Now that the brisk autumn winds are here you begin to notice a couple of different approaches to how to handle their effects: Mainly, Running with just a Genoa, running with Genoa and Main both reefed and Running. Like most cruising sailors I work with what I have, but was wondering if anyone could tell us the advantage or disadvantage to either. Especially when it comes to maintaining boat balance and weather-helm, let’s say an average of 25 knots gusting 5 7, seas manageable 1-3 feet. I know that, as with a wing we all should look at flattening and reducing the sail surfaces. I believe that North Sails recommends dropping from a #3 to a #2 genoa around 20 knots, but does anyone have any real data or experience they could share?
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Seems Simple
Paul Most of what I read on many boards is that people tend to reef their jibs first and still complain about weather helm. They do this simply because it's easier to reef a jib with roller furling. What they don't get is that heel is caused by the mainsail. We sail on SF Bay where it's windy most of the time. Our boat sails better when flatter, so we reef the main first. There are tons of books written on sail sizes for different wind conditions, so I won't repeat them here: just check out a local library or marine bookstore, browse around abit and you'll find plenty of them. Royce's Sailing Illustrated has a great diagram. Reef the main first and you'll sail much safer. Lots of the current crop of boats, including ours from 1986 (I say current, since there are so many of them still sailing) obtain most of their drive from their jibs. Try it out on your boat: find a nice day - sail on the main alone, then drop the main and sail on the jib alone. It should become obvious. Have a great fall season, fair winds, Stu
Paul Most of what I read on many boards is that people tend to reef their jibs first and still complain about weather helm. They do this simply because it's easier to reef a jib with roller furling. What they don't get is that heel is caused by the mainsail. We sail on SF Bay where it's windy most of the time. Our boat sails better when flatter, so we reef the main first. There are tons of books written on sail sizes for different wind conditions, so I won't repeat them here: just check out a local library or marine bookstore, browse around abit and you'll find plenty of them. Royce's Sailing Illustrated has a great diagram. Reef the main first and you'll sail much safer. Lots of the current crop of boats, including ours from 1986 (I say current, since there are so many of them still sailing) obtain most of their drive from their jibs. Try it out on your boat: find a nice day - sail on the main alone, then drop the main and sail on the jib alone. It should become obvious. Have a great fall season, fair winds, Stu
Reef early
Preferably at the dock. Much easier to break the reef later if needed. If the reef makes it wimpy, put out the jib. Overpowered sails will not sail better.
Preferably at the dock. Much easier to break the reef later if needed. If the reef makes it wimpy, put out the jib. Overpowered sails will not sail better.
Main first, at dock or hove to
Our order is: 1. First reef of the main. This is around 15-20 knots, depending on the point of sail. 2. Reef the 110 about 10% (we can still see the second set of telltales. Move the fairleads forward to maintain genny sail shape. 3. Second reef of the main. 4. Reef the 110 20%. (Never been here.) Since the boat sails faster on its feet, we begin reefing at the dock, or when heel is consistently over 15%. Heaving to is so effective and relaxing that I can reef single-handed in a good blow. Try it! David Lady Lillie
Our order is: 1. First reef of the main. This is around 15-20 knots, depending on the point of sail. 2. Reef the 110 about 10% (we can still see the second set of telltales. Move the fairleads forward to maintain genny sail shape. 3. Second reef of the main. 4. Reef the 110 20%. (Never been here.) Since the boat sails faster on its feet, we begin reefing at the dock, or when heel is consistently over 15%. Heaving to is so effective and relaxing that I can reef single-handed in a good blow. Try it! David Lady Lillie
Try with your jib only
Hi Paul, Did you have the same strong winds we had yesterday? My wife and I had a good experience ... it's time for us to button-up for the winter so we had our last sail yesterday before leaving the boat at the marina for haul-out. We raised our main and 110 jib as we motored out of our cove with a light following wind, turned upwind and cleared the point into about 25 knots. Surprised the hell out of me because we drove around the lake and I didn't notice much in the way of white caps. I had the traveller all the way out for the main and still luffing with the boat heeling over everytime I tried to sheet in. We were both very nervous and it was no time for macho behavior so I told her turn on the engine and motor into the wind while I dropped the jib and mainsail. We motored into a protected area behind an island while I took the main completely off for winter storage. Then I convinced her to have a try with just the jib. We started off on a broad reach making better than 8 knots and sailing very comfortably. We turned around and headed back upwind making close to 8 knots and again staying well on her feet. We did not experience any handling difficulties. Obviously, on a small lake, we aren't dealing with any rough seas; but, this experience gave us both a lot of confidence and helped us understand how surprisingly well our boat handles with just a jib. BTW, my wife still thinks I am a novice and says she won't go out in the ocean with me, but I'll win her over someday!
