Help Choosing

[BMET1]

Dear forum readers,

I am new to sailing, and desperately want to get into it. Me and my wife want to start with manageable trips to the Caribbean, then graduate to longer trips across the Atlantic. Before you ask, yes the family is fully on board wit this goal, so is not like I am dragging them along. They are happy to come along.

The question is, what brand or model should I look at? I understand this is a loaded question, so this is my criteria:

1. It must be safe and not too uncomfortable - For example, I have read full length keels are best for this, but they are expensive and not so easily found. So of course I want to compromise, but still land on the comfortable side of things.

2. It must have shallow draft, so the different ports in the Caribbean will not be a problem - This goes back to item 1. Is a fin keel a fit for me? It extends way low and I am very concerned about hitting something. Maybe my concern is overblown?

3. It must be at least 40', but 50' is best.

I looked into the Island Packet brand, but even used boats is fair condition are around $200k. Any ideas?

Thank you so much in advance.

BMET1.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Welcome to the forum!

Whole books could be written about the question you asked. There certainly are traditional arguments for full length keels for the reasons you mention. But plenty of fin keel boats have made the trips you want to make as well. As for Island Packets - they are not inexpensive but they are also high quality and well finished.

The best advice I could give you is to try some boats in charters or sailing classes and expect that the first boat you buy may not be the one you decide to cross the Atlantic with. There are a lot of personal preferences that go into picking the best design and features for you and your family, and seeing a few different boats is likely the best way to learn what those are.

 

[jssailem]

Hello @BMET1 welcome to the forum.
you ask a question that is discussed many times on this forum. As many times this question has been asked there are as many answers.

Being new to this idea and sounding ready to just get our there and do it. Check out this site. What you search for is a Bluewater Boat.http://bluewaterboats.org/

Here are many “brands” and models.

 

[jssailem]

In Florida there are boats galore to see. There is a saying “a fool and his money are soon parted”.

It is one of those old wisdoms that in Florida, in the world of boats, I think maybe true.

Perhaps you might share a bit more about your experience/background. Are you hoping for a turnkey, just plop your money down, sail away adventure. Or are you thinking save the bucks I’ll find a project and put in a bit of sweat equity and we’ll sail our diamond in the rough.

 

[shemandr]

40' to 50' boat in condition to sail across an ocean for much under 200K is going to be hard to find. You can find older boats for less money but they almost always need upgrades which run into serious money.
If the 200K scares you look into the upkeep, storage, docking costs of a boat in the 40' to 50' range. The meter will be running the entire time you own the boat.

 

[dlochner]

Welcome to the forum.

Your question in various forms comes up in sailing and cruising forums almost weekly. After reading many of these threads I have found that the number of opinions is roughly equal to 3 times the number of people who respond to the original question. Some of the opinions will be well found and some answers might be seen as a little snarky.

You share a dream with hundreds of others. To own a boat and sail off to idyllic isles and lead an adventurous life. No doubt you have spent some time watching YouTube videos, the channels worth watching are those that are down to earth and real life, Sailing Calico Skies, Ryan and Sophie Sailing, Sailing UMA (especially the early years), Adventures of an Old Sea Dog, and White Spot Pirates are channels that show both the fun and the challenges of cruising.

I'm going to take a contrarian opinion on your boat search, don't focus on a full or fin or shoal keel, don't focus on cutter, sloop, ketch rig, and at this point don't focus too much on brand or size. Focus instead on what you will be doing on the boat all of the time and what you will doing most of the time. This will determine your satisfaction more than any sailing quality.

So, what will you be doing all of the time? Living aboard. Cooking, eating, sleeping, toileting, reading, and being in a confined space with your loved ones. What will you be doing most of the time? Sitting on anchor or at a dock. These are times that will make or break your love of the cruising life style. Is the galley functional? Is there adequate storage? Are the berths comfortable? Is there space to get away from each other? What will you do during inclement weather? These and more questions can be asked. The simple question is, is the boat livable?

Perhaps you have heard the definition of cruising in a sailboat as "fixing your boat in exotic places." Being able to access and repair the multiple systems on a boat is important. How accessible is the motor? Can you access the batteries to maintain them? What the electrical systems? The fresh water systems? The fuel filters? Is the head reliable? The list goes on.

With experience these questions can be more easily answered and as always, experience is what you need most when you don't have it.

The first step in your adventure and to follow your dreams is to gain experience before making the big leap. There are lots of cruising boats scattered around the globe that are for sale, because the dream was far better than reality. Those are expensive mistakes. You can gain experience vicariously, through books, magazine, blogs, and YouTube and you can experience by doing. In and of themselves neither path is adequate. One source that I haven't mentioned yet, is MorgansCloud.com aka Affordable Adventure Cruising. It is a pay site that charges about $20 a year and chock full of accurate and useful information about sailing and cruising.

