Help! Frozen Bolt - Elbow

[Rich Stidger]

Another idea that may help

If I have the picture of your problem correct, you have a 3-bolt flange that is attached to the block with studs into the block and nuts on the studs holding the flange.

You have successfully removed two of the studs from the block. You have also removed the nut from the third stud.

However the third stud is still threaded into the block and the flange is not moving on the last remaining stud due to corrosion.

Is this correct?

If correct, you may be having difficulty getting the PB Blaster to flow between the stud and the hole in the flange, and also into the threads of the stud that is into the block.

I would try the following:

Thread two nuts onto the end of the stud and lock them together. Use an electric impact driver to alternately tighten and loosen the stud from the block. I use a Ryobi 18V P230 for this application (see attached picture). It will provide up to about 80ft-lbs of torque and its power is variable. Often a shock torque will easily loosen a bolt that would otherwise require an extremely high static torque.

It is also possible to break a bolt or stud with a static torque where a impact torque of a much lower value will loosen it. I have removed frozen studs in a rusted boiler using this exact technique without any damage to the boiler or the stud.

We have all faced the problem that you have. I'm looking forward to your success story.

 

[AXEL]

Re: Another idea that may help

Rich, you have very accurately described my situation. Unfortunately there is no room for me to get a drill even close to the frozen bolt. In fact I had to grind down a 1/2 box wrench to get the nut off. If by chance I do snap the bolt off in the block, perhaps your suggestion may come in handy. At this time the flange is loose enough from having the other two bolts off so that I am able to get PB Blaster on both sides of the flange/bolt. I'm hopping to work it from both ends. It's rough right now coming home from work and going out there in the cold. This weekend I'll have to log in a few hours working on it. I hope to post a "success story" on Monday LoL!

 

[Rich Stidger]

Perhaps you can use an impact or hammer drill on a block of hardwood to apply sharp impacts or vibration to the flange. Not to turn it, just to vibrate it to break the corrosion.

My previous suggestion of the impact wrench on the stud itself will work (not quite as well) using extensions and universal joint attachments. You could grind down a 6-point socket like you did for the box wrench to get it to fit.

I also echo the suggestions of previous posters to use anti-seize compound when re-assembling. I use anti-seize on ANYTHING that will be subjected to heat in use.

Also, I feel that heating a bolt or nut to remove it is a last resort. The reason is that by heating it can change the temper of the metal and make it weaker. My track record with heating parts is rather poor.....

 

[Capt. Ed]

Re: Anti-Seize (High Temperature variety)

In the old days we use milk of magnesia you know like the pink stuff but white . It works on jet engines .

 

[AXEL]

Rich,
I appreciate your suggestions and will think about ways to apply them. I'm sure any boater on this forum worth his/her salt can appreciate the anguish and frustration of having to work in extremely tight quarters with limited visibility that make even the most simplest mechanical effort a monumental task when working in the boat. I’m a little hesitant using heat for the reason you've stated. Each time I heated I quenched with cold water. Two reason for that, one being I'm trying to thermal shock the parts and the other I am worried about a fire! You can bet I will be re-assembling with copious amounts of anti-seize!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Exhaust Riser Studs

Rich had some very good advice on How To. Only question I have: why bother removing the studs? If they're in there and you CAN get the nut(s) off, can you clean the studs up and just reuse them?

When we did our exhaust riser earlier this year (my 5 day job input earlier), we left the studs in place and reused them. They were not goin' anywhere!

When I installed a new alternator bracket on a friend's Ericson 32 M25 engine, his old bracket studs weren't long enough and I had to remove them to install longer ones. Pretty much wrecked the studs to get them out.

Also, a HINT: buy two replacement gaskets. You have to VERRRRY careful putting the new one one because the bottom hole on the gasket is very close to the edge of the material. It should also be ABSOLUTELY dry before you install the gasket. Use muffler sealer paste on the threads from the new riser into the flange.

 

[Hermit Scott]

My favorite part of working on an engine with seized bolts in the cold is when you slip and smash your fingers that are already frozen.

