After reading the activity on "Rubrail Staining" and the enormous number of ways owners are attacking the issue, I believe it is time for the factory to come up with a solution to this rubrail polution. 'Nuff's enough! Cleaning these things just ain't fun! We get enough input and sooner or later someone's going to start using something that does a lot of harm to rubrail and boat; then it will be interesting to see where Hunter stands with warranty claims. Mr. Factory, we need an explanation of the problem; a RECOMMENDED and safe SOLUTION to the problem; and a position of the builder on warranty issues arising from lack of factory direction. I hope that the factory rep attending the Southern California rendezvous next week comes armed with answers. You guys OWE IT TO US to respond to YOUR problem. I'm sure replacement of the rubrail isn't the easiest nor cheapest thing in the world. You've got people sanding, scraping, using exotic solvents and cleaners, and causing unknown future heartaches and dissatisfaction. "Step up to the plate", "Belly up to the bar", and all that good stuff. We need and expect help here!
- Status
And speaking of civility...
I'm going to make a gentle suggestion here, based on several years of observing owners requesting help from Hunter: a simple request always workes better than a demand, or taking a "you owe me" position. Jim is more likely to go to bat for us if addressed by his name, and threats of warranty claims don't often get too far. The guys who deal with warranty issues and customer service are good people who read this board and care about our problems. While there are many ways to ask for help, remember that there are also many ways the factory can respond. ph.
I'm going to make a gentle suggestion here, based on several years of observing owners requesting help from Hunter: a simple request always workes better than a demand, or taking a "you owe me" position. Jim is more likely to go to bat for us if addressed by his name, and threats of warranty claims don't often get too far. The guys who deal with warranty issues and customer service are good people who read this board and care about our problems. While there are many ways to ask for help, remember that there are also many ways the factory can respond. ph.
Rub-A Dub,Dub
We have several official channels at Hunter as you know since you called there just yesterday. This is not one of those channels. I help where I can in a voluntary, unofficial capacity. Post like yours only make me want to stop. With two fax lines, two 800 lines, a standard phone line, a web site and four e-mail addresses I think you'll find us very easy to talk to. We have addressed the issue of cleaning rub-rail, toilets, and gel coat, woodwork and all other parts of the boat repeatdly (in this site) and with owners. we have encluded most of this info in the owners manuals (another official media that is widely overlooked)and hopefully more will be included in the future. In the mean time we have seen no method of cleaning the rails that alarms us. We sent a service bullitin to our entire dealer network on Jan.8th 1997 detailing the recommended way of cleaning the rails with MaryKate MK-3832 inflatable boat cleaner using rubber gloves and lightly rubbing with a white Scotch Brite pad rinsing with fresh water and followed with Armour All for protection. Barbour Plastics the manufacturer approved this process. It was at that time encluded in the owners manual but I can't find it in the latest manuals we publish. Your dealer should have retained this info and like all metioned above is an approved source of info and like the owners manual all too often over looked by the public. I'll admit I never contacted Nissan about cleaning the tires, weather strip and trim on my car nor can I find it in the owners manual, funny those items and the cleaning of them are not addressed in the warranty either and I can't find the subject addressed in the unofficial Nissan Owners Web. JB
We have several official channels at Hunter as you know since you called there just yesterday. This is not one of those channels. I help where I can in a voluntary, unofficial capacity. Post like yours only make me want to stop. With two fax lines, two 800 lines, a standard phone line, a web site and four e-mail addresses I think you'll find us very easy to talk to. We have addressed the issue of cleaning rub-rail, toilets, and gel coat, woodwork and all other parts of the boat repeatdly (in this site) and with owners. we have encluded most of this info in the owners manuals (another official media that is widely overlooked)and hopefully more will be included in the future. In the mean time we have seen no method of cleaning the rails that alarms us. We sent a service bullitin to our