We have moved to a new marina (Pirates Cove, excellent!), but now no longer enjoy the excellent weather protection of our prior marina. When docked stern-in, our boat points due South. Returning home tonight, winds were 15 kts gusting to over 20 from the SE or SSE. To dock, we headed E parallel to the dock. Once at our slip, we tucked the port quarter next to outermost portside piling, wrapped the (port bow) line around the aft port cleat, engaged reverse, and pivoted the stern in. We managed to back in without to much drama, mainly because my wife was able to quickly move the port bow line from the aft to the forward cleat very quickly once we were halfway into the slip, and I caught the port stern line. Again, no drama, but not particularly pretty, so... Thoughts, questions, and considerations: 1. Would we have been better doing this warping maneuver with the starboard quarter? That would have kept the wind and the pivot action of the boat countering each other. However, that might have also pinned us against the downwind piling (or through to our neighbor's boat. 2. After the pivot, with the stern moving back into the slip, should we have used the line as a forward spring against a reversing engine to try to keep the boat on the windward (E) side of the slip? 3. Other ideas? Bear in mind we have a lot of windage (Hunter 456) and a crew of two. (Note, please do not suggest a bow thruster. That's a non-starter.) Thanks. Harry Bethesda, MD Hunter 456 - "Czech Mate"
- Status
on your ideas
On your post-operative ideas: 1. Probably not, because the boat would have been pinned against the piling. Additionally, the pivot action of the reversing prop wants to bring the stern to port. In this case, assuming you've now brought the bow around to the west. Unless of course, you're able to put enough stern behind aft of the piling to create enough leverage in the windage of the boat (considering most will want to ride bow-down or perpendicular to the wind) to pivot the stern in. It would happen too in these circumstances that you would be able grab port spring to keep control of the downwind movement of the stern. However, unless you're slip is at least about 22 feet wide, this probably turn into a battle with wind to not push your bow into your neighbor's slip (read, BOAT). 2. I think this is the better idea. Guesstimate how much forward port quarter spring you need to hold you off the wharf and back into the slip. The prop walk will help swing the bow and line up the ship with the slip. If the wind becomes an issue setting you to one side of your slip enough, then you may need to take active control of that spring and let the wind serve as your propulsion. To control the bow, I would already have the bow line set with your crew (wife in this case) taking in as you back. Of course this would require a bow line the length of the boat. Alternatively, use the amidships cleat as you have, but have an additional line ready to set forward. Cast off this amidships breast only once the bow line has been secured.
On your post-operative ideas: 1. Probably not, because the boat would have been pinned against the piling. Additionally, the pivot action of the reversing prop wants to bring the stern to port. In this case, assuming you've now brought the bow around to the west. Unless of course, you're able to put enough stern behind aft of the piling to create enough leverage in the windage of the boat (considering most will want to ride bow-down or perpendicular to the wind) to pivot the stern in. It would happen too in these circumstances that you would be able grab port spring to keep control of the downwind movement of the stern. However, unless you're slip is at least about 22 feet wide, this probably turn into a battle with wind to not push your bow into your neighbor's slip (read, BOAT). 2. I think this is the better idea. Guesstimate how much forward port quarter spring you need to hold you off the wharf and back into the slip. The prop walk will help swing the bow and line up the ship with the slip. If the wind becomes an issue setting you to one side of your slip enough, then you may need to take active control of that spring and let the wind serve as your propulsion. To control the bow, I would already have the bow line set with your crew (wife in this case) taking in as you back. Of course this would require a bow line the length of the boat. Alternatively, use the amidships cleat as you have, but have an additional line ready to set forward. Cast off this amidships breast only once the bow line has been secured.
If you have spinaker winches....
...I use them instead of the stern cleat. That way I can handle both the helm and the bow line around the winch and the admiral can grab the other lines as the boat pivots into the slip. I can also adjust the length of the pivot line as needed by pulling in or letting it slip out from the winch as needed. Practice in light winds also helps so it becomes routine.