Hi Paul, Did you have the same strong winds we had yesterday? My wife and I had a good experience ... it's time for us to button-up for the winter so we had our last sail yesterday before leaving the boat at the marina for haul-out. We raised our main and 110 jib as we motored out of our cove with a light following wind, turned upwind and cleared the point into about 25 knots. Surprised the hell out of me because we drove around the lake and I didn't notice much in the way of white caps. I had the traveller all the way out for the main and still luffing with the boat heeling over everytime I tried to sheet in. We were both very nervous and it was no time for macho behavior so I told her turn on the engine and motor into the wind while I dropped the jib and mainsail. We motored into a protected area behind an island while I took the main completely off for winter storage. Then I convinced her to have a try with just the jib. We started off on a broad reach making better than 8 knots and sailing very comfortably. We turned around and headed back upwind making close to 8 knots and again staying well on her feet. We did not experience any handling difficulties. Obviously, on a small lake, we aren't dealing with any rough seas; but, this experience gave us both a lot of confidence and helped us understand how surprisingly well our boat handles with just a jib. BTW, my wife still thinks I am a novice and says she won't go out in the ocean with me, but I'll win her over someday!
Sailing with a Jib Alone
Hi, I was out in the breakwater protected part of the SF bay near Point Richmond yesterday, my second day out without an instructor. We had small white caps out on the bay proper, with very strong wind gusts, and lots of capsizing smaller open boats in the channel protected by the breakwater. I reefed the main at the dock, but quickly found that when sailing close hauled, we didn't have enough power to steer, so we unfurled 60% of the Jib via the roller furling. This gave us acceptable speed and steerage, but gusts would heel us suddenly over very far. Most of my sailing experience on the bay before this has been with heavy displacement wood boats, so I found myself pretty alarmed about the quick response of a light 22' Catalina to these gusts. When a really threatening looking rain squall loomed over us, I decided to be a little more cautious and downed the sails and headed back to dock. Once back on shore, I pulled out my binoculars and watched some 25-35 foot boats to see how they handled the gusts. I spotted several with both main and jib reefed as we had, a couple of others without any reefs with their rails in the water (one looked as if their sails were in the water!). However another was sailing with the Jib alone downwind. Can you sail upwind and downwind with a Jib alone in heavy winds? Any other comments or advice for newbie sailor? -Marc
Hi, I was out in the breakwater protected part of the SF bay near Point Richmond yesterday, my second day out without an instructor. We had small white caps out on the bay proper, with very strong wind gusts, and lots of capsizing smaller open boats in the channel protected by the breakwater. I reefed the main at the dock, but quickly found that when sailing close hauled, we didn't have enough power to steer, so we unfurled 60% of the Jib via the roller furling. This gave us acceptable speed and steerage, but gusts would heel us suddenly over very far. Most of my sailing experience on the bay before this has been with heavy displacement wood boats, so I found myself pretty alarmed about the quick response of a light 22' Catalina to these gusts. When a really threatening looking rain squall loomed over us, I decided to be a little more cautious and downed the sails and headed back to dock. Once back on shore, I pulled out my binoculars and watched some 25-35 foot boats to see how they handled the gusts. I spotted several with both main and jib reefed as we had, a couple of others without any reefs with their rails in the water (one looked as if their sails were in the water!). However another was sailing with the Jib alone downwind. Can you sail upwind and downwind with a Jib alone in heavy winds? Any other comments or advice for newbie sailor? -Marc
Running at 25
In general, running with 25+ will not require a reefed main. The apparent wind speed will be well under 20 kts which should be very managable for most boats. A headsail would be used simply to balance the sail plan. Obviously different boats will use different sails plans. BTW, in your last sentence you mention " ..dropping from a #3 to a #2 genoa". I suspect that was a typo, you meant from a #2 to #3, yes?
In general, running with 25+ will not require a reefed main. The apparent wind speed will be well under 20 kts which should be very managable for most boats. A headsail would be used simply to balance the sail plan. Obviously different boats will use different sails plans. BTW, in your last sentence you mention " ..dropping from a #3 to a #2 genoa". I suspect that was a typo, you meant from a #2 to #3, yes?
Running?