If what I am seeing here is correct...you are trying to remove a stud just for the sake of removing it so you know it's not seized in the head??? When I rebuilt my engine, the head bolts didn't come out, and I didn't try too hard to get them out. I cleaned them up and put everything back together, retorqued the head nuts to spec and was done with it.
I have to agree with the antiseize, I used half a jar reassembling the engine. I even coated the gaskets with it. Every gasket but the head gasket is sealed with antiseize, because it already has a similar substance on it when you buy it.
Before anyone comments back 'Oh NO you used anti seize, you should have used silicone, becasue my uncle Roy always did!' I used it on the recomendation of a guy that builds preformance race engines for a living.

 

[Rich Stidger]

In defense of removing a stud....

I understand and agree with the the above philosophy of "why remove a stud that just for the sake of it", but I ASSUME that the third stud in question is degraded because of corrosion and that it's threads are degraded.

If that is not true, I also would think twice about performing the difficult.

On the other hand, once the flange is off and the stud is fully exposed, it may be relatively easy to remove and install a new stud with perfect threads. Working with new hardware is always easier than fighting with old stuff. And future work with a replaced stud (and anti-seize) would always be easier. (Wouldn't it be wonderful if original manufacturer's would use anti-seize originally? Duh.) BTW, stud removers are available for broken studs with no thread left but having just a stub.

Short of jumping on a time-machine and leaping forward to the point of removal or failure thereof, there is no way I know of determining the "best" path to pursue. You take your best shot based upon your belief and experience.

 

[BobM]

I am SO not looking forward to biting this bullet myself. However, I really need to do it, just to be safe.

I had a friend who's elbow decided to clog on him in our crowded mooring area in bad weather. Lucky for him he was flying our club's burgee so a few folk saw him in trouble, put their beers down and went out to help him. He eventually snagged an empty mooring. He has much more sailing experience than I, and even rebuilt an atomic four once, but wasn't aware that the exhaust elbow clog is a common problem. He knows now!

 

[rtmccue]

Can you apply heat with a small map gas flame, This is what I did on mine, Good luck.

 

[BroadReach]

Kroil Is The Thing

Axel,

The best product to release a nut or bolt is KROIL.:dance:

Can be purchased at this link
http://www.kanolabs.com/google/

They use to sell it in gallons only.

Two cans should last a long long time.

Broadreach

 

[dvideohd]

Great stuff! I ordered - and they got my cans here fast... Truly top notch!!!

--jerry

 

[AXEL]

Hey you guys,
Lots of good ideas and encouragement especially when I need it. It was 27 degrees this morning! The situation with the bolt is; I don't need to remove it. The PB Blaster has cleaned it up and the threads look good. I will only need to remove it if I accidentally snap it off which could happen if I'm not careful. The manifold which the elbow is screwed on to is corroded to the bolt. That's my problem. Once I get the manifold off I will have another problem trying to unscrew the elbow but at least at this point I'll be off the boat and in my garage using a 6 foot extension bar LoL. RTMCCU, I have been using MAP Gas. The MAP Gas is great, it's really hot and is doing a very good job of heating things up. Tomorrow is Saturday. I'll turn the heater on in the boat early and probably spend most of the day prying on it. I'll have to do so research on KROIL.

 

[AXEL]

The good news is I got the elbow off. The bad news is it wasn't clogged. This means I have seawater getting into the block from somewhere else and I fear the worst, blown head gasket, cranked block, etc. I'll put a call into Westerbeke today and ask for advice. I went to work on the bolt Sat. morning. It was cold, 21 degrees. After several days of soaking in PB Blaster it still did not appear to have loosened up at all. I banged on it, pried with a screw driver, nothing. The last ditch effort was to hit it hard with heat. I held the Map Gas on it for about 3 - 5 minutes, go it REALLY HOT, then quickly poured cold water on it. The thermal shock did the trick, it came right off. It was probably a combination of the PB Blaster and thermal shock the finally got it off and I would recommend this procedure to anyone in the same situation. Thanks to all for their support and advice. Happy Holidays!

 

[Glenn17467]

Check your hose from the raw water pump to the heat exchanger and the inlet on the HX. My inlet to the HX was 95% blocked with salt buildup and the drain holes on the raw water pump rusted over. The pressure from the raw water pump and blocked inlet forced the sea water passed the seal and into the engine, an M25. I could not see the blockage without a mirror and discovered it by removing the HX. My mixing elbow was clean. Now more water from the exhaust than ever before and the temp stays about right with a 165 degree thermostat. You didn't mention exhaust water volume or temperature. I replaced the raw water pump rather than rebuild.