My answer to your question about which boat to buy, is to buy a learner boat. In Florida there are many, many boats for sale in the 35 -40 foot range that are eminently affordable. Build your sailing skills, learn what it is like live aboard, find what works for you and what doesn't. Then in a year or two you'll be able to make the big decision with more confidence.

Give Alan Pressman a call at Windswept Yacht Sales. He's a knowledgeable broker you can trust. Go talk to him about your plans and dreams and he will give you good guidance and help you find a suitable boat. And the best part? The seller pays his fee.

Good Luck and do follow your dreams, just do it wisely.

Windswept Yacht Sales

www.windsweptyachtsales.com

 

[dmax]

Go to a boat show and look at as many boats as possible to get an idea of what is available and what you like.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Good Morning & Welcome!
As mentioned above, skippers with questions similar to yours appear in SBO forum with regularity, and the suite of replies is consistent. You don’t mention your ages or the ages of your children, but it does appear that you may lack much experience in boating. Buying a large boat, one upwards of 50 ft LOA as one’s first boat on which to learn, is probably not a good move. Most likely it will be at least 30 yr old if “cost for size” is an important factor, which it usually is. The basic formula is—bigger boat, greater cost; newer boat, greater cost. Then there is the “big boat, big problems; small boat, small problems” adage from the real curmudgeons. (If you have never owned a boat that needed constant fixing and maintenance you might not appreciate those sentiments.)

But, as to your question. Older, family-size, yachts built for use around FL, the Bahamas, and the Caribbean in decades past include Morgans, Gulfstars, Island Packets, and Irwins, as examples. Look at the Gulfstar Sailmaster 47 or 50; Irwin 53, and Morgan 45 CC, etc. for family cruising. (BTW—you won’t see those at boat shows.) If you wish a newer boat, say 10 to 20 years old, then people often recommend the later-model Hunters, e.g. Hunter 45 CC or Passage 42, which also have a long manufacturing history in FL. Those are all monohulls. There is now a growing trend toward purchasing cruising multi-hulls (catamarans).

In any event, it’s generally a better approach, IMHO, to start by cruising locally in FL for a couple of years in a smaller yacht to learn about cruising. It actually is possible to buy a smaller starter boat of, say, 32-34 ft LOA, use it for a couple of years then trade up to a larger one. Great cruising grounds in SW Florida!! One thing you should find out is whether anyone who will be aboard is prone to seasickness and to what degree before “committing” to a long cruise (i.e., big yacht) somewhere. It can be a problem although there are potential remedies. As Lochner mentioned, there are a lot of cruising yachts for sale out there in remote locales left by folks with dreams similar to yours who flew home . Good luck!

 

[markwbird]

Look at catamarans as well. Lots of folks will tell you they are not good ocean going vessels but they have gotten better and technology allows us to avoid really bad weather for the most part. In that regard the argument for a cat is that their speed allows you to better avoid bad weather. Anyway, the space they afford is really attractive for a family. Very comfortable.

 

[JamesG161]

Two Key words...

Safety
Comfort

Jim...

 

[dLj]

@BMET1 I agree with all the above. Nobody has asked what you budget actually is. You seemed to not like $200k, but what exactly is your budget?

dj

 

[31seahorse]

Hello BMET1 and welcome,

I am happy to see that the responses you received were positive and encouraging to a degree. Another saying that comes to mind in situations like this is: " You don't know what you don't know." and that's OK to start. There are many, many skills to learn to step from the dock to handling a sailboat well and safely. Remember also that you will be responsible for the safety of your family and to some extent other people on boats near you. Add to that the responsibility to handle your boat safely and understand where you are and how to get safely to your destination. Sailing courses on the water, chartering in locations you want to visit, sailing with friends, and chartering locally in Florida, if possible, are all admirable ways to "test the waters" regarding sailing without putting buckets of money into a purchase.

As mentioned earlier it would be unusual to have the first boat you purchase be the one that fits all the interests you listed. Sailing is an adventure, a journey, and a compromise.

Best Wishes and stay safe.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Actually, the most expeditious way to search for a boat is to go to yachtworld.com. Put in your filters price/cost & size. Say, a 45-50 ft yacht at, say, $150,000 or less, then search. You’ll see the ages and models of available yachts that fall into that range. (BTW. Yacht sales have skyrocketed this year since COVID; so “inventories” are reportedly low.) From that list, you might start looking for the specific features you wish.

 

[BMET1]

Thank you everyone for the kind replies!

After reading through the responses, I realize that this is a more complex subject that I anticipated. Here is a bit more info:

1. Budget - I understand boats == money pits, and I am somewhat prepared for this. We would like a used boat no matter the type i.e. mono hull, catamaran, trimaran, they all have their appeal. The mono hulls seem to be the most affordable.