entire dealer network on Jan.8th 1997 detailing the recommended way of cleaning the rails with MaryKate MK-3832 inflatable boat cleaner using rubber gloves and lightly rubbing with a white Scotch Brite pad rinsing with fresh water and followed with Armour All for protection. Barbour Plastics the manufacturer approved this process. It was at that time encluded in the owners manual but I can't find it in the latest manuals we publish. Your dealer should have retained this info and like all metioned above is an approved source of info and like the owners manual all too often over looked by the public. I'll admit I never contacted Nissan about cleaning the tires, weather strip and trim on my car nor can I find it in the owners manual, funny those items and the cleaning of them are not addressed in the warranty either and I can't find the subject addressed in the unofficial Nissan Owners Web. JB
A lesson in civility
First of all, thanks Jim for the response. I was just about to write to Phil to let him know I agreed with his response to my post when your reply was received. My apologies, I needed to count to ten and I didn't. The tone of the memo wasn't meant as a threat, although even I couldn't prove it after reading it the second time from a different point of view. It was meant to find a single, clear direction to address the problem that had "official" approval behind it so that whatever method used could be done with confidence it wasn't causing more problems than it solved. I have read the manual and was unable to attain any clear answers or direction from it. Judging from the number of responses posted, neither have others. I have also asked my dealer whether or not acetone had any long term detrimental effects on the material and they had no answer. I have been using a new "Simple Green" with Ultra Violet protector and car wax, which appears to work better than anything I've tried to date but still gives no real long term protection against the "brown spotting" of the material. You are absolutely correct that the official channels are, and have been, easily accessable. The tone of the posting is out of frustration of having spent the past year with no resolution to a problem with soot collection on the entire stern of the boat and its associated cleaning problems; and then to have the problem of constantly cleaning the rubrail to keep the boat looking as it should. Didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. Your help is not only valuable but also appreciated. Don't stop doing what your doing because of posts like mine. I'll stop; count ten; and and put myself in your shoes next time before I touch the keyboard. Sorry Jim.
First of all, thanks Jim for the response. I was just about to write to Phil to let him know I agreed with his response to my post when your reply was received. My apologies, I needed to count to ten and I didn't. The tone of the memo wasn't meant as a threat, although even I couldn't prove it after reading it the second time from a different point of view. It was meant to find a single, clear direction to address the problem that had "official" approval behind it so that whatever method used could be done with confidence it wasn't causing more problems than it solved. I have read the manual and was unable to attain any clear answers or direction from it. Judging from the number of responses posted, neither have others. I have also asked my dealer whether or not acetone had any long term detrimental effects on the material and they had no answer. I have been using a new "Simple Green" with Ultra Violet protector and car wax, which appears to work better than anything I've tried to date but still gives no real long term protection against the "brown spotting" of the material. You are absolutely correct that the official channels are, and have been, easily accessable. The tone of the posting is out of frustration of having spent the past year with no resolution to a problem with soot collection on the entire stern of the boat and its associated cleaning problems; and then to have the problem of constantly cleaning the rubrail to keep the boat looking as it should. Didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. Your help is not only valuable but also appreciated. Don't stop doing what your doing because of posts like mine. I'll stop; count ten; and and put myself in your shoes next time before I touch the keyboard. Sorry Jim.
Hey, let's gather what we've got
...from all the various sources and put it in the reference section. Lord knows plenty of folks need the data. Thanks, George, great response! ph.
...from all the various sources and put it in the reference section. Lord knows plenty of folks need the data. Thanks, George, great response! ph.
Not so fast....
