So, an unsolicited recommendation for a product or vendor that would be of interest to sailors is not allowed on this site? My posting was deleted. I'm disappointed. I guess the "chandlery" just can't stand the competition... :-(
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Agreed
Yeah. I always thought that the idea of a forum was an open exchange of ideas. But they never miss an opportunity to push their own and their sponsor's products and pass this off as "advice". (I still love this site though!)
Yeah. I always thought that the idea of a forum was an open exchange of ideas. But they never miss an opportunity to push their own and their sponsor's products and pass this off as "advice". (I still love this site though!)
Disagee
Didn't see Doug's origional post so I can't speak to that, but I think Phil does a fantastic job of allowing a commercial free flow of ideas and advice.
Didn't see Doug's origional post so I can't speak to that, but I think Phil does a fantastic job of allowing a commercial free flow of ideas and advice.
Disagree
I've seen plenty of commercial stuff touted here in response to legitimate questions. But in fairness to the web site, I can live with selective editing considering that we are all getting the excellent services of the site for free. It only makes sense to support those who support the web site.
I've seen plenty of commercial stuff touted here in response to legitimate questions. But in fairness to the web site, I can live with selective editing considering that we are all getting the excellent services of the site for free. It only makes sense to support those who support the web site.
Wrong
Phil encourages discussion of different products that work for folks. Check the archives & you'll plainly see that. Only posts that look like blatant ads are removed. LaDonna
Phil encourages discussion of different products that work for folks. Check the archives & you'll plainly see that. Only posts that look like blatant ads are removed. LaDonna
Agree AND disagree
I too think this is a fabulous site! Lots of great information and features and Phil is very responsive. I don't mind them pushing their chandlery items either -- that's certainly their perogative. I was simply a bit surprised to see my post disappear -- I haven't had that happen before. Maybe it was just a technical hiccup.
I too think this is a fabulous site! Lots of great information and features and Phil is very responsive. I don't mind them pushing their chandlery items either -- that's certainly their perogative. I was simply a bit surprised to see my post disappear -- I haven't had that happen before. Maybe it was just a technical hiccup.
Don't take it personal.
Doug: I would not take this personal. They have only a few rules. Mentioning that a product that works and works well is within the guidelines of the site. Here are a couple of things that are in the bylaws for the site that most of us will never read. " Please do not post any form of advertisement for commercial products, boats for sale, or used gear. We try to keep the forums as commercial-free as we can. On the other hand, we don't want to suppress information, so if someone has questions about a commercial service or product it is always OK to post a referral or URL to vendors or suppliers. If you have a boat or equipment to sell please consider our sailboat classifieds <http://www.sailboatowners.com/classified/index.tpl?fno=0> or Gear Here <http://www.sailboatowners.com/gear/index.tpl?fno=0> classified ads. We reserve the right to remove any post or reply that is off-topic, abusive, harassing, that we deem to be in poor taste or objectionable, or that violates any site policy. The decision to remove a post or reply is made at our sole discretion" Your posting of the Ozone generators would have been right in line if you would NOT have posted the link to their website (I think). Keep your input coming.
Doug: I would not take this personal. They have only a few rules. Mentioning that a product that works and works well is within the guidelines of the site. Here are a couple of things that are in the bylaws for the site that most of us will never read. " Please do not post any form of advertisement for commercial products, boats for sale, or used gear. We try to keep the forums as commercial-free as we can. On the other hand, we don't want to suppress information, so if someone has questions about a commercial service or product it is always OK to post a referral or URL to vendors or suppliers. If you have a boat or equipment to sell please consider our sailboat classifieds <http://www.sailboatowners.com/classified/index.tpl?fno=0> or Gear Here <http://www.sailboatowners.com/gear/index.tpl?fno=0> classified ads. We reserve the right to remove any post or reply that is off-topic, abusive, harassing, that we deem to be in poor taste or objectionable, or that violates any site policy. The decision to remove a post or reply is made at our sole discretion" Your posting of the Ozone generators would have been right in line if you would NOT have posted the link to their website (I think). Keep your input coming.