With that said, when I look around Yacht World, there are several types and budgets. I was hoping to get something around $60K and do some repairs, such as rigging, sails, hull touch ups, and such. This will push the total price into the $80-100k range.

Is this expectation reasonable? I read a post saying that $200k is a a good price, but that would be way outside my budget.

2. Use - I want comfort and safety most of all. I want to start sailing to different Caribbean islands, then move into bigger trips if comfortable. We would like the boat to have a galley, water tank, and a bathroom to accommodate these type of trips. The desire for comfort is one of the appeals of full keels, but I also see it as a safety thing since you are less likely to hit something in a shallow harbor. Do you think my reservations over deep keels are overblown?

3. Rig - I am not picky as to the type of rig. They all have their uses and you just have to learn it. I wouldn't turn down a perfect boat because the sail configuration is not the one I wanted. If it is a Ketch sails are more manageable, but there is more rigging to manage and maintain. On the other hand, a sloop has less rigging (as far as I know) but then the sails are more of a handful. There is not wining here as far as I can tell.

Some of you have pointed out that is best to start with a cheaper boat and learn from it, and I am open to that. But with my concerns over deep draft boats, what would be your thoughts? I wanted to jump on a Beneteau because there are many of them, but I figured there could be better alternatives. I just don't want to end up with something that doesn't serve the purpose.

Also, me and my wife are in our mid thirties and have three younger kids. We are well traveled, both of us prior military, and my civilian job has taken me all over. In fact, the wife did a tour to several small pacific islands and she is very fond of those memories. Because of those experiences, we want our kids to travel as they grow up. In our view, exposing them to different travels and cultures is part of a good education. It is just what we want, but I would be lying if the YouTube videos didn't play part in our decision.

Thank you!

BMET1

 

[jssailem]

Take a look at the morganscloud website mentioned by Dave. They recently looked at buying a boat to begin cruising for a couple. There search and planning would be helpful in your quest. They have a bit of free stuff.

 

[quadrille38]

So you are new to sailing. I’d go by the adage of try it before you buy it. Meaning, if you have not sailed before and don’t have any experience a boat is an expensive and risky thing to experiment with. I’d suggest you try a charter rental in the Caribbean (or anywhere else for that matter) for a week or two to see if you even like the life. Perhaps also consider a few days with a captain who will teach you a few things.
The romanticized fantasy of living easy on a boat is just that, a fantasy. Boats are a lot of work and are very costly. I say this as someone who loves sailing and has owned various boats since 1980. I wouldn’t have it any other way for me.

Also keep in mind that the bigger you go in a boat everything goes up incrementally. Dockage in a marina is charged by the foot, dock lines, anchor rode, anchors, everything goes up is size and cost on a bigger boat. Just go to one of the on line boat stores and price out 1/2 inch, 5/8 inch and 1 inch dock lines.
As said above, if the cost of buying the boat is concerning you, prepare yourself for the cost of operating and maintaining it. The purchase price is one of the lower cost items in this endeavor. Eyes wide open so you make a good decision and the dream comes true for you.

 

[Kings Gambit]

... my concerns over deep draft boats, what would be your thoughts? BMET1

Many yachts that were built in FL for the FL/east coast market b/f 1992 or so were designed with shoal drafts or are centerboard models for exploring shallow waters. Morgan yachts produced several shoal-draft models. One designed for families was the Out Island 41 ketch. Roomy. Full keel w/less than 5-ft draft. 1970’s and early 1980’s models list for less than $80K. There’s a 1972 listed on Yachtworld.com in St. Augustine for $40K; but, there are others; a bit newer but higher listings, etc. Go to SailboatData.com to look up specs on all production boat models, such as draft, keel, and rigging, etc.

 

[dlochner]

With that said, when I look around Yacht World, there are several types and budgets. I was hoping to get something around $60K and do some repairs, such as rigging, sails, hull touch ups, and such. This will push the total price into the $80-100k range.

This is probably doable if you do most of the work yourself and stay out of West Marine.

The upfront costs are only the beginning. There will be ongoing maintenance and operating costs after casting off and the bigger the boat and the older the boat the greater those costs will be. And that doesn't include living costs, which will significantly higher once you leave the US. Food, water, clothing, fuel, and other boating supplies are significantly more costly in the islands.

2. Use - I want comfort and safety most of all. I want to start sailing to different Caribbean islands, then move into bigger trips if comfortable. We would like the boat to have a galley, water tank, and a bathroom to accommodate these type of trips. The desire for comfort is one of the appeals of full keels, but I also see it as a safety thing since you are less likely to hit something in a shallow harbor. Do you think my reservations over deep keels are overblown?