I'm going to take up for George Fletcher, just a bit. His email may have been a little frank. His frustration with this problem and lack of clear direction from the factory is poorly disguised, but sincere. Let's review the events that may have led to his email: 1. On August 17th I started a thread, "Rubrail Staining on 340," which detailed my unsightly rubrail deterioration and my inability to find a solution to the problem. I asked for input from HOW participants. This thread has generated over twenty responses and spawned two other threads, which I think demonstrates the degree of frustration felt by owners on this issue. 2. In my first post, I listed five cleaners either suggested on this forum or those that common sense would have you try, used by me with no success. 3. I called the factory for a solution and was told that this particular advisor was unaware that there was a rubrail staining problem, but if there were, acetone or lacquer might be a solution. I asked to have that recommendation in writting should this damage my boat, as (having been in the paint business in a prior life) I know that these are very "hot" thinners and can cause damage if used improperly, not to mention the danger of using highly flammable solvents for general cleaning. Finally, the factory emailed me to tell me that patio furniture cleaner might do the job. 4. Another HOW paticipant in the "Rubrail" thread suggested that I past to Jim Bohart and ask for his response. I did so on August 24th and was answered on September 1st. Jim's answered that all of the aforementioned cleaners were "tried and true" and he might suggest we try "dingy cleaner" (don't have a clue to what that is). I think that fairly recaps the sequence of questions and responses. Now, without going to "Defcon 4," and remaining polite, factual and yet, as a loyal Hunter owner, wanting to get a solution to my problem, I am getting just a little frustrated, also, by the lack of concise and clear recommendations from the factory or the rubrail manufacturer of products that WILL solve the problem, not suggestions that MAY solve the problem. There is a limit to how many products one can chase around buying and trying before it gets expensive and frustrating. My lastest "beeline for a solution" is to try Helen's suggestion of MaryKate's SprayAway. To get this product in my hands, I made a trip to the local Boater's World store, without success, found another Marykate product on the shelf, called Bohemia, NY information long distance from the sales floor of the store on my cell phone, got the company phone number, contacted Marykate and had them UPS me a quart bottle of Sprayaway for $9 plus $4 shipping and handling. Ten days later (today) it arrived. So now I have $12 plus LD phone charges invested in yet another product that may (lord I hope it does --- I'm truely sick of this whole ordeal) or may not be a solution to the dirtiest rubrails in my marina and on a boat that is still in warrenty. Oh, yes, about the dealer directives. My dealer's is a pretty good guy. He works VERY hard trying to make his business go, and he hustles ALL the time. He cares about his customers. But, Mr. Organization he is not. He surely missed the Hunter dealer directive on rubrail cleaning, as he even asked me for a solution so he could try to clean up the darn things before I took delivery of the boat. That the dealers missed the directive isn't the issue. The issue is we owners, customers, would like a clear and tested solution to the problem so that we can stop chasing around trying a variety of produst and "old wives tales" that just don't get the job done. While this post is far too long, it has been made so by the number of participants with similar concerns, the lack of concrete solutions being offered by the factory representative and the general level of frustration by owners who are unable to find a definite solution for this problem. George isn't a rude customer --- he is a frustrated customer, as am I. Wynn Ferrel S/V Tranquility wferrel@earthlink.net
I'm going to take up for George Fletcher, just a bit. His email may have been a little frank. His frustration with this problem and lack of clear direction from the factory is poorly disguised, but sincere. Let's review the events that may have led to his email: 1. On August 17th I started a thread, "Rubrail Staining on 340," which detailed my unsightly rubrail deterioration and my inability to find a solution to the problem. I asked for input from HOW participants. This thread has generated over twenty responses and spawned two other threads, which I think demonstrates the degree of frustration felt by owners on this issue. 2. In my first post, I listed five cleaners either suggested on this forum or those that common sense would have you try, used by me with no success. 3. I called the factory for a solution and was told that this particular advisor was unaware that there was a rubrail staining problem, but if there were, acetone or lacquer might be a solution. I asked to have that recommendation in writting should this damage my boat, as (having been in the paint business in a prior life) I know that these are very "hot" thinners and can cause damage if used improperly, not to mention the danger of using highly flammable solvents for general cleaning. Finally, the factory emailed me to tell me that patio furniture cleaner might do the job. 4. Another HOW paticipant in the "Rubrail" thread suggested that I past to Jim Bohart and ask for his response. I did so on August 24th and was answered on September 1st. Jim's answered that all of the aforementioned cleaners were "tried and true" and he might suggest we try "dingy cleaner" (don't have a clue to what that is). I think that fairly recaps the sequence of questions and responses. Now, without going to "Defcon 4," and remaining polite, factual and yet, as a loyal Hunter owner, wanting to get a solution to my problem, I am getting just a little frustrated, also, by the lack of concise and clear recommendations from the factory or the rubrail manufacturer of products that WILL solve the problem, not suggestions that MAY solve the problem. There is a limit to how many products one can chase around buying and trying before it gets expensive and frustrating. My lastest "beeline for a solution" is to try