Help replacing the main halyard on '77 O'day 25

[wnance]

Hi,

We're up in Rochester, NY, sailing on Lake Ontario, and have a new to us O'day 25 that had been abandoned in the yard and not in the water for 5 years. After a very hard bottom paint project we are in the water and sailing. The main halyard was a wire and rope splice, and the wire was shot, very crinkley, and we couldn't get the main all the way up.

We decided to replace the main halyard, with all rope 5/16" Stay-set X from West Marine, spliced it on to the wire temporarily and tried to pull it through. It won't go through, so I'm wondering why? I thought we could run a rope only halyard no problem, but perhaps I'm wrong. We need to go up the mast to check this out, I think, but then our problem is we only have the jib halyard to work with, which is also a wire splice, and I've read to avoid using a bosun's chair on a wire splice halyard.

Anyone have any ideas? Do we have to run a wire-rope halyard on the O'day 25? At this point it appears that we aren't able to pull anything through beyond a certain size. We couldn't get the old halyard to pull through on either end, whether the wire-rope splice side, or the metal eye side, so how would we get a new wire halyard on anyway? Seems like it would have to be spliced on the boat?? Something doesn't seem right, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Wes

Thanks

 

[Joe11688]

Hi,

We're up in Rochester, NY, sailing on Lake Ontario, and have a new to us O'day 25 that had been abandoned in the yard and not in the water for 5 years. After a very hard bottom paint project we are in the water and sailing. The main halyard was a wire and rope splice, and the wire was shot, very crinkley, and we couldn't get the main all the way up.

We decided to replace the main halyard, with all rope 5/16" Stay-set X from West Marine, spliced it on to the wire temporarily and tried to pull it through. It won't go through, so I'm wondering why? I thought we could run a rope only halyard no problem, but perhaps I'm wrong. We need to go up the mast to check this out, I think, but then our problem is we only have the jib halyard to work with, which is also a wire splice, and I've read to avoid using a bosun's chair on a wire splice halyard.

Anyone have any ideas? Do we have to run a wire-rope halyard on the O'day 25? At this point it appears that we aren't able to pull anything through beyond a certain size. We couldn't get the old halyard to pull through on either end, whether the wire-rope splice side, or the metal eye side, so how would we get a new wire halyard on anyway? Seems like it would have to be spliced on the boat?? Something doesn't seem right, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Wes

Thanks

Wes,
I don't blame you for wanting to change out your halyard to all rope. I hate wire halyards myself and I'd do the same thing that you're doing right now. The problem is probably the mast sheave is too small for the halyard. In order to do this right Wes, you should take your mast down. I know, it's a P.I.T.A., but it's necessary and probably safer than trying to go up on a halyard that might break on you. Are you familiar with the mast raising rig on your boat? Do you have one? If you have the triangular plates on your stays, all you need are the bridles that hook on to the end of your boom to these plates. Before you do anything though, call up D&R Marine and talk to Rudy Nickerson about this. He will give you the advice needed, plus he has all the O'Day parts at his shop. http://www.drmarine.com/
Joe

 

[LordNelson]

i had a problem last year with a spreader bolt that failed last year. luckily i was able to get into a marina without losing the mast and the mechanic used their dock mounted yardarm that they set masts with. they hooked up a bosun chair on their yardarm to get up the mast on my oday 20. it might cost you a couple bucks, but might be worth not having the hassle of dropping the mast now that you're in the water.

 

[wnance]

Thanks for the quick reply. I think we've got more going on than the sheave being too small for the halyard, since we couldn't pull the existing wire halyard back through, either. I'll call Rudy tomorrow, thanks for the tip. I'm still wondering if we jumped the sheave... We'lll try to get it sorted out tomorrow, and I'll report back. . .

Wes

 

[Everlong 25]

Thanks for the quick reply. I think we've got more going on than the sheave being too small for the halyard, since we couldn't pull the existing wire halyard back through, either. I'll call Rudy tomorrow, thanks for the tip. I'm still wondering if we jumped the sheave... We'lll try to get it sorted out tomorrow, and I'll report back. . .

Wes

Wes, I got a new halyard from Rudy and just went direct, I use the rope halyard, which does just fine.

Chuck

 

[Joe11688]

Wes, I got a new halyard from Rudy and just went direct, I use the rope halyard, which does just fine.

