Help assessing bulkhead condition!

[Igetit]

Bought my first sailboat about a month ago, an 84 Oday 222. LOVE IT. Now that I've gotten to know most of its parts and their functions, I am concerned about the condition of the bulkhead, where the side stay chain plates are bolted to the T-braces.

An experienced sailboat owner would probably have inspected this first, but it took finding the seat cushions wet a few times, and standing water in the stove compartment to piece the puzzle together:

It appears the caulking around the sidestay chainplates above deck has been neglected to the point that in a heavy rain, significant water is leaking through the holes, dropping straight into the bulkhead. Close-up photos of the bulkhead(attached) show evidence of warping, dark stains and delamination of the plywood at both joints.

I would like to say it appears to be early in the process and the wood still seems to be strong there, but I fear that could be a negligent point of view.

So here are my questions:
1) What kind of caulk/sealant do I want to use on those chainplate seams to prevent further damage?
2) Would you continue sailing this boat and plan the repair over the Winter, or yank it from the lake now and get it done?
3) How difficult is it to replace the bulkheads, with average jigsaw and wood staining skills? Better to pay a pro to do this?

Any help appreciated!
Paul

 

[tkaser3210]

I have an '84 222 also - don't believe those are the original plates. Looks like a PO replaced them at some point. If you are definitely going to replace the bulkheads sooner or later, you might want to do some poking or even drilling to check out the integrity of the plywood. If it is solid around the plates, you can probably make it a Fall/Spring project.

 

[48dodge]

I just replaced all of my bulkheads. It was an intimidating job but really not that bad. The hardest part was carefully removing the wood trim without damaging it. After cutting them to shape you'll need to grind a slight angle on some of the edges so they'll slide into place. Finding plywood to match is probably going to be the met difficult if that's your plan. The guy I bought my ply from (really for building hulls, it had surface repairs that I had to hide) says he can't get teak ply unless he buys a huge quantity. Everyone that had it here in Charleston has shut down. Anyway, if you can run a jigsaw, do it yourself. What are those chainplates made from?

 

[Igetit]

don't believe those are the original plates

Agreed. Are the originals the same shape, or a smaller "L" bracket?

The hardest part was carefully removing the wood trim without damaging it.

Did you also have to remove the headliner, or is it feasible to swap the bulkhead leaving most of that intact? (Mine cabin interior is carpeted, I'm assuming that's original)

Finding plywood to match

Was teak the original material? And what thickness?

Also, I'd still appreciate your thoughts on sealant for the chainplates. Seems like inserting a quarter-inch layer of material between the plate and the deck would allow better adhesion of sealant around the plate. Anyone tried this?

 

[48dodge]

I just rebedded everything on my deck with butyl rubber I bought through Maine Sail. So much easier and supposed to be better than anything from a tube. Carpet is original. I replaced my liner,but the bulkheads are not attached to the hull at all. Just bolted at the bottom and the chainplates and the crosspiece is screwed into them. They probably wouldn't go anywhere if therly weren't bolted because they're wedged in pretty tight. My original chainplates were smaller L brackets made by Schaefer, I believe. Same as the 2 holding the center post to the underside of the deck. I made slightly larger versions out of SS stock. If yours are SS then they're better than original.

 

[Mich222]

I also have a 222. Looks to me that the original chain plate is still there underneath AND an aftermarket T-shaped metal piece was added by PO. In any case, there is signs of water intrusion even around the T-shaped metal. I'd remove the original chain plate/ T-shaped metal piece and determine the condition of the bulkhead around and underneath that area. I'd also use butyl tape to seal chain plates (and all deck hardware)

 

[Joe11688]

Bought my first sailboat about a month ago, an 84 Oday 222. LOVE IT. Now that I've gotten to know most of its parts and their functions, I am concerned about the condition of the bulkhead, where the side stay chain plates are bolted to the T-braces.

An experienced sailboat owner would probably have inspected this first, but it took finding the seat cushions wet a few times, and standing water in the stove compartment to piece the puzzle together:

It appears the caulking around the sidestay chainplates above deck has been neglected to the point that in a heavy rain, significant water is leaking through the holes, dropping straight into the bulkhead. Close-up photos of the bulkhead(attached) show evidence of warping, dark stains and delamination of the plywood at both joints.

I would like to say it appears to be early in the process and the wood still seems to be strong there, but I fear that could be a negligent point of view.

So here are my questions:
1) What kind of caulk/sealant do I want to use on those chainplate seams to prevent further damage?
2) Would you continue sailing this boat and plan the repair over the Winter, or yank it from the lake now and get it done?
3) How difficult is it to replace the bulkheads, with average jigsaw and wood staining skills? Better to pay a pro to do this?