Helen's suggestion of MaryKate's SprayAway. To get this product in my hands, I made a trip to the local Boater's World store, without success, found another Marykate product on the shelf, called Bohemia, NY information long distance from the sales floor of the store on my cell phone, got the company phone number, contacted Marykate and had them UPS me a quart bottle of Sprayaway for $9 plus $4 shipping and handling. Ten days later (today) it arrived. So now I have $12 plus LD phone charges invested in yet another product that may (lord I hope it does --- I'm truely sick of this whole ordeal) or may not be a solution to the dirtiest rubrails in my marina and on a boat that is still in warrenty. Oh, yes, about the dealer directives. My dealer's is a pretty good guy. He works VERY hard trying to make his business go, and he hustles ALL the time. He cares about his customers. But, Mr. Organization he is not. He surely missed the Hunter dealer directive on rubrail cleaning, as he even asked me for a solution so he could try to clean up the darn things before I took delivery of the boat. That the dealers missed the directive isn't the issue. The issue is we owners, customers, would like a clear and tested solution to the problem so that we can stop chasing around trying a variety of produst and "old wives tales" that just don't get the job done. While this post is far too long, it has been made so by the number of participants with similar concerns, the lack of concrete solutions being offered by the factory representative and the general level of frustration by owners who are unable to find a definite solution for this problem. George isn't a rude customer --- he is a frustrated customer, as am I. Wynn Ferrel S/V Tranquility wferrel@earthlink.net
interesting chatter
I must say, this web site is as interesting as any builder's I have visited. If I read this right, we have a factory rep, Jim, replying to a somewhat frank and frustrated customer, George, on a "seudo" unofficial basis, and in a fashion that would have me looking elsewhere rather quickly. We also have another customer, Phil, who would really like an answer from the factory to George's questions, although made more as demands out of his frustration. Regardless of the tone of the memo, whatever happened to the customer comes first? Why is George apologizing to a rather rude response on the part of Jim? I thought it rather clear that it would behoove the factory to clearly define what works on this problem and what won't; what is harmless and what will cause harm. His memo only suggests that it would make good sense to do this before any real damage is done and potential warranty issues arise. Does the manufacturer of the rubber, plastic, or whatever material approve of the use of acetone and all these other cleaners and solvents? I think that's what the guy is asking. As to Jim's reference to his Nissan I believe he would find that he actually can get recommendations on cleaning the trim and care of the tires if he actually called Nissan America's Customer Service lines. However, I also think the "Nissan" reference irrelevant, oranges are not apples, and a Nissan doesn't cost a quarter million dollars or more. I would also imagine, with the cost of marine maintenance being what it is, that the cost of replacing this rubrail might be on par to the cost of Jim's Nissan. Jim, don't take this kind of thing from a customer personally. Since it appears the timing of your response was during business hours I hope this isn't the same response someone would receive if they called all those easily available numbers mentioned. Interestingly enough, in reading from the archives and other forums, all of these owners seem very supportive of the products and Hunter in general Jim, I have worked in customer service for many years and if this kind of thing bothers you to that point perhaps it is time to circumnavigate awhile. George, maybe a short stint at Dale Carnegie but otherwise, right on! Keep it up guys, it sounds like good boats and interesting people.
I must say, this web site is as interesting as any builder's I have visited. If I read this right, we have a factory rep, Jim, replying to a somewhat frank and frustrated customer, George, on a "seudo" unofficial basis, and in a fashion that would have me looking elsewhere rather quickly. We also have another customer, Phil, who would really like an answer from the factory to George's questions, although made more as demands out of his frustration. Regardless of the tone of the memo, whatever happened to the customer comes first? Why is George apologizing to a rather rude response on the part of Jim? I thought it rather clear that it would behoove the factory to clearly define what works on this problem and what won't; what is harmless and what will cause harm. His memo only suggests that it would make good sense to do this before any real damage is done and potential warranty issues arise. Does the manufacturer of the rubber, plastic, or whatever material approve of the use of acetone and all these other cleaners and solvents? I think that's what the guy is asking. As to Jim's reference to his Nissan I believe he would find that he actually can get recommendations on cleaning the trim and care of the tires if he actually called Nissan America's Customer Service lines. However, I also think the "Nissan" reference irrelevant, oranges are not apples, and a Nissan doesn't cost a quarter million dollars or more. I would also imagine, with the cost of marine maintenance being what it is, that the cost of replacing this rubrail might be on par to the cost of Jim's Nissan. Jim, don't take this kind of thing from a customer personally. Since it appears the timing of your response was during business hours I hope this isn't the same response someone would receive if they called all those easily available numbers mentioned. Interestingly enough, in reading from the archives and other forums, all of these owners seem very supportive of the products and Hunter in general Jim, I have worked in customer service for many years and if this kind of thing bothers you to that point perhaps it is time to circumnavigate awhile. George, maybe a short stint at Dale Carnegie but otherwise, right on! Keep it up guys, it sounds like good boats and interesting people.