Yes these are the basics and all cruising boats will have them. However, the size, location, arrangement etc will vary from boat to boat. Some boats will be more comfortable for you to live on and others won't. Until you have some experience living on a boat, even for a few days, you won't necessarily know what works for you and what doesn't. Just as an example, some people will be fine with a 2 burner alcohol stove top and propane bar-b-cue, others will want a 3 burner propane range with oven and broiler. You can make some guesses now, living on board will give you more insight into your needs and your family's needs.

Draft is important especially in areas like the Bahamas and the Keys. In other areas it is less important. There are lots of folks sailing with 7' drafts in the Keys and Bahamas, however they are more restricted in their options and they need good navigation skills. When I was looking for a boat to sail to the Bahamas I looked for boats with less than 6' draft and bought one with about 5' draft.

There are many YouTubers who are making a good living. People see Delos, La Vagabonde, Sailing Uma and other popular channels and see the free and deeply discounted equipment they get as well as the six figure incomes they earn and expect to do likewise. You haven't said so, however, if that is in your plan be aware that producing videos takes money, skill, and time, both to produce the videos and to build a following that is willing to pay to watch your videos. You will need an engaging story, above average video skills, and have some value beyond showing pretty places to visit.

The success of your efforts will depend upon your preparation and realistic expectations. Follow your dreams with your eyes wide open.

 

[Kings Gambit]

The principal difference between a deep fin keel and other types is that the deep fin keel gives a yacht the best pointing ability, plus adds maneuverability. If anticipating long up-wind demands to make a course, then a deep fin keel is preferred. Long full keels strengthen the bottom, and usually protect the rudder. They allow the boat to “track” on course w/o much effort at the helm so are good generally, but do not help the boat point well. They also confer “sea kindliness”, so less fatigue for the crew. Boats are less maneuverable; more sluggish. Full keel boats generally are higher displacement so can carry greater loads than modern flat-ish bottom, fin keel boats.

Centerboards are added to shoal draft boats to confer pointing ability when needed. They are retracted when sailing off the wind, and, of course, when crossing shoal waters, such as Florida Bay. In FL, a draft 5 ft or greater is considered inconveniently deep. Many FL boats have drafts with fixed keels of 4 1/2 ft or less. Yachts with centerboards or retractable keels have drafts of only 2 ft with the board or keel up, etc.

 

[dLj]

1. Budget - I understand boats == money pits, and I am somewhat prepared for this. We would like a used boat no matter the type i.e. mono hull, catamaran, trimaran, they all have their appeal. The mono hulls seem to be the most affordable. With that said, when I look around Yacht World, there are several types and budgets. I was hoping to get something around $60K and do some repairs, such as rigging, sails, hull touch ups, and such. This will push the total price into the $80-100k range. Is this expectation reasonable? I read a post saying that $200k is a a good price, but that would be way outside my budget.

I have to ask, do you really want to work on a boat? Or do you want to sail? At my brothers marina, there is a beautiful boat a couple slips down from his boat that is just lovely. The owner bought it thinking he'd do some work on it to bring it up to snuff, planned to spend $X dollars and be ready to go in a year. 5 years later, and about 10 times $X he finally was able to drop it in the water this past summer. Now, he's got himself a sweet boat that will be lovely to sail for a number of years to come, but it took him 5 times as long and ten times as much money as he'd originally planned. And he's a pretty seasoned sailor...

In the $80 to $100k range, you might want to look at something around 40 feet. A particular boat that seems like it would fit what you are looking for is a Bristol 41.1. The center cock pit or aft cock pit could work, although I'm partial to the center cockpit - especially as you have three younger kids. You could put them in the aft cabin, that's if you can have the three of them together. If the three kids can't really be in the same cabin, you need to up your budget to go into a three cabin layout. I can't think of one right now, maybe one of the Caliber 40's has a three cabin layout. Those are also going to up your budget though in all likelyhood.

Also, me and my wife are in our mid thirties and have three younger kids. We are well traveled, both of us prior military, and my civilian job has taken me all over. In fact, the wife did a tour to several small pacific islands and she is very fond of those memories. Because of those experiences, we want our kids to travel as they grow up. In our view, exposing them to different travels and cultures is part of a good education. It is just what we want, but I would be lying if the YouTube videos didn't play part in our decision.

Others have mentioned it, but YouTube videos tend to be a bit unrealistic... Dave has given you some pointers to ones that are a bit better. I'd add in Drake Paragon to that list. As far as using YouTube to make money? That is a full time job! And you best be prepared to handle it as such if that's what you are thinking of trying.

Sailing and living on a boat is a lot of work.... There is a lot of "romance" that has been "gilding the Lilly" so to speak... I honestly think that only a small, perhaps 10% or less, of the worlds population is really suited to living on a boat. A whole lot more are suited to enjoying time on a boat, but living full time - the numbers drop off drastically. I believe the statistic is something like 90% of all people that head off to live on a boat thinking to go for years, make it about 2 years and then they are done. Can't recall where I read that, so sorry if my memory is not serving me right here...

dj