...I use them instead of the stern cleat. That way I can handle both the helm and the bow line around the winch and the admiral can grab the other lines as the boat pivots into the slip. I can also adjust the length of the pivot line as needed by pulling in or letting it slip out from the winch as needed. Practice in light winds also helps so it becomes routine.
First of all,
Pirates Cove is a great marina! Have a drink at Proud Mary's or go hear Melanie Monk sing in the bar on Friday nights. Tell her we sent you. Secondly, getting a 45-footer backed into a slip in a heavy crosswind is no easy thing and you did it "without drama." You should be proud of that feat. While you, and others, have some good ideas for warping your boat into the slip stern first, why not just go in bow-first on those windy, challenging days? As a mostly single handler, I've had my battles trying to back a boat into slip when the winds are working against me. While it's certainly doable, it can be pretty stressful, particularly when you have a lot of onlookers. I've set up my slip so that I can either back into it or go in bow first, that is I've got padding on the pilings, fenders everywhere, and pre-set spring lines on all the appropriate pilings. On those cross-windy days, I go in bow first, drop a pre-set line over a winch as I pass it, and go forward to take up a dockline on the bow as the boat comes to a stop all by it self. Sometimes the easiest and safest course if to go with the flow.... You'll like Pirates Cove.
Pirates Cove is a great marina! Have a drink at Proud Mary's or go hear Melanie Monk sing in the bar on Friday nights. Tell her we sent you. Secondly, getting a 45-footer backed into a slip in a heavy crosswind is no easy thing and you did it "without drama." You should be proud of that feat. While you, and others, have some good ideas for warping your boat into the slip stern first, why not just go in bow-first on those windy, challenging days? As a mostly single handler, I've had my battles trying to back a boat into slip when the winds are working against me. While it's certainly doable, it can be pretty stressful, particularly when you have a lot of onlookers. I've set up my slip so that I can either back into it or go in bow first, that is I've got padding on the pilings, fenders everywhere, and pre-set spring lines on all the appropriate pilings. On those cross-windy days, I go in bow first, drop a pre-set line over a winch as I pass it, and go forward to take up a dockline on the bow as the boat comes to a stop all by it self. Sometimes the easiest and safest course if to go with the flow.... You'll like Pirates Cove.
Bow first not really an option
Warren, Thanks. We love it Pirates Cove, both for the atmosphere there and also the multitude of nearby destinations for anchoring. They just built new slips for bigger boats, so a group of us moved up there. We used to be at Herrington Harbour South, with full length finger piers, so we could go bow or stern first. At Pirates cove, the finger piers are very short (too short, in fact, for us to use the lifeline gates, which are relatively far forward on our center cockpit boat). I think if we went in bow first, we could not get off the boat. The winds are very commonly from the direction described (though not usually that strong), so we'll need to find a system that works reliably and without too much fuss. Harry
Warren, Thanks. We love it Pirates Cove, both for the atmosphere there and also the multitude of nearby destinations for anchoring. They just built new slips for bigger boats, so a group of us moved up there. We used to be at Herrington Harbour South, with full length finger piers, so we could go bow or stern first. At Pirates cove, the finger piers are very short (too short, in fact, for us to use the lifeline gates, which are relatively far forward on our center cockpit boat). I think if we went in bow first, we could not get off the boat. The winds are very commonly from the direction described (though not usually that strong), so we'll need to find a system that works reliably and without too much fuss. Harry
Another way, to handle short fingers...
is to replace the turnbuckles that attach the lifelines to the bow pulpit with pelican hooks. Its an easy change. Then you can go in bow first, easily drop the lifelines, and have an easy time getting on and off. I've been doing this for many years and it has worked well. Allan
is to replace the turnbuckles that attach the lifelines to the bow pulpit with pelican hooks. Its an easy change. Then you can go in bow first, easily drop the lifelines, and have an easy time getting on and off. I've been doing this for many years and it has worked well. Allan
My solution
Keep a line on the piling that you pick up on you port midships as you slowly move east and make it fast. Reverse will stop the boat and the prop walk will pull the port stern toward your finger while the midships line will control how far west you are driven. This will give time to access the port aft dock line while moving the midships line forward to the bow.