Not living on the west coast
It's totaly unofficial. I spend as much time working on my own or more than at Hunter. Whats normal business hours for you is not for me. I did not think my answer rude. There are a lot of autos that cost more than the boats being discussed. If I could buy a new car for the cost of a rub rail I'll open a car lot today. I gave a concise answer to manufacturers recommendations to cleaning and tried to ease the fears of those using hot cleaners like acetone (one of the most used cleaners of frp products in manufacturing) You're absolutely correct IF I would have called Nissan they would have given me info on cleaning parts. Thats the point the whole point. We would do the same. Actually I never take any of this personnally but with posts like these and the constant rub from those with seperate agends maybe it is time to circumnavigate. My humble apologies. Sincerly JB
It's totaly unofficial. I spend as much time working on my own or more than at Hunter. Whats normal business hours for you is not for me. I did not think my answer rude. There are a lot of autos that cost more than the boats being discussed. If I could buy a new car for the cost of a rub rail I'll open a car lot today. I gave a concise answer to manufacturers recommendations to cleaning and tried to ease the fears of those using hot cleaners like acetone (one of the most used cleaners of frp products in manufacturing) You're absolutely correct IF I would have called Nissan they would have given me info on cleaning parts. Thats the point the whole point. We would do the same. Actually I never take any of this personnally but with posts like these and the constant rub from those with seperate agends maybe it is time to circumnavigate. My humble apologies. Sincerly JB
High standards are my only agenda
Please believe me when I tell you that I, for one, have no other agenda. My ONLY agenda is the high quality care and upkeep of a possission I have paid a lot of hard earned money for and one of which I am VERY proud. The reason it took me 43 years between LEARNING to sail and actually owning my own boat, were my own life priorites of building a business and raising a family. I have, for me, a large personal investment in this boat and I want to take care of it. That, Mr. Bohart, is my ONLY agenda. Please do not assume otherwise. Wynn Ferrel S/V Tranquility wferrel@earthlink.net (Email address provided for anyone who would like to end this discussion "on-line" and resolve these issures "off-line in a reasonable manner. I've said all I intend to.)
Please believe me when I tell you that I, for one, have no other agenda. My ONLY agenda is the high quality care and upkeep of a possission I have paid a lot of hard earned money for and one of which I am VERY proud. The reason it took me 43 years between LEARNING to sail and actually owning my own boat, were my own life priorites of building a business and raising a family. I have, for me, a large personal investment in this boat and I want to take care of it. That, Mr. Bohart, is my ONLY agenda. Please do not assume otherwise. Wynn Ferrel S/V Tranquility wferrel@earthlink.net (Email address provided for anyone who would like to end this discussion "on-line" and resolve these issures "off-line in a reasonable manner. I've said all I intend to.)
can we all shake (virtual) hands?