 

[AXEL]

Glen,
I replaced the Heat Exchanger a year or so ago, it should be clear. I'm getting good volume thru the exhaust and the temp. is dead on 170. I took the raw water pump off last night. The pump is totally shot, bearings, seals, everything...what a mess. I rebuilt that pump last season. Maybe it's my fault, at this point that's what I'm hopping. A new pump is around $450 which I will be ordering today. I've gotten a break with the weather, it's warmed up above freezing. My plan, put the new water pump on and do a couple of oil changes this weekend and then winterize.

 

[Rich Stidger]

The pump is totally shot, bearings, seals, everything...what a mess. I rebuilt that pump last season. Maybe it's my fault, at this point that's what I'm hopping.

IMHO I think you have located the source of the water in the engine- the pump. I can offer a couple possible causes for the rapid failure.

First, a total failure of the seals and bearings will definitely let water into the block. I assume that you replaced both bearings and both seals at rebuild. The pumps I have worked on have the following line-up on the shaft: the impeller, two back-to-back seals, a bearing, a spacer, and a second bearing.

Looking at the bearing and seal failures separately, the bearing failure can be caused by a bad seal or a defective bearing. A seal can fail due to a bad bearing that allows shaft wobble or a defective shaft that no longer has a smooth surface for the lip of the seal to ride upon. It's almost a chicken and the egg question. A shaft wobble (due to bad bearings) will also take out impellers almost as fast as you can replace them.

If you bought a Westerbeke rebuild kit, it should have had a new shaft included. If you just bought the separate bearings and seals from Westerbeke, possibly the shaft was bad and caused the seals to leak which caused the bearings to fail.

If you bought bearings from an auto or industrial supplier, you may have gotten a low-quality bearing. I have seen bearings of a given size sell for $4 and $14. The difference is quality, although they look exactly the same. I can imagine that seals have the same quality issue. Bottom line, buy only high quality parts. I think buying from the manufacturer (Westerbeke in this case) should provide top quality parts.

Having put forth these ideas, I must say that I have a Westerbeke diesel genset. The original raw pump lasted about six years, and then I rebuilt it with a Westerbeke full kit- shaft, seals, bearing, impeller, etc. This rebuilt pump failed again after THREE years showing bads seals & bearings.

I have no idea why the rebuilt pump failed so quickly. If somebody (much smarter than me) can tell me why this might have happened, I would be very grateful. I suspect that there is some other pump parameter that was defective and was either not obvious or I didn't know to check.

 

[kloudie1]

Working with a Westerbeke pump from a Tratan 37, I found that the shaft would wear fairly quickly so that the seal would drool and the bearing fits would be ruined. The water made mayonese in teh crankcase! We had the same problem with the factory rebuild kit failing too soon after rebuild. We machined a new case to accomodate a double lip seal and put a grease fitting just on the seawater side of the lip seal so it could be pumped with grease. The case was redesigned to accept better bearings. The new shaft had flame sprayed carbide applied to the flats where it slips into the engine drive gear. This was all done at no machining cost by friends, so the cost was very cheap; the pump has run now for 10 years without a drip.. Basically the parts are all mostly round and easily machined. We used the original eccentric insert and the original impeller. If you know someone in the machine shop business, they could tell you quickly if your bearing fits and shaft are OK, and can restore things to original dimensions probably for less money than the Westerbeke parts cost.

 

[AXEL]

Rich, I have no doubt the water got in thru the destroyed seals. FYI, I bought a complete rebuild kit from Westerbeke, shaft, seals, bearings, impeller, etc. I was also shocked to see the new impeller lost a vane. I can imagine the shaft wobble was quite severe. I have a Westerbeke 21. I'm wondering what the mechanism is that turns the shaft on the engine side is and if it has been affected by the wobble and water intrusion? In any case I just ordered a new pump from Hanson Marine in Mass. It should be here tomorrow. Kloudie, I'll have to take my chances with a new pump.

 

[kloudie1]

Best to ya on the new pump, Axel.. I have seen some of the newer models and they have some reliability improvements in both the bearings and seals. If you didn’t push the engine too hard while it was making mayonnaise in the crankcase, it will be fine.. The key is to flush it out well; usually two oil changes and new filters.. The engine must be run until hot between changes to get the water evaporated.. I am assuming that you’ve already done that part.. The gear that drives the pump and its bearings are probably fine since the oil/water emulsion still has a good bit of “slickity”.