Chuck

Chuck,
Rudy sells that same kind of halyard because I bought two 5/16" Sta set X halyards for my O'Day 222 just a couple of months ago. If you didn't have to replace your sheaves when you converted your halyards from rope/wire to rope, perhaps Wes won't have to replace them also. I suppose that he could run a strong thin tag line and attach the halyard to it and try to get it through the sheaves. If that doesn't work, I would take the mast down.
Joe

 

[Everlong 25]

Chuck,
Rudy sells that same kind of halyard because I bought two 5/16" Sta set X halyards for my O'Day 222 just a couple of months ago. If you didn't have to replace your sheaves when you converted your halyards from rope/wire to rope, perhaps Wes won't have to replace them also. I suppose that he could run a strong thin tag line and attach the halyard to it and try to get it through the sheaves. If that doesn't work, I would take the mast down.
Joe

Joe,

I think his best bet is to talk to Rudy....I had my mast down when I replaced the lines. As I recall, I only had a 4 to 5 foot section of wire on the rope. Easiest thing to do is attach the end of the halyard to the old halyard, after you take of the shackle. If you tape it / splice it well, you should just be able to pull it through. It's certainly worth a try...if that fails, then drop the mast.

Chuck

 

[wnance]

Wes, I got a new halyard from Rudy and just went direct, I use the rope halyard, which does just fine.

Chuck

Chuck,

How did you swap out your halyards? Were you able to pull them riight through, or did you have to do something at the sheave end to make it work? Did you have wire/rope halyards before?

Any details you can offer will really help, thanks a lot!

Wes

 

[keith Oday 25]

I had the same problem

When I replaced mine there where a two bolts or they could have been pop rivets? I can't remember its been a while. Any way they where at the top of sheave coming down from the top of the mast that interfered with the rope. It seems like the rope wouldn't even go through. I changed mine with the mast down and simply knocked those off with a chisel. I think your going to have to drop it down. Which is not so bad. Good luck..

 

[Everlong 25]

Chuck,

How did you swap out your halyards? Were you able to pull them riight through, or did you have to do something at the sheave end to make it work? Did you have wire/rope halyards before?

Any details you can offer will really help, thanks a lot!

Wes

Wes,

Yes, I attached mine to the old halyard and pulled them right through. Now, I have external halyards, not sure what you have.

Chuck

 

[Joe11688]

Wes,
If you can pull your old halyard out, all you need to do is attach a strong tag line to the end of it so that you can have something to use to pull the new halyard through. What I have always done is to use a whipping twine and make a palm and needle type whipping at the end of the new halyard. Then I use a carpet needle with the sailor's palm to get the needle through the center of the whipping, along with the end of tag line on, the Luff side of the mast. I then tie a knot to the end and sometimes put one wrap of masking tape from the halyard on to the tag line, and pull it through. If Chuck was able to get his 5/16" halyard through without messing with the mast sheaves, you may be able to do the same thing. I have internal halyards on my Z-Spar mast and boom and I've always been able to use tag lines to get new halyards and control lines through with no problem at all.
Joe

 

[wnance]

Wes,
If you can pull your old halyard out, all you need to do is attach a strong tag line to the end of it so that you can have something to use to pull the new halyard through. What I have always done is to use a whipping twine and make a palm and needle type whipping at the end of the new halyard. Then I use a carpet needle with the sailor's palm to get the needle through the center of the whipping, along with the end of tag line on, the Luff side of the mast. I then tie a knot to the end and sometimes put one wrap of masking tape from the halyard on to the tag line, and pull it through. If Chuck was able to get his 5/16" halyard through without messing with the mast sheaves, you may be able to do the same thing. I have internal halyards on my Z-Spar mast and boom and I've always been able to use tag lines to get new halyards and control lines through with no problem at all.
Joe

Thanks, Joe. We were at the boat yesterday, and just to compare I tried to pull the existing jib halyard through the sheave where the wire splices to the rope and it would not come through. So, I think I've got the same situation that Keith had, with some bolts, or rivets partially blocking the path to the sheave. We're going to drop the mast today, and that should give us what we need. We had done exactly what you suggest originally, with whipping the old and new lines together, but had no success, as the part that would jam was where the existing halyard went from wire to rope. . .

Wes

 

[Joe11688]

Thanks, Joe. We were at the boat yesterday, and just to compare I tried to pull the existing jib halyard through the sheave where the wire splices to the rope and it would not come through. So, I think I've got the same situation that Keith had, with some bolts, or rivets partially blocking the path to the sheave. We're going to drop the mast today, and that should give us what we need. We had done exactly what you suggest originally, with whipping the old and new lines together, but had no success, as the part that would jam was where the existing halyard went from wire to rope. . .