Any help appreciated!
Paul

Paul,
The chainplates on the deck are like the ones that came stock on my boat, but the PO has added different hardware to the "L" brackets on that bulkhead. I would take the mast down and remove the chainplates. If the area is not delaminated under the chainplates, I would clean the area good and dry it out with a hair drier. Then I would use use some 3-M 4200 adhesive sealant caulking under the chain plates. Coat the bolts with the caulking, and install the chainplates so that they are just snug but not so tight that they squeeze the caulking right out. Wait a day or two for the caulking to set up and then come back and tighten them down good. Then you can put the mast back up.
As long as those plates in the cabin are lending support to the chainplates, I guess they're OK. Originally, there were L shaped brackets on both sides of the bulkhead attached to those bolts.
Those chainplates shouldn't leak at all because they have small welded bars on them. At least, mine never leaked. The PO probably had the chainplates out and didn't caulk them correctly, or used the wrong caulking. If you have to replace the bulkhead, you could use the old one as a pattern.

Does your O'Day 222 have a tension bar in the cabin that supports the mast from the corner post in the galley cabinet? Some of the 84s didn't have them. Here's what it looks like:
Joe

 

[peterbud]

Tension bar for 222

Paul,
The chainplates on the deck are like the ones that came stock on my boat, but the PO has added different hardware to the "L" brackets on that bulkhead. I would take the mast down and remove the chainplates. If the area is not delaminated under the chainplates, I would clean the area good and dry it out with a hair drier. Then I would use use some 3-M 4200 adhesive sealant caulking under the chain plates. Coat the bolts with the caulking, and install the chainplates so that they are just snug but not so tight that they squeeze the caulking right out. Wait a day or two for the caulking to set up and then come back and tighten them down good. Then you can put the mast back up.
As long as those plates in the cabin are lending support to the chainplates, I guess they're OK. Originally, there were L shaped brackets on both sides of the bulkhead attached to those bolts.
Those chainplates shouldn't leak at all because they have small welded bars on them. At least, mine never leaked. The PO probably had the chainplates out and didn't caulk them correctly, or used the wrong caulking. If you have to replace the bulkhead, you could use the old one as a pattern.

Does your O'Day 222 have a tension bar in the cabin that supports the mast from the corner post in the galley cabinet? Some of the 84s didn't have them. Here's what it looks like:
Joe

Joe, my 84 222 does not have the tension bar. When did they make the change? What is the issue with not having it?

 

[Igetit]

My boat does not have the tension bar in the cabin, but it seems to confirm the suspicion that, when I replace the bulkhead, I should at least put some temporary bracing in place to support the upper deck.

I found the thread on butyl tape, and am sold on the approach of counter-sinking the chain plate mounting holes, wrapping the screws in a cone of butyl, and rebedding most of everything else on deck using the same procedure. Wish I had known about it when mounting my new bimini top a couple weeks ago.

My boat ownership experience has quickly turned into a boat RESTORATION experience, but I think it will be worth all the trouble in the end. Just trying to decide which type of plywood to use (marine grade or no), and whether to include replacing the carpeting/headliner at the same time. Also hoping I can get all the cabinetry back in place successfully afterward.

The responses to my thread so far have been VERY helpful though, I really appreciate all you guys' feedback on this.

Also Joe, the pic inside your cabin reveals some very attractive cushions. I'm looking for something just like that, but having trouble finding a local source to reupholster them. Who did yours, and do you mind disclosing the ballpark cost? At the risk of sounding like a girl, they really update the whole interior and provide a nice contrast to the wood trim.

 

[Joe11688]

My boat does not have the tension bar in the cabin, but it seems to confirm the suspicion that, when I replace the bulkhead, I should at least put some temporary bracing in place to support the upper deck.

I found the thread on butyl tape, and am sold on the approach of counter-sinking the chain plate mounting holes, wrapping the screws in a cone of butyl, and rebedding most of everything else on deck using the same procedure. Wish I had known about it when mounting my new bimini top a couple weeks ago.

My boat ownership experience has quickly turned into a boat RESTORATION experience, but I think it will be worth all the trouble in the end. Just trying to decide which type of plywood to use (marine grade or no), and whether to include replacing the carpeting/headliner at the same time. Also hoping I can get all the cabinetry back in place successfully afterward.

The responses to my thread so far have been VERY helpful though, I really appreciate all you guys' feedback on this.

Also Joe, the pic inside your cabin reveals some very attractive cushions. I'm looking for something just like that, but having trouble finding a local source to reupholster them. Who did yours, and do you mind disclosing the ballpark cost? At the risk of sounding like a girl, they really update the whole interior and provide a nice contrast to the wood trim.