Alan, I am confused about the context of your response. I suppose you are right that it is manageable to run downwind with less apparent wind when true wind is 25+. But what about when you need to turn around and head back upwind? Apparent wind is substantially greater than 25+ and without significant sail reduction, just about any small cruiser would be way overpowered, right? I took it that what Paul meant by "running" was that they were underway with sails up, not necessarily downwind. Is that what you meant, Paul? My understanding is that a boat with masthead rig will sail quite well upwind or on a reach with just a jib and no mainsail. We found this to be true. Scott
Alan, I am confused about the context of your response. I suppose you are right that it is manageable to run downwind with less apparent wind when true wind is 25+. But what about when you need to turn around and head back upwind? Apparent wind is substantially greater than 25+ and without significant sail reduction, just about any small cruiser would be way overpowered, right? I took it that what Paul meant by "running" was that they were underway with sails up, not necessarily downwind. Is that what you meant, Paul? My understanding is that a boat with masthead rig will sail quite well upwind or on a reach with just a jib and no mainsail. We found this to be true. Scott
Run Run Running...
...means sailing downwind, last I heard. "Making a run", however, is a term many cruisers use instead of "taking a trip" for instance. "Last weekend our group made a run down to Sanibel" or "how far is the run over to Catalina?"
...means sailing downwind, last I heard. "Making a run", however, is a term many cruisers use instead of "taking a trip" for instance. "Last weekend our group made a run down to Sanibel" or "how far is the run over to Catalina?"
Paul
After rereading Scott's post, I think he was talking about "running down wind". However, to turn and come back "upwind" will probably move the apparent wind over 30kts. As you turn to come back,(beating) the reef can be put in and if a headsail change is in order, it can be done before the leeward mark or a peel after the reef is in. A first reef should take 30 seconds or less to put in. If it takes longer then practice is well in order. There is no excuse for not being proficient at skills that are fundemental and necessary.
After rereading Scott's post, I think he was talking about "running down wind". However, to turn and come back "upwind" will probably move the apparent wind over 30kts. As you turn to come back,(beating) the reef can be put in and if a headsail change is in order, it can be done before the leeward mark or a peel after the reef is in. A first reef should take 30 seconds or less to put in. If it takes longer then practice is well in order. There is no excuse for not being proficient at skills that are fundemental and necessary.
THANKS GUYS
THANKS FOR ALL THE RESPONSE – Sorry about some of the confusion on the term running. #7 Scott was correct. I should have been more specific, sailing to windward or beating would have been much better choices. My apologies, but even in these answers we see the split between using just a headsail and/or reefing one or both. #1 Stu – I will definitely take your advice, go out and get more books. Since I’m sailing a masthead rig so most of my lift is coming from my headsail which should be ahead of the CLR which could still generate some serious weatherhelm, but the boat definitely wouldn’t be over powered with only one sail up. #6 Alan – yes, I should have majored in typing. Thanks for all the good input guys. I’ll get the books, do a lot of experimenting and let you know how it works out.
THANKS FOR ALL THE RESPONSE – Sorry about some of the confusion on the term running. #7 Scott was correct. I should have been more specific, sailing to windward or beating would have been much better choices. My apologies, but even in these answers we see the split between using just a headsail and/or reefing one or both. #1 Stu – I will definitely take your advice, go out and get more books. Since I’m sailing a masthead rig so most of my lift is coming from my headsail which should be ahead of the CLR which could still generate some serious weatherhelm, but the boat definitely wouldn’t be over powered with only one sail up. #6 Alan – yes, I should have majored in typing. Thanks for all the good input guys. I’ll get the books, do a lot of experimenting and let you know how it works out.
