Don't know if you've seen the new Catalina 350 yet but I finally got to today here in Seattle. The toilet is an electric model. I couldn't tell the brand but it had a sticker saying "Newport" on it, I just wish the bowl was larger. The holding tank is in a place I've not seen before, directly behind and above the toilet which places it directly beneath the deck. It's a gravity discharge I would guess and pretty well buried behind some wall panels so it'll not be coming out without a lot of work. The hose from the toilet goes up alongside it and I'm sure it empties into the top of the tank though I couldn't see that far up in there but I'm hoping there is a loop. The tank's capacity is 25 gal, quite an improvment over the C36. Think this sounds like a good arrangement?
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Ralph Johnstone
Ouch ..............................
........ if that's an improvement over the C36, I'd hate to see how the C36 operates. Now, consider if the tank were to fill completely, that's about 208 lbs. sitting fairly high up above the head to at least raise the CG or worse (and you don't even want to think about that). The other problem, I would think, would be that the head discharge hose from the head would always have some heavy solids in it. The optimum arrangement seems to be to have the hose graded down to the holding tank so that solids are easily moved along. Thanks, but I think I prefer the more conventional designs. Regards, s/v Island Hunter
........ if that's an improvement over the C36, I'd hate to see how the C36 operates. Now, consider if the tank were to fill completely, that's about 208 lbs. sitting fairly high up above the head to at least raise the CG or worse (and you don't even want to think about that). The other problem, I would think, would be that the head discharge hose from the head would always have some heavy solids in it. The optimum arrangement seems to be to have the hose graded down to the holding tank so that solids are easily moved along. Thanks, but I think I prefer the more conventional designs. Regards, s/v Island Hunter
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Tom
I think he means the tank size of the C350 is
an improvement. The C36 only has a 17 gallon holding tank. (which in theory could be increased....but you would need a custom holding tank designed) But I like the placement of the C36 Holding tank and its relationship to the head. Actually I think it is ideal. The holding tank is as low as you can get it in the middle of the boat on the port side. And the hose from the head is only 2 1/2 feet to the tank. Also it has a slight downward slope in the hose so all liquids from head always goes to the tank. The only time I ever see backflow into the head is when the holding tank is full !
an improvement. The C36 only has a 17 gallon holding tank. (which in theory could be increased....but you would need a custom holding tank designed) But I like the placement of the C36 Holding tank and its relationship to the head. Actually I think it is ideal. The holding tank is as low as you can get it in the middle of the boat on the port side. And the hose from the head is only 2 1/2 feet to the tank. Also it has a slight downward slope in the hose so all liquids from head always goes to the tank. The only time I ever see backflow into the head is when the holding tank is full !
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Bill
Tom's right Ralph.........................
I was talking about the size of the tank. One thing about the tank bein where it is though, once the stuff goes into it, it's probably not gonna go back into the head......eeeeewwwww! In the 350 the head is to port and the galley is to starboard, the main water tank is under the forward berth. The batteries are to port, the huge cockpit locker, with probably 200 pounds of future stuff is to starboard. All in all, it seems the boat will be pretty well balanced even if it's full of crap. Now, ya start puttin humans on it and then you've got problems.
I was talking about the size of the tank. One thing about the tank bein where it is though, once the stuff goes into it, it's probably not gonna go back into the head......eeeeewwwww! In the 350 the head is to port and the galley is to starboard, the main water tank is under the forward berth. The batteries are to port, the huge cockpit locker, with probably 200 pounds of future stuff is to starboard. All in all, it seems the boat will be pretty well balanced even if it's full of crap. Now, ya start puttin humans on it and then you've got problems.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
I'm back...
Certainly sounds like an improvement on Catalina's previous tank installations...someone else told me recently that on his new Cat 40-something, they hadn't run the vent into a rail stanchion--which is a HUGE step forward! His forward tank was actually vented out the hull. Mounting the tank high enough to use gravity to dump it is a mixed blessing...The biggest advantage is that it allows the vent line to be a LOT closer to horizontal instead of vertical, which solves a lot of odor problems, but it can create at least as many problems as it solves. Yes, it eliminates a discharge pump, but it also leaves standing waste in the tank discharge hose to permeate it...and it can result in backflow into the bowl from a dirty hose if the tank is too high and the distance from the toilet requires the hose route to be too vertical. Even with a loop and a trap, unless you're willing to fill the up the tank with flush water to keep the hose clean, you're left with waste standing the line to permeate the hose. I'd have to see this installation to pass judgment on it...but neither boatbuilders nor equipment mfrs seem to have figured out yet that a toilet, hoses and tank are all components of a single integrated system...they still keep treating each part as if it has nothing to do with any other part. Newport is Wilcox-Crittenden's macerating electric toilet, btw.
Certainly sounds like an improvement on Catalina's previous tank installations...someone else told me recently that on his new Cat 40-something, they hadn't run the vent into a rail stanchion--which is a HUGE step forward! His forward tank was actually vented out the hull. Mounting the tank high enough to use gravity to dump it is a mixed blessing...The biggest advantage is that it allows the vent line to be a LOT closer to horizontal instead of vertical, which solves a lot of odor problems, but it can create at least as many problems as it solves. Yes, it eliminates a discharge pump, but it also leaves standing waste in the tank discharge hose to permeate it...and it can result in backflow into the bowl from a dirty hose if the tank is too high and the distance from the toilet requires the hose route to be too vertical. Even with a loop and a trap, unless you're willing to fill the up the tank with flush water to keep the hose clean, you're left with waste standing the line to permeate the hose. I'd have to see this installation to pass judgment on it...but neither boatbuilders nor equipment mfrs seem to have figured out yet that a toilet, hoses and tank are all components of a single integrated system...they still keep treating each part as if it has nothing to do with any other part. Newport is Wilcox-Crittenden's macerating electric toilet, btw.
