to make a turn by itself downward towards the bottom of the tank. Also, once the snake goes into the tank from the output fitting, there is another tube inside, and it makes a 90 degree turn down to the bottom of the tank. This is the pickup tube. You won't be able to make the snake take that turn either. I know all of this to this level of detail because I drilled a 6" hole to look inside of the tank, followed by installing a 6" inspection plate. Now I know more than I have ever wanted to know about the poop tank. Anyway, once I drilled the 6" hole and looked inside, I knew there is no way a snake would've worked. By the way, depending on the size of your tank and how it was designed, there may be a baffle. Yeah, I know this because I drilled my 6" hole right on top of it. So much fun. That added another 3-4 hours of work removing the top part of the baffle so I could installed the underside of the inspection plate. So, I don't think you really can put anything in there to break it up other than the usual stuff from WestMarine, or vinegar, but not a snake. My pickup tube got a hole on the side and it was sucking air after pumping out the top 5 gallons or so. I installed a new pickup tube, it is a PVC pipe + fittings, and all is well now, finally. So, my money is still on the pickup tube. If you want more detailed, step by step info, let me know and I will email you all the steps.
I would still go back to my earlier post and the suspect is the pickup tube. Here's what I did: I pumped using the deck fitting, out came about 5 gallons and quits. I pumped using the macerator, out came about the same amount. I disconnected the breather tube at the holding tank, lifted the end so it is higher than the exit hole on the hull, poured a bit of water in from the tank end, and it ran out of the exit hole on the hull. I reconnected the breather tube to the holding tank, poured water into the exit hole on the hull, and the water never filled the tube, So, breather tube is clear all the way into the tank. I opened the deck fitting, and slowly poured water into it, eventually water came out of the breather exit hole. I also thought about using a snake. Looking at the tank's fittings, the input and output to the tank are both on the side near the top edge. The breather connection is on the top surface of the tank. The output goes from the tank to a T fitting. Since I don't know how to explain the parts of a T fitting, so I have drawn a picture below. Based on the drawing, I could use a snake from the deck fitting and go straight through the T fitting and into the tank. I don't know how your tank is fitted, so you will have to look at it. However, the T fitting is at the top of the side panel, once inside, no way is a snake going to make a turn by itself downward towards the bottom of the tank. Also, once the snake goes into the tank from the output fitting, there is another tube inside, and it makes a 90 degree turn down to the bottom of the tank. This is the pickup tube. You won't be able to make the snake take that turn either. I know all of this to this level of detail because I drilled a 6" hole to look inside of the tank, followed by installing a 6" inspection plate. Now I know more than I have ever wanted to know about the poop tank. Anyway, once I drilled the 6" hole and looked inside, I knew there is no way a snake would've worked. By the way, depending on the size of your tank and how it was designed, there may be a baffle. Yeah, I know this because I drilled my 6" hole right on top of it. So much fun. That added another 3-4 hours of work removing the top part of the baffle so I could installed the underside of the inspection plate. So, I don't think you really can put anything in there to break it up other than the usual stuff from WestMarine, or vinegar, but not a snake. My pickup tube got a hole on the side and it was sucking air after pumping out the top 5 gallons or so. I installed a new pickup tube, it is a PVC pipe + fittings, and all is well now, finally. So, my money is still on the pickup tube. If you want more detailed, step by step info, let me know and I will email you all the steps.
We don't know yet whether there is a pickup tube
There won't be if the discharge fitting is at the bottom of the tank.
There won't be if the discharge fitting is at the bottom of the tank.
holding tank again
Good morning everybody. I did not get a chance to get to the boat last night and will attempt it tonight. I beleive that the out spout is on the bottom of the tank. verify tomorrow. Thought, if on the bottom would there be a screem of some type? As far as using the head for the last couple of years ..i haven't. This has been a project boat and basically a day sailer or dock boat.New rudder, New engine, new propane system, new stove, new lines, replaced the pressure water system, working on new interior, etc. The last item on the list "THE HEAD AND TANK" is so far the most frustrating. Will keep you informed as to what I do as I do it. (if i do it). Stay tuned for the next chapter of "the stuffed holding tank" thanks to all............bobcat
Good morning everybody. I did not get a chance to get to the boat last night and will attempt it tonight. I beleive that the out spout is on the bottom of the tank. verify tomorrow. Thought, if on the bottom would there be a screem of some type? As far as using the head for the last couple of years ..i haven't. This has been a project boat and basically a day sailer or dock boat.New rudder, New engine, new propane system, new stove, new lines, replaced the pressure water system, working on new interior, etc. The last item on the list "THE HEAD AND TANK" is so far the most frustrating. Will keep you informed as to what I do as I do it. (if i do it). Stay tuned for the next chapter of "the stuffed holding tank" thanks to all............bobcat
Peggy, how come you are always right?
Well, well, well, there is no pickup tube. Okay everyone, forget my previous very very very long post about a pickup tube. *X*X I just don't have that 6th sense like Peggy. It's no wonder that Peggy IS the headMistress. ;D
Well, well, well, there is no pickup tube. Okay everyone, forget my previous very very very long post about a pickup tube. *X*X I just don't have that 6th sense like Peggy. It's no wonder that Peggy IS the headMistress. ;D
ROFL, Randy!
Bobcat, I'm waiting with bated (baited?) breath to find out if Peggy's test of pumping while the vent line is disconnected from the tank - since liquid comes out of that, we know it isn't blocked inside the tank. If that fails to produce pumping action, I wonder why you would mess with the snake. If the discharge tube is that badly clogged that NOTHING comes out, you will probably have to open the tank to get it really clean anyway. And if there is a screen at the outlet.... no snake! Good luck, Bated breath Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Bobcat, I'm waiting with bated (baited?) breath to find out if Peggy's test of pumping while the vent line is disconnected from the tank - since liquid comes out of that, we know it isn't blocked inside the tank. If that fails to produce pumping action, I wonder why you would mess with the snake. If the discharge tube is that badly clogged that NOTHING comes out, you will probably have to open the tank to get it really clean anyway. And if there is a screen at the outlet.... no snake! Good luck, Bated breath Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
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