Be wary of sailing theory (and some tips)
The theory of center of effort (CE) position relative to CLR as a cause of weather helm is OK....as long as the boat is near upright. That's not always the case in heavy air, so don't rely on it 100%. If the boat heels too far (which can happen under jib along in a strong gust) the forward component of the driving force from the sails moves outboard and to leeward of the hull centerline. Since water offers more drag to the hull than air offers to the sail, the sail moves faster than the hull in a gust and the boat tries to turn upwind. The answer is to reduce heel by reducing sail area. Since the wind speed is up, you're getting a lot more power per square foot of sail than usual. Since a typical displacement hull can only use so much power, any extra just causes more heel, i.e. the boat is overpowered. By reducing sail area, reefing gets rid of the excess power. As others mentioned earlier, sail power can also be reduced by tightening the outhaul and cunningham, and there are still several other ways besides. However, reefing is secure and places less stress on the sails and rig so they'll last longer. Since the boat isn't heeled as much, less rudder angle is needed to keep it on track, so there's less drag. Less heel also means less of the hull is in the water (less "wetted surface") so drag from the water is reduced. The shape of the hull underwater is also more symmetrical at lower heel (an unbalanced shape tends to turn the boat upwind). Again, less rudder angle is needed so there is less drag. Less drag means more speed. As several people already mentioned, you can depower the mainsail by easing the traveler or mainsheet in a gust. What's less widely known is that easing sail can increase power in a beneficial way. In a gust, the apparent wind increases speed but it also moves aft. Since we trim to apparent wind, the sail becomes overtrimmed in a gust. Easing slightly corrects the trim and since the boom angle is more open, more of the sail force is directed forward instead of sideways. When done right, the boat accelerates instead of heeling as much. There is a caveat...as the boatspeed increases, the apparent wind will move forward again so you have to trim back in. Watch small boat sailors in gusty air and you'll see what I mean. To do this, your mainsheet (and traveler if you have one0 must be easy to use and adjust under load. Power without control is useless. Sorry this got so long, but I learned these concepts painstakingly over the years and they have helped me to become a more confident and proficient sailor. I hope you'll find them helpful too. Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
The theory of center of effort (CE) position relative to CLR as a cause of weather helm is OK....as long as the boat is near upright. That's not always the case in heavy air, so don't rely on it 100%. If the boat heels too far (which can happen under jib along in a strong gust) the forward component of the driving force from the sails moves outboard and to leeward of the hull centerline. Since water offers more drag to the hull than air offers to the sail, the sail moves faster than the hull in a gust and the boat tries to turn upwind. The answer is to reduce heel by reducing sail area. Since the wind speed is up, you're getting a lot more power per square foot of sail than usual. Since a typical displacement hull can only use so much power, any extra just causes more heel, i.e. the boat is overpowered. By reducing sail area, reefing gets rid of the excess power. As others mentioned earlier, sail power can also be reduced by tightening the outhaul and cunningham, and there are still several other ways besides. However, reefing is secure and places less stress on the sails and rig so they'll last longer. Since the boat isn't heeled as much, less rudder angle is needed to keep it on track, so there's less drag. Less heel also means less of the hull is in the water (less "wetted surface") so drag from the water is reduced. The shape of the hull underwater is also more symmetrical at lower heel (an unbalanced shape tends to turn the boat upwind). Again, less rudder angle is needed so there is less drag. Less drag means more speed. As several people already mentioned, you can depower the mainsail by easing the traveler or mainsheet in a gust. What's less widely known is that easing sail can increase power in a beneficial way. In a gust, the apparent wind increases speed but it also moves aft. Since we trim to apparent wind, the sail becomes overtrimmed in a gust. Easing slightly corrects the trim and since the boom angle is more open, more of the sail force is directed forward instead of sideways. When done right, the boat accelerates instead of heeling as much. There is a caveat...as the boatspeed increases, the apparent wind will move forward again so you have to trim back in. Watch small boat sailors in gusty air and you'll see what I mean. To do this, your mainsheet (and traveler if you have one0 must be easy to use and adjust under load. Power without control is useless. Sorry this got so long, but I learned these concepts painstakingly over the years and they have helped me to become a more confident and proficient sailor. I hope you'll find them helpful too. Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
masthead vs. fractional
Just wanted to add to this discussion a bit about masthead vs fractional rigs. As I understand it fractional rigs get their powr from the main while masthead rigs get their power from the jib. Based on this I sail my masthead rigged H27 with reefed main and full jib 15-20 knots and no main with full jib only 18-25 knots and seems to work out well. Really I think the best way to find whats best in your boat is to keep a log while sailing under different sails in the same (or close to same wind). I did this comparing full main with full jib, reefed main with full jib, full main only, and jib only all in similar wind conditions. It proved very helpful in determining handling characteristics of my boat under various sail and works as a great guide when checking expected wind conditions for the day. fair winds, chris
Just wanted to add to this discussion a bit about masthead vs fractional rigs. As I understand it fractional rigs get their powr from the main while masthead rigs get their power from the jib. Based on this I sail my masthead rigged H27 with reefed main and full jib 15-20 knots and no main with full jib only 18-25 knots and seems to work out well. Really I think the best way to find whats best in your boat is to keep a log while sailing under different sails in the same (or close to same wind). I did this comparing full main with full jib, reefed main with full jib, full main only, and jib only all in similar wind conditions. It proved very helpful in determining handling characteristics of my boat under various sail and works as a great guide when checking expected wind conditions for the day. fair winds, chris
With small boats, J-22, Impulse 21, etc., you get some control with the backstay. Otherwise, with bigger boats, it's the small trim first, traveler second, and main trim last. The larger IOR boats had a "sissy switch" or "blowout" button which dumped the main vang (Hydraulic) on either side so the driver could bail out at will. Needless to say, countless s**t was caught upon use of said "Button"!!
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