I'd like to share three things for thought: 1 - EVERYONE who participates on this web site does so on their own time, including the site suppliers and those individuals whose companies have partnerships with Hunter and Hunter dealers. And while we may want them to be the definitive experts, they are really other boat owners with a lot of expertise. How fortunate we are to have such a wealth of knowledge available at our disposal, and such a willingness on the part of ALL contributors to share. There seems to be a lot more credibility when a recommendation comes from another boat owner, but we need to remember that our dealers and the factory are there to support us as well. 2 - We all share one thing in common - a desire for information related to boats and boating. We were all new to this site once, and anyone who has been monitoring this site for more than a few months has frequently seen the same questions asked repeatedly. We appreciated the tolerance shown us while we learned how to navigate the site, which forum to use for our inquiries, and how to phrase our questions to exact the information we sought. And even though there are some contributors who wish to remain anonymous, the responses they solicit from the more visible contributors on this site are no less valid - and available to anyone who accesses the information. 3 - Any contribution worded courteously is most likely to receive one or more responses. Any clarification (or apology) courteously worded needs to be accepted as sincere. I don't think any of us wants to deplete our pool of knowledge and resources. Let's value the contributors, and leave room for the possibility that every once in a while a site visitor will have had a bad day and 'meant no disrespect'. That said, hope everyone has a safe and wonderful holiday, and gets some good sailing in! /c s/v Twilight H410
I'd like to share three things for thought: 1 - EVERYONE who participates on this web site does so on their own time, including the site suppliers and those individuals whose companies have partnerships with Hunter and Hunter dealers. And while we may want them to be the definitive experts, they are really other boat owners with a lot of expertise. How fortunate we are to have such a wealth of knowledge available at our disposal, and such a willingness on the part of ALL contributors to share. There seems to be a lot more credibility when a recommendation comes from another boat owner, but we need to remember that our dealers and the factory are there to support us as well. 2 - We all share one thing in common - a desire for information related to boats and boating. We were all new to this site once, and anyone who has been monitoring this site for more than a few months has frequently seen the same questions asked repeatedly. We appreciated the tolerance shown us while we learned how to navigate the site, which forum to use for our inquiries, and how to phrase our questions to exact the information we sought. And even though there are some contributors who wish to remain anonymous, the responses they solicit from the more visible contributors on this site are no less valid - and available to anyone who accesses the information. 3 - Any contribution worded courteously is most likely to receive one or more responses. Any clarification (or apology) courteously worded needs to be accepted as sincere. I don't think any of us wants to deplete our pool of knowledge and resources. Let's value the contributors, and leave room for the possibility that every once in a while a site visitor will have had a bad day and 'meant no disrespect'. That said, hope everyone has a safe and wonderful holiday, and gets some good sailing in! /c s/v Twilight H410
No assumptions
I made no assumptions where you are concerned. My reply was not to you, unless you are (New Boater Wannabuy). You never know with a post like that who the person is or why they hide their ID? I did not assume it was you who made that post. But because of the misunderstandings,assumptions,impatience,intolerance and some hostile intent. I feel this forum is not serving the best interest of owners and Hunter Marine there are just to many misunderstandings. It seems that enough knowledge exists now among this group that my services are no longer needed. I have enjoyed it while I was here but it my formal decision to retire and close this forum. Thanks for all the support in the past I might have learned more than you all have. w When I'm ready I will post a formal note to you all. Cheers JB
I made no assumptions where you are concerned. My reply was not to you, unless you are (New Boater Wannabuy). You never know with a post like that who the person is or why they hide their ID? I did not assume it was you who made that post. But because of the misunderstandings,assumptions,impatience,intolerance and some hostile intent. I feel this forum is not serving the best interest of owners and Hunter Marine there are just to many misunderstandings. It seems that enough knowledge exists now among this group that my services are no longer needed. I have enjoyed it while I was here but it my formal decision to retire and close this forum. Thanks for all the support in the past I might have learned more than you all have. w When I'm ready I will post a formal note to you all. Cheers JB
Thanks
You stayed longer than I thought you would. I know I would of only lasted about a month.People can still call Hunter on the phone and get the same info you give. I may of not agreed with everything you said all the time but as far as I know you and Hunter was the only ones to support a BBS like they have. You don't see anyone from Catalina over on Cat. Planet. Good luck and if you get up to Seattle I would like to buy you a beer sometime.
You stayed longer than I thought you would. I know I would of only lasted about a month.People can still call Hunter on the phone and get the same info you give. I may of not agreed with everything you said all the time but as far as I know you and Hunter was the only ones to support a BBS like they have. You don't see anyone from Catalina over on Cat. Planet. Good luck and if you get up to Seattle I would like to buy you a beer sometime.
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