Wes

Wes,
If you have to remove the mast head by drilling out the rivets, you could later reattach it by drilling and tapping it for threads and using stainless steel machine screws to hold it back on. If you decide to go this route, try to insulate the stainless steel from the Aluminum to prevent corrosion, by using washers from a plastic milk jug, or coat the aluminum surfaces with epoxy and let it dry, as I did when I reattached my mast tabernacle. Use the super strength Lock-Tite on the screw threads when you reattach the mast head. One other thing before you take your mast down: You said that you tried to pull the wire to rope splice through. How about pulling the other end of the halyard through? Just cut the eye splice back from the end about 5" and Whip the old halyard, or burn the end and tape it tightly and attach the tag line to it. It may save you a little work if you can run it through. That 5/16" halyard should run through pretty easy if the sheaves aren't seized up. I've replaced my halyards twice on my mast. The last set of halyards that I bought were 1/2" STA-Set X. I screwed up years ago when I bought them. They worked, but not as well as the ones that I recently bought off of Rudy. What I did was use my 1/2" halyards for Gennie sheets because they were still in great condition. I just cut them to the lengths of my old Gennie sheets that came with my boat when I bought her new. The best of luck in getting it through, Wes.
Joe

 

[wnance]

Wes,
If you have to remove the mast head by drilling out the rivets, you could later reattach it by drilling and tapping it for threads and using stainless steel machine screws to hold it back on. If you decide to go this route, try to insulate the stainless steel from the Aluminum to prevent corrosion, by using washers from a plastic milk jug, or coat the aluminum surfaces with epoxy and let it dry, as I did when I reattached my mast tabernacle. Use the super strength Lock-Tite on the screw threads when you reattach the mast head. One other thing before you take your mast down: You said that you tried to pull the wire to rope splice through. How about pulling the other end of the halyard through? Just cut the eye splice back from the end about 5" and Whip the old halyard, or burn the end and tape it tightly and attach the tag line to it. It may save you a little work if you can run it through. That 5/16" halyard should run through pretty easy if the sheaves aren't seized up. I've replaced my halyards twice on my mast. The last set of halyards that I bought were 1/2" STA-Set X. I screwed up years ago when I bought them. They worked, but not as well as the ones that I recently bought off of Rudy. What I did was use my 1/2" halyards for Gennie sheets because they were still in great condition. I just cut them to the lengths of my old Gennie sheets that came with my boat when I bought her new. The best of luck in getting it through, Wes.
Joe

I think I see what you're getting at, and I believe we tried it. We cut the wire eye that the head shackle was attached to, folded the wire back on itself and whipped the new halyard line to that wire with a little tape around it. This gave us a really small cross section that we were sure would go through. It didn't.

Is that what you were suggesting, or am I missing something?

Thanks a lot for all your help!

Wes

 

[LordNelson]

i replaced my oday 20 main halyard, which was wire and rope, with an all rope halyard i got from d&r. due to the shackle on the wire end, we sewed and duck taped a 1/8 nylon line to the rope end of the halyard and pulled it through. we then disconnected the 1/8 line from the halyard and attached it to the bottom end of the new halyard and was able to pull the new halyard through without a problem. our sheaves were U shaped with a smaller groove for cable but they worked fine with the rope. (i quess some sheaves are V shaped for cable and won't work with rope.)

i wonder if it just get hung up entering the masthead. we did ours with the mast down so that i could hand feed it to get it started.

 

[Joe11688]

I think I see what you're getting at, and I believe we tried it. We cut the wire eye that the head shackle was attached to, folded the wire back on itself and whipped the new halyard line to that wire with a little tape around it. This gave us a really small cross section that we were sure would go through. It didn't.

Is that what you were suggesting, or am I missing something?

Thanks a lot for all your help!

Wes

Wes,
Yes, that's what I was getting at. So I guess the only other alternative is to take the mast down to get a good look at what is going on with the sheaves in the mast head. I think that it's worth it to make the new rope halyard work for you. Good luck.
Joe

 

[wnance]

Wes,
Yes, that's what I was getting at. So I guess the only other alternative is to take the mast down to get a good look at what is going on with the sheaves in the mast head. I think that it's worth it to make the new rope halyard work for you. Good luck.
Joe

We gave another quick try today, didn't have much time and the weather wasn't cooperating. We managed to get a small (less than 1/8") tag line through the sheave, but when we whipped the 5/16" halyard to it, it wouldn't go through, and I snapped the tag line trying.