Censorship
We clearly post that the forums are not to be used for commercial advertisements. Almost daily we get a post or two that (1) reads like brochure copy, (2) has prices and contact info, (3) contains claims, (4) is posted by someone who doesn't include their last name, and (5) is posted by someone not familiar to us. Those are typically the posts we remove. When Doug T.'s post appeared this morning it was right on the margin. Tough call. Several of us here exchanged emails discussing whether or not it was an ad. I posted a reply to Doug T. asking him to add his last name and clarify if it was an ad. I waited a few hours and because there was no response, I deleted the post. We don't sell anything remotely like fasteners, so competition is not the issue. and those of you who follow the forums know that competitive products are discussed here every day without incident. We do our very best to allow the free exchange of ideas, resources in particular. But we do not want the forms to turn into a mindless advertising platform, providing spam in a medium other than email. In order to help us identify your post as a true recommendation and not an advertisement, please do not lift copy from the product brochure, or include unsubstantiated claims, and it would help to post your full name. Now, MJ, regarding your concern about our use of the forums: We never, _ever_ try to pass off a recommendation to our chandlery as advice. And, based on your post some time ago, always identify our connection to the site if we are posting a referral. To my knowledge, none of us use the site to 'tout' the products we sell. But, because we do not promote our products as agressively as many other web sites do, we feel it is fair to let people know what we carry. The sales from the chandlery keep the our sites alive and maintained. We believe that is a fair trade. If you take issue with how we do this please post here or otherwise let us know. We're always interested in finding a better way.
We clearly post that the forums are not to be used for commercial advertisements. Almost daily we get a post or two that (1) reads like brochure copy, (2) has prices and contact info, (3) contains claims, (4) is posted by someone who doesn't include their last name, and (5) is posted by someone not familiar to us. Those are typically the posts we remove. When Doug T.'s post appeared this morning it was right on the margin. Tough call. Several of us here exchanged emails discussing whether or not it was an ad. I posted a reply to Doug T. asking him to add his last name and clarify if it was an ad. I waited a few hours and because there was no response, I deleted the post. We don't sell anything remotely like fasteners, so competition is not the issue. and those of you who follow the forums know that competitive products are discussed here every day without incident. We do our very best to allow the free exchange of ideas, resources in particular. But we do not want the forms to turn into a mindless advertising platform, providing spam in a medium other than email. In order to help us identify your post as a true recommendation and not an advertisement, please do not lift copy from the product brochure, or include unsubstantiated claims, and it would help to post your full name. Now, MJ, regarding your concern about our use of the forums: We never, _ever_ try to pass off a recommendation to our chandlery as advice. And, based on your post some time ago, always identify our connection to the site if we are posting a referral. To my knowledge, none of us use the site to 'tout' the products we sell. But, because we do not promote our products as agressively as many other web sites do, we feel it is fair to let people know what we carry. The sales from the chandlery keep the our sites alive and maintained. We believe that is a fair trade. If you take issue with how we do this please post here or otherwise let us know. We're always interested in finding a better way.
Phil
Phil, I didn't get your message. Guess I'll have to update my profile to make sure you can get through to me. As far as name goes, the last name is "Taphouse" I'm at dougtinva@hotmail.com (Steve: It wasn't a referral to a site with ozone generators. I had just spent about an hour browsing a site on-line for materials & pieces/parts for a new shore power installation on our boat. (Insulating plastic casing materials, wire, connectors, SS threaded inserts, etc.) I was so pleased with the site and with past experiences with them that I thought I should share the joy... I guess I crossed the line. Oh well., no biggie either way.)
Phil, I didn't get your message. Guess I'll have to update my profile to make sure you can get through to me. As far as name goes, the last name is "Taphouse" I'm at dougtinva@hotmail.com (Steve: It wasn't a referral to a site with ozone generators. I had just spent about an hour browsing a site on-line for materials & pieces/parts for a new shore power installation on our boat. (Insulating plastic casing materials, wire, connectors, SS threaded inserts, etc.) I was so pleased with the site and with past experiences with them that I thought I should share the joy... I guess I crossed the line. Oh well., no biggie either way.)