Keep a line on the piling that you pick up on you port midships as you slowly move east and make it fast. Reverse will stop the boat and the prop walk will pull the port stern toward your finger while the midships line will control how far west you are driven. This will give time to access the port aft dock line while moving the midships line forward to the bow.
I never have had to dock single handed
Nancy come aft and pick the line off the portside piling and walks it to the bow as I back into the slip. We have the breakwater on the port side so I don't need a Corral line on the starboard side of the slip. A strong south wind will try to blow me out of the slip forward but a little reverse engine can handle that. If the wind is out of the east we fend off the breakwater and if from the west we just hold on with a boat hook as we back in.
Nancy come aft and pick the line off the portside piling and walks it to the bow as I back into the slip. We have the breakwater on the port side so I don't need a Corral line on the starboard side of the slip. A strong south wind will try to blow me out of the slip forward but a little reverse engine can handle that. If the wind is out of the east we fend off the breakwater and if from the west we just hold on with a boat hook as we back in.
If you have a midships line
(breast line) rigged to a cleat or your rail or whatever is srong enough at the middle of the boat, and two fairly big fenders spread at least six feet apart with the breast line in the middle, you can get the line on a cleat, hopefully four to six feet in from the end of the dock, then power gently against the line and the boat will hug the dock while you tie up the bow and stern. If things are a bit crazy and you have to put the breast line around the piling to stop your self, you can still control the situation with the line and steering which ever way you need the stern to go to avoid hazards and pitfalls. Same deal. Once you are at the dock and stopped with a bit of power to stay where you need to, you can get a bow and stern line ashore. As someone else suggested, if your bow and stern lines are ready to throw over the cleats, set for length with loops on the ends, things are easier in the rush to get secured.
(breast line) rigged to a cleat or your rail or whatever is srong enough at the middle of the boat, and two fairly big fenders spread at least six feet apart with the breast line in the middle, you can get the line on a cleat, hopefully four to six feet in from the end of the dock, then power gently against the line and the boat will hug the dock while you tie up the bow and stern. If things are a bit crazy and you have to put the breast line around the piling to stop your self, you can still control the situation with the line and steering which ever way you need the stern to go to avoid hazards and pitfalls. Same deal. Once you are at the dock and stopped with a bit of power to stay where you need to, you can get a bow and stern line ashore. As someone else suggested, if your bow and stern lines are ready to throw over the cleats, set for length with loops on the ends, things are easier in the rush to get secured.
Awful Experience Sunday
We started out with little wind but soon had enough that I was thinking about a reef. We sailed about an hour after I was through but the wind didn't let up. I tried my usual light /no wind tactic and it went wrong. The wind caught the bow and pushed us onto some boats next to our slip. No panic but some yelling. I thought about powering off but decided that since we were only 10' from our slip and already blown against other boats that we'd just push pull into our slip. Fortunately everything happend slow speed and my great wife used the boat hook to fend off and no harm was done to any boat...my pride was killed..after being tarred and feathered. We were lucky that we didn't wait on the wind to die as it was still blowing two hours later. Instead of trying to back in I could have went in bow first but then I worry about hitting the dock. The plan was for prop walk to pull me to the starboard and the wind to blow the bow where it would follow the stern into the slip. Well a big gust from the wrong direction changed everything. And as you have probably noticed the rudder doesn't do much when you aren't moving. There are always some transient slips available and next time I'll just pull into a transient slip and wait for the wind to die. My only advice is go slow!!! If something goes wrong the chances of real damage is not that great if you are moving slowly. I did consider tying to the fuel dock (directly upwind of my slip) and drifting back into my slip. That would have worked!!! But IMHO docking a sailboat in high winds is difficult at best. Unless you are blessed with the wind coming almost directly out of the slip. At every marina that I've used there has always been some or most slips where the bows and sterns of other boats were sticking out of the slip. This makes tying to a piling or end of a finger pier difficult to do without hitting the boat in the adjacent slip.