The mast is coming down tomorrow, and we'll be replacing both the main and jib halyards while we're taking the trouble, since the jib could use replacing as well.

Should be fun! I'm sure we'll be sailing again soon- this all started because the main halyard was binding at the top and we couldn't get the main sail all the way up. . .

Thanks,

Wes

 

[Joe11688]

We gave another quick try today, didn't have much time and the weather wasn't cooperating. We managed to get a small (less than 1/8") tag line through the sheave, but when we whipped the 5/16" halyard to it, it wouldn't go through, and I snapped the tag line trying.

The mast is coming down tomorrow, and we'll be replacing both the main and jib halyards while we're taking the trouble, since the jib could use replacing as well.

Should be fun! I'm sure we'll be sailing again soon- this all started because the main halyard was binding at the top and we couldn't get the main sail all the way up. . .

Thanks,

Wes

Hey Wes,
For all you know, maybe one of the sheaves may be broken. You really won't know until you take the mast down. My sheaves were made of plastic, and they were broken. I no longer use my Jib halyard except for mast raising/lowering with my Gin Pole since I installed my CDI Furler, but this past spring I replaced the whole Jib sheave block. I had to cut the square opening in the mast a little larger to accommodate the new stainless steel block. Then I had to bend the ears on the block so that it could fit against the curvature of the mast. Even then, I didn't dare to rivet the block on, so I drilled and tapped my mast for threads and used stainless steel machine screws to hold it in. It worked out great because I was able to start all four screws and tighten them gradually until the two ears of the sheave block were tight against the rounded surface of the mast. A good Dremel Tool really came in handy for this job, and of course Lock-Tite super strength is a must for the screws in a mast. A lot of the cheap cast Aluminum alloy mast extrusions for Z Spar were made in France and they don't last. I keep replacing it as it fails on me.
Joe

 

[wnance]

Hey Wes,
For all you know, maybe one of the sheaves may be broken. You really won't know until you take the mast down. My sheaves were made of plastic, and they were broken. I no longer use my Jib halyard except for mast raising/lowering with my Gin Pole since I installed my CDI Furler, but this past spring I replaced the whole Jib sheave block. I had to cut the square opening in the mast a little larger to accommodate the new stainless steel block. Then I had to bend the ears on the block so that it could fit against the curvature of the mast. Even then, I didn't dare to rivet the block on, so I drilled and tapped my mast for threads and used stainless steel machine screws to hold it in. It worked out great because I was able to start all four screws and tighten them gradually until the two ears of the sheave block were tight against the rounded surface of the mast. A good Dremel Tool really came in handy for this job, and of course Lock-Tite super strength is a must for the screws in a mast. A lot of the cheap cast Aluminum alloy mast extrusions for Z Spar were made in France and they don't last. I keep replacing it as it fails on me.
Joe

We got a lot done yesterday! First, we dropped the mast in the slip at the marina. The slip across the walkway from us is currently vacant, so we were able to point the bow slightly to starboard, drop the mast forward, and be able to work on the top of the mast at head height over on the other dock.

We had to drill out the rivets on the cap plate, then undid the big bolt that holds the entire sheave block in. Both fore sheaves were totally seized, and one of them had a nice groove worn into it from the wire halyard on the main. We were unable to find any sheaves locally, so we popped the siezed ones out, and I sanded off the corrosion and we hit them with some lube spray, put them back in and fed our new rope halyards through. We'll need to replace the one sheave at some point, but I think it will work for now with the rope halyard.

We found some screws that would work to attach the top cap again (need to get some plastic washers to prevent steel/aluminum corrosion), repaired part of our windex, and put the mast back up.

We then went for a sail in 15+ knots on Lake Ontario, and everything worked great. It was really rewarding to see the main go all the way up this time and not get stuck! And now I feel much more confident that dropping the mast is no big deal, or if we do need to go up that we now have new 5/16 rope halyards to support us.

Talked to Rudy again at D&R, sounds like the O'day 25 sheaves are around $16 each, so not so bad.

Guys, I really want to thank all of you for your help and information, it's really encouraging to feel like you're not alone when you tackle something like this that's completely new and unknown!

Good sailing to all of you-

Wes

 

[Joe11688]

I'm so happy to hear that you're back in business Wes. Enjoy the summer and have fun!
Regards,
Joe