My mistake!
Sorry Doug, I got this mixed up with another one! I agree with your feelings though, trying to be helpful and not treading on someones living. Close call.
Sorry Doug, I got this mixed up with another one! I agree with your feelings though, trying to be helpful and not treading on someones living. Close call.
DT
Now that we know this was not an ad, feel free to re-post. Sorry for the inconvenience; sometimes it's just hard to tell what's an ad and what isn't. Some of the spammers get very tricky about it. Of course, working from the principle that 'any publicity is good publicity,' they've already enjoyed more advertising than they could buy!
Now that we know this was not an ad, feel free to re-post. Sorry for the inconvenience; sometimes it's just hard to tell what's an ad and what isn't. Some of the spammers get very tricky about it. Of course, working from the principle that 'any publicity is good publicity,' they've already enjoyed more advertising than they could buy!
how about the ozone machine
Since we're on the subject, the new post for the ozone machine is there agian. The first thing I thought when I saw it was that it looks like an ad. Has anyone else used one of these, it seems too good to be true.
Since we're on the subject, the new post for the ozone machine is there agian. The first thing I thought when I saw it was that it looks like an ad. Has anyone else used one of these, it seems too good to be true.
Censorship
Given I run a PR and media relations biz when not flying around the country and after more than 30 years of working in journalism, public relations and advertising, I'm as keen as anyone on censorship and tromping around on the First Amendment, but while the First Amendment guarantees a free and unrestricted press along with freedom of speech, it doesn't guarantee a right to publication!! There's always an editor or publisher in there someplace!! But, let me say this. What I think is uniquely beneficial about this Forum and website in general is that it provokes a lot of freedom of expression and discussion on a number of topics important to all of us and I think the commitment to maintaining this environment and positioning is clearly apparent with the way this topic, i.e., whether an item was overly edited or censored by the webmaster and the response from same, has been discussed and handled. If we are not really careful here, someone will accuse us of being actually being "grown-ups." This kind of free and open exchange is exactly what makes this Forum valuable -- as well as fun -- and I'm glad to see everyone benefitting from it and I always hope it remains this way.
Given I run a PR and media relations biz when not flying around the country and after more than 30 years of working in journalism, public relations and advertising, I'm as keen as anyone on censorship and tromping around on the First Amendment, but while the First Amendment guarantees a free and unrestricted press along with freedom of speech, it doesn't guarantee a right to publication!! There's always an editor or publisher in there someplace!! But, let me say this. What I think is uniquely beneficial about this Forum and website in general is that it provokes a lot of freedom of expression and discussion on a number of topics important to all of us and I think the commitment to maintaining this environment and positioning is clearly apparent with the way this topic, i.e., whether an item was overly edited or censored by the webmaster and the response from same, has been discussed and handled. If we are not really careful here, someone will accuse us of being actually being "grown-ups." This kind of free and open exchange is exactly what makes this Forum valuable -- as well as fun -- and I'm glad to see everyone benefitting from it and I always hope it remains this way.
IMO, 'tis better to occasionally err
on the side of caution and delete an honest recommendation than take the "safe" route and leave spam on the board If your post WAS an honest recommendation, and you really have no connection with the company, you can re-post it. So please get over it?
on the side of caution and delete an honest recommendation than take the "safe" route and leave spam on the board If your post WAS an honest recommendation, and you really have no connection with the company, you can re-post it. So please get over it?