We started out with little wind but soon had enough that I was thinking about a reef. We sailed about an hour after I was through but the wind didn't let up. I tried my usual light /no wind tactic and it went wrong. The wind caught the bow and pushed us onto some boats next to our slip. No panic but some yelling. I thought about powering off but decided that since we were only 10' from our slip and already blown against other boats that we'd just push pull into our slip. Fortunately everything happend slow speed and my great wife used the boat hook to fend off and no harm was done to any boat...my pride was killed..after being tarred and feathered. We were lucky that we didn't wait on the wind to die as it was still blowing two hours later. Instead of trying to back in I could have went in bow first but then I worry about hitting the dock. The plan was for prop walk to pull me to the starboard and the wind to blow the bow where it would follow the stern into the slip. Well a big gust from the wrong direction changed everything. And as you have probably noticed the rudder doesn't do much when you aren't moving. There are always some transient slips available and next time I'll just pull into a transient slip and wait for the wind to die. My only advice is go slow!!! If something goes wrong the chances of real damage is not that great if you are moving slowly. I did consider tying to the fuel dock (directly upwind of my slip) and drifting back into my slip. That would have worked!!! But IMHO docking a sailboat in high winds is difficult at best. Unless you are blessed with the wind coming almost directly out of the slip. At every marina that I've used there has always been some or most slips where the bows and sterns of other boats were sticking out of the slip. This makes tying to a piling or end of a finger pier difficult to do without hitting the boat in the adjacent slip.
Docking issues
You might consider setting up something like mooring whips which enable you to catch the line easily and cleat it in. We are alongside at a dock, and when we leave we leave a bow and stern line each through the loop in the line from their respective mooring whips. When we arrive back, the whip is easy to catch, we drop[ the loop over the cleat, which will tend to hold the boat in approximately the right position while we quickly cleat the bow and stern line. Then we can adjust and add the spring lines at our leisure.
You might consider setting up something like mooring whips which enable you to catch the line easily and cleat it in. We are alongside at a dock, and when we leave we leave a bow and stern line each through the loop in the line from their respective mooring whips. When we arrive back, the whip is easy to catch, we drop[ the loop over the cleat, which will tend to hold the boat in approximately the right position while we quickly cleat the bow and stern line. Then we can adjust and add the spring lines at our leisure.
Just back it in.
Please try these tips when the wind is lighter and you may be surprised at how well your boat handles given enough room and enough of a chance. First, forget about prop walk. If you want to understand what a bear prop walk really can be, try a backing full keel boat with a single aperture mounted prop and keel hung rudder or backing an inboard ski boat with no keel at all. Fin keel boats really do not suffer much from propwalk if you go easy on the throttle initially and keep moving aft. There is a little crabbing initially and it will return every time you stop and start aft again. But, it is simply not a factor once you get a little way on and as long you can start your reversing maneuver a fair distance from your slip. That said, the biggest error I see is when a skipper looks aft while the boat is in reverse but still actually moving slightly forward. They attempt to 'steer' into the slip, but the boat stern moves opposite while steered moving forward from when a vessel is steered while actually moving aft...so cries of 'prop walk' or other euphemisms erupt. Unfortunately, it is really just poor technique. If you have a cross wind, always initiate your backing maneuver with the stern into the wind. That will require you, on occasion, to go past your slip and then start backing up the fairway channel or go past the slip, turn around, re-pass the slip and then start backing. Once you are moving aft at least one knot, the rudder and keel will overcome the tendency of the wind to blow the bow off during your turn into the slip. In higher winds you will need a touch more speed, hence my suggestion to practice in lighter winds. If you misjudge (or chicken out...mea culpa...) and ramp the throttle in forward gear, you will have a touch of crabbing to account for before she starts moving aft again. A couple of do's and 'don'ts': 1. Do warn your 'deckhand' and any volunteers on the dock not to pull on the dock lines unless you ask. In trying to 'help' they will inevitably pull you into the boat in the next slip or a piling. 2. Don't put the helm hard over while reversing, the rudder will just stall, quit turning the boat and act like brake. 3. Do tie and keep a heavy line between the dock and the outer piling between the slips. This is a good emergency device and a better confidence builder. 4. Don't approach objects faster than you are willing to hit them. With practice and a little confidence, you can back in under moist conditions just like backing your Little red wagon (it really is a fair analogy, try it sometime).