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Bill
Peggie, is that toilet any good?
Peggie, the holding tank is directly behind and above the toilet and the discharge hose appears to be less than 4 feet long to the top of the tank. I couldn't see what was happening at the very top of the tank, it's behind a panel that is screwed in place and then caulked. In the operation of the electric toilet, will one cycle provide enough flow out of the toilet to pump the stuff up into the tank or will it require a second cycle to "clean out" the hose and how much water does one of those pottys use per flush anyway? I did see that there is a spare 30gal water tank under the setee directy aft of the shower which is aft of the toilet and that space could be a soultion if any problems develop down the road. Geez, maybe they should have put the holding tank there but hey, they wouldn't be Catalina if they didn't do at least one thing that didn't make sense
Peggie, the holding tank is directly behind and above the toilet and the discharge hose appears to be less than 4 feet long to the top of the tank. I couldn't see what was happening at the very top of the tank, it's behind a panel that is screwed in place and then caulked. In the operation of the electric toilet, will one cycle provide enough flow out of the toilet to pump the stuff up into the tank or will it require a second cycle to "clean out" the hose and how much water does one of those pottys use per flush anyway? I did see that there is a spare 30gal water tank under the setee directy aft of the shower which is aft of the toilet and that space could be a soultion if any problems develop down the road. Geez, maybe they should have put the holding tank there but hey, they wouldn't be Catalina if they didn't do at least one thing that didn't make sense
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Bill
Peggie, I forgot to add...............
the discharge hose is pretty much vertical up to the top of the tank.
the discharge hose is pretty much vertical up to the top of the tank.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Haven't heard much one way or the other
It's been on the market about 3 years. Link to the specs for it on the W-C website is below...I think their estimate of a pint/flush is just about as optimistic as SeaLand's--especially if it has to pump uphill. But whether it goes uphill or down, there's just no way to add any water to any bowl ahead of use and then rinse the bowl using no more than a pint of water. With the tank 4' above the toilet, I'd guess you need at least a quart, 2 with solids. Still not bad though. There really is no "good" place to put a holding tank on a sailboat. The REAL solution to the problem is laws that allow mfrs to develop treatment systems that don't cost an arm and a leg and use very little power.
It's been on the market about 3 years. Link to the specs for it on the W-C website is below...I think their estimate of a pint/flush is just about as optimistic as SeaLand's--especially if it has to pump uphill. But whether it goes uphill or down, there's just no way to add any water to any bowl ahead of use and then rinse the bowl using no more than a pint of water. With the tank 4' above the toilet, I'd guess you need at least a quart, 2 with solids. Still not bad though. There really is no "good" place to put a holding tank on a sailboat. The REAL solution to the problem is laws that allow mfrs to develop treatment systems that don't cost an arm and a leg and use very little power.
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Bill
Thanks again Peggie, I sent Wilcox an.....
e-mail asking them about the operation of their toilet in the C350's arrangement. I'll let ya know what they say.When you mentioned "no way to add water before use...." I at first thought about the hotel I stayed at in London where the bowl is dry until you flush and thought "oh no, that just won't doo!" but then I realized that you fill the bowl by pulling up on the pedal before you < well, you know and then push the pedal to flush it......please correct me if I am wrong in my assumption and then I will go drown myself cause I just placed a deposit on a C350.
e-mail asking them about the operation of their toilet in the C350's arrangement. I'll let ya know what they say.When you mentioned "no way to add water before use...." I at first thought about the hotel I stayed at in London where the bowl is dry until you flush and thought "oh no, that just won't doo!" but then I realized that you fill the bowl by pulling up on the pedal before you < well, you know and then push the pedal to flush it......please correct me if I am wrong in my assumption and then I will go drown myself cause I just placed a deposit on a C350.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
I didn't say "no way to add water..."
ahead of a flush. I DID say that there's no way to do that and still keep flush water consumption to just a pint. Since W-C didn't install the sanitation system on the boat--Catalina did--what do you expect them to tell you that isn't already answered on their website...Will it pump waste up 4'? Of course it will...ANY toilet that's working to factory specs will. Whether it should have to is an entirely different issue, one that W-C can't answer. Do you need to rinse the hose behind the flush? You should, no matter what toilet or whether the hose goes up or down. If I had ANY idea what assumption(s) you've made, I'd be better able to tell you whether to drown yourself.
ahead of a flush. I DID say that there's no way to do that and still keep flush water consumption to just a pint. Since W-C didn't install the sanitation system on the boat--Catalina did--what do you expect them to tell you that isn't already answered on their website...Will it pump waste up 4'? Of course it will...ANY toilet that's working to factory specs will. Whether it should have to is an entirely different issue, one that W-C can't answer. Do you need to rinse the hose behind the flush? You should, no matter what toilet or whether the hose goes up or down. If I had ANY idea what assumption(s) you've made, I'd be better able to tell you whether to drown yourself.
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Bill
Peggie, I understand now..............
I think what you meant was "down to a pint". I found a download on the toilet. Turns out it's their top of the line electric with a 1-1/2" outlet. The flushing and filling functions are completely separate so you can put as much water in the bowl as you want in the beginning and it will flush it all out.With the tank being 25 gals and the pumpout service doing a semi-monthly pump-out, I should be just fine. The boat also has a tank monitor as std.........guess I'll live.
I think what you meant was "down to a pint". I found a download on the toilet. Turns out it's their top of the line electric with a 1-1/2" outlet. The flushing and filling functions are completely separate so you can put as much water in the bowl as you want in the beginning and it will flush it all out.With the tank being 25 gals and the pumpout service doing a semi-monthly pump-out, I should be just fine. The boat also has a tank monitor as std.........guess I'll live.
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