Keep this site the way it is!
the best part of this site is that it is almost completely free of spam and is one of the very few that is! I have always wondered how much editing Phil had to do to keep it that way. Not only do I not object to this "censorship", i think it's appropriate here. if this site gets full of spam I will read it as much as I do the other sites like that -- i.e. NOT AT ALL! Bill Murray
the best part of this site is that it is almost completely free of spam and is one of the very few that is! I have always wondered how much editing Phil had to do to keep it that way. Not only do I not object to this "censorship", i think it's appropriate here. if this site gets full of spam I will read it as much as I do the other sites like that -- i.e. NOT AT ALL! Bill Murray
Capt Phil, permission to speak sir
It's your ship and if you feel that needed to be censored, so be it! You are doing a great job. So far the forums have avoided the bombardment of spam and the torpedoes of pop-ups (damn them). Sail on sir!
It's your ship and if you feel that needed to be censored, so be it! You are doing a great job. So far the forums have avoided the bombardment of spam and the torpedoes of pop-ups (damn them). Sail on sir!
Forum
Bob Howie hit the nail on the head. This site is distinctively different than most internet based forums. There is little distraction by those trying to get you to their web site or selling of their products. The participants are for the most part polite while still being able to disagree. Nice to be in a place without "flames or flamers". I'm not sure how Phil does it, but he has managed to provide and shepard a site made up of thoughtful "adults". A pleasure to be here. In doing so, there may be the occasional "close call". I did see the post this morning and understand why it was difficult to call. I appreciate the fact that Phil took the time to ask for a response, and discuss the question with a few others prior to removing the post. Dan Jonas
Bob Howie hit the nail on the head. This site is distinctively different than most internet based forums. There is little distraction by those trying to get you to their web site or selling of their products. The participants are for the most part polite while still being able to disagree. Nice to be in a place without "flames or flamers". I'm not sure how Phil does it, but he has managed to provide and shepard a site made up of thoughtful "adults". A pleasure to be here. In doing so, there may be the occasional "close call". I did see the post this morning and understand why it was difficult to call. I appreciate the fact that Phil took the time to ask for a response, and discuss the question with a few others prior to removing the post. Dan Jonas
I've used Ozone machines for several years
and I honestly think they are the "next best things to man-made miracles" for keeping the house free of unpleasant odors, mold (a REALLY BIG problem in South TX), germs, etc. However, after reading the literature, I would never use one in as confined a space as an "average" boat. The smallest one I had cost about $350 and was designed to service an average hotel-sized room (that is several times the volume of my O'27. The manufacturer (OK Phil, I won't mention the name) warns against using it in too small an area. Excessive ozone, which is an unstable molecule made of 3 oxygen atoms, can act like bleach or muriatic acid and break=down almost any organic compound (that may include wood and petrolium derivatives like plastics, etc.). They are great in the right place, but not in a small boat. My 2 cents worth. Jim C "Dream Chaser"
and I honestly think they are the "next best things to man-made miracles" for keeping the house free of unpleasant odors, mold (a REALLY BIG problem in South TX), germs, etc. However, after reading the literature, I would never use one in as confined a space as an "average" boat. The smallest one I had cost about $350 and was designed to service an average hotel-sized room (that is several times the volume of my O'27. The manufacturer (OK Phil, I won't mention the name) warns against using it in too small an area. Excessive ozone, which is an unstable molecule made of 3 oxygen atoms, can act like bleach or muriatic acid and break=down almost any organic compound (that may include wood and petrolium derivatives like plastics, etc.). They are great in the right place, but not in a small boat. My 2 cents worth. Jim C "Dream Chaser"
Repost (sort of)
OK, what caused this gentle uproar was simply a message that I posted that a web site that I frequently buy stuff from. Let's just say that they have an enormous collection of hardware and whatnot and I've had nothing but fabulous service so far. Link below. You can surf there or not, as you please. 'nuff said. (Except thanks again to Phil & Co for a great forum!)
OK, what caused this gentle uproar was simply a message that I posted that a web site that I frequently buy stuff from. Let's just say that they have an enormous collection of hardware and whatnot and I've had nothing but fabulous service so far. Link below. You can surf there or not, as you please. 'nuff said. (Except thanks again to Phil & Co for a great forum!)
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