Please try these tips when the wind is lighter and you may be surprised at how well your boat handles given enough room and enough of a chance. First, forget about prop walk. If you want to understand what a bear prop walk really can be, try a backing full keel boat with a single aperture mounted prop and keel hung rudder or backing an inboard ski boat with no keel at all. Fin keel boats really do not suffer much from propwalk if you go easy on the throttle initially and keep moving aft. There is a little crabbing initially and it will return every time you stop and start aft again. But, it is simply not a factor once you get a little way on and as long you can start your reversing maneuver a fair distance from your slip. That said, the biggest error I see is when a skipper looks aft while the boat is in reverse but still actually moving slightly forward. They attempt to 'steer' into the slip, but the boat stern moves opposite while steered moving forward from when a vessel is steered while actually moving aft...so cries of 'prop walk' or other euphemisms erupt. Unfortunately, it is really just poor technique. If you have a cross wind, always initiate your backing maneuver with the stern into the wind. That will require you, on occasion, to go past your slip and then start backing up the fairway channel or go past the slip, turn around, re-pass the slip and then start backing. Once you are moving aft at least one knot, the rudder and keel will overcome the tendency of the wind to blow the bow off during your turn into the slip. In higher winds you will need a touch more speed, hence my suggestion to practice in lighter winds. If you misjudge (or chicken out...mea culpa...) and ramp the throttle in forward gear, you will have a touch of crabbing to account for before she starts moving aft again. A couple of do's and 'don'ts': 1. Do warn your 'deckhand' and any volunteers on the dock not to pull on the dock lines unless you ask. In trying to 'help' they will inevitably pull you into the boat in the next slip or a piling. 2. Don't put the helm hard over while reversing, the rudder will just stall, quit turning the boat and act like brake. 3. Do tie and keep a heavy line between the dock and the outer piling between the slips. This is a good emergency device and a better confidence builder. 4. Don't approach objects faster than you are willing to hit them. With practice and a little confidence, you can back in under moist conditions just like backing your Little red wagon (it really is a fair analogy, try it sometime).
Prop Walk is Real
The difference between the fin keel is that a fin keel boat usually has a spade rudder. My rudder is hung on a skeg and has much less effect in reverse than a spade rudder. But except for prop wash turning the boat a rudder is useless unless the boat is moving. In light winds I can use a combination of propwalk to the starboard in reverse and prop wash on the rudder in forward to move the stern side to side. And as stated once moving you can put the transmission in neutral and steer backwards. But in high winds everything is much more difficult. In my boat the windage is forward and will push my bow downwind and at slow speeds the rudder or prop walk just arn't strong enough to prevent the bow from turning downwind. The forward windage works to my advantage when the wind is out of the slip as I just back upwind. Even a crosswind can be used to advantage. But I've yet found a way to back downwind in high winds without having the bow turn. I should have went into the slip bow first on Sunday!!!! I had all of the docklines set up for a stern-in docking and I was just being stuborn and stupid trying to back in with the high winds. I was tired from a long day of great sailing and had an error in judgement. My four year old granddaughter was pitching a fit and my wife was giving advice which was distracting and contributed to my error. I offered to let my wife dock the boat but she was happiest giving advice. She is a great first mate but sometimes I wish she would shut up especially when I'm tired and trying to think. Even my poor performance docking didn't ruin the day. I walked my grandaughter over to a swingset and she was her normal happy self. My wife wasn't too upset and we had a nice drive home...Sunday was a great day of sailing.
The difference between the fin keel is that a fin keel boat usually has a spade rudder. My rudder is hung on a skeg and has much less effect in reverse than a spade rudder. But except for prop wash turning the boat a rudder is useless unless the boat is moving. In light winds I can use a combination of propwalk to the starboard in reverse and prop wash on the rudder in forward to move the stern side to side. And as stated once moving you can put the transmission in neutral and steer backwards. But in high winds everything is much more difficult. In my boat the windage is forward and will push my bow downwind and at slow speeds the rudder or prop walk just arn't strong enough to prevent the bow from turning downwind. The forward windage works to my advantage when the wind is out of the slip as I just back upwind. Even a crosswind can be used to advantage. But I've yet found a way to back downwind in high winds without having the bow turn. I should have went into the slip bow first on Sunday!!!! I had all of the docklines set up for a stern-in docking and I was just being stuborn and stupid trying to back in with the high winds. I was tired from a long day of great sailing and had an error in judgement. My four year old granddaughter was pitching a fit and my wife was giving advice which was distracting and contributed to my error. I offered to let my wife dock the boat but she was happiest giving advice. She is a great first mate but sometimes I wish she would shut up especially when I'm tired and trying to think. Even my poor performance docking didn't ruin the day. I walked my grandaughter over to a swingset and she was her normal happy self. My wife wasn't too upset and we had a nice drive home...Sunday was a great day of sailing.
Prop walk seems to be relative to size of prop
With a 13 inch diameter (by 13 inch pitch) 3 blade on my Newport 30 I had quite a bit of prop walk, especially in reverse. Spade rudder, no skeg, so the boat would spin easily. The small high speed prop on my outboard has no walk at all, but I can turn the outboard in forward or reverse and it really helps turn the boat. When I was crew on a 90' Baltic ketch in Mexico, part of my job was helm while we raised sail (with the motor on to keep her pointed into the wind). That boat had a neutral or forward gear box and a variable pitch prop for forwad and reverse. The prop was about three feet in diameter, and with no pitch at all, it would walk the stern if it was in gear. Kinda fun for docking or close manoeuvers.
With a 13 inch diameter (by 13 inch pitch) 3 blade on my Newport 30 I had quite a bit of prop walk, especially in reverse. Spade rudder, no skeg, so the boat would spin easily. The small high speed prop on my outboard has no walk at all, but I can turn the outboard in forward or reverse and it really helps turn the boat. When I was crew on a 90' Baltic ketch in Mexico, part of my job was helm while we raised sail (with the motor on to keep her pointed into the wind). That boat had a neutral or forward gear box and a variable pitch prop for forwad and reverse. The prop was about three feet in diameter, and with no pitch at all, it would walk the stern if it was in gear. Kinda fun for docking or close manoeuvers.
Sounds
like you did pretty good backing her in. I though pull bow in first and have steps to get me off the bow. I have no finger docks so we step over the bow rail from my stairs. Pulling bow first affords me an easier time pulling in and it is easier to back out as I have limited obsticals (though I do have a work dock 45 feet behind me). But the main reason is that by pulling bow first I have privacy when sitting in my cockpit reading or doing whatever. No offence to my dock mates, but sometimes I don't want people looking down below at will. I might be dancing with the admiral you know! Good Luck...sounds like you and the wife have good control Greg P36-2
like you did pretty good backing her in. I though pull bow in first and have steps to get me off the bow. I have no finger docks so we step over the bow rail from my stairs. Pulling bow first affords me an easier time pulling in and it is easier to back out as I have limited obsticals (though I do have a work dock 45 feet behind me). But the main reason is that by pulling bow first I have privacy when sitting in my cockpit reading or doing whatever. No offence to my dock mates, but sometimes I don't want people looking down below at will. I might be dancing with the admiral you know! Good Luck...sounds like you and the wife have good control Greg P36-2
- Status