I just took a closer at the hardware that the PO installed on the bulkhead. It looks like he just bolted these plates over the existing L shaped brackets. If this is so, these plates won't keep the L brackets from cracking at the bend in the bracket. This is what happened to my Starboard L bracket many years ago. I wound up getting rid of those chainplates and L brackets and mounted O'Day 25 chainplates.
If you have to replace that bulkhead, you would be wise to remove that hardware that he installed, plus the L brackets and go with some stronger L brackets.

My cushions only look good in the picture. The material that is on those cushions is not the same material that came with the boat. It looks like the original material. I bought that material from a marine fabric company in Warren RI years ago and my wife sewed it and made the covering. I really don't remember how much I paid for that material it's been so long ago. Today it's all frayed and ripped in some spots.
If you decide to do this job yourself you need to cut the material with a hot knife in a soldering gun and not with scissors. We didn't do that but this is how they cut Sumbrella. I'd like to replace that material with something of better quality and a completely different design. I'm not a stickler for having my boat look like it did when I bought it new.

Here's a picture of the tension bar on my boat. You could have a welder make it up for you and could install it yourself. It's just 1" stainless steel with a flat flange welded on one end, and the other end is flattened for the two bolts that attach to the wooden post. bare in mind that my tabernacle is different than yours and it has wider bolt spacing, but the flange on the tension bar is bolted to two of the tabernacle bolts on one side.
Joe

 

[48dodge]

FYI I had my boat stripped down to a bare hull with no supports or bulkheads for about 3 years while I was "working" on it and had no real issues putting stuff back in. Once I forced the wood center post back in everything else went in place pretty easily. If your hull liner is in good shape no need to replace it. If it needs to be replaced I have a link somewhere to the stuff I used. It's pretty much a dead ringer for the original stuff.

 

[Joe11688]

Joe, my 84 222 does not have the tension bar. When did they make the change? What is the issue with not having it?

Hi Peter,
I'm not sure when they made the change because I've talked to guys who owned earlier model O'Day 222s who said that their boat had the tension bar.
I believe that in time an issue can appear where the area under the mast tabernacle can sink enough to cause the stays to slack off.
I talked to one guy who told me that the sole plate under the wood post on the galley cabinet had sunk and he was trying to figure out a way to get access to it. I told him that he could remove that whole galley cabinet and cut a hole in sole area inside the storage area under the sink. I have no idea what caused that issue, unless someone tightened the stays too tight.
All I can tell you Peter is that something must have come up to cause the manufacturer to add these tension bars.
I think that as long as you stick with 1/8" stays and don't crank them down too tight, you should be OK. Also, the stock chainplates and "L" brackets should be OK provided that you don't crank the stays down too tight. As for the tension bar; I think it's a good idea to have one made up and install it. As these boats get older, they need all the reinforcement that they can get.

 

[48dodge]

Joe, do you remember the brand of red mahogany stain you used? Varnish? I know it'll look different on my ply, but I like the color of yours.

 

[Igetit]

Hey dodge, I wanted to ask what kind of wax you used on your hull. That sure is a nice shine coming off the deep blue, it looks brand new.

 

[48dodge]

New paint. It's been an ordeal, but glad I did it.

 

[Joe11688]

Joe, do you remember the brand of red mahogany stain you used? Varnish? I know it'll look different on my ply, but I like the color of yours.

I used Minwax Red Mahogany # 225 stain and Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane Clear Gloss. Pick up a box of cheap disposable cellophane work gloves for this job. They'll come in handy.
One of the guys on this forum who has since passed away did the cabin of his O'Day 222 "Get Away" with this stain and I liked it so much that I removed every piece of wood including the bulkheads and redid it all with the Mahogany stain and this brand of Polyurethane finish. A friend of mine had given me about four boxes of cellophane gloves and I kept them in the cabin of my boat for years. The boxes disintegrated in time and I took all the gloves and put them in a plastic bag. I thought about chucking them out until I decided to tackle this particular job and boy did they come in handy. I went through a lot of pair but I never had to clean a sticky mess from my hands.
About the time that I decided to change the color of my cabin, I went crazy and replaced that ugly fiberglass sink and stove insert with stainless steel, built a new shelf over the stove, and mounted the pump faucet in a new location. Then I replaced all the compartment covers on the settees and V birth with thicker birch plywood and did them up with the Mahogany stain. I think that the hardest part of the job is applying the polyurethane with a brush. If you have a paint sprayer it will come out looking better and it's easier to apply. I'm a hack when it comes to painting.
Joe

 

[Joe11688]

FYI I had my boat stripped down to a bare hull with no supports or bulkheads for about 3 years while I was "working" on it and had no real issues putting stuff back in. Once I forced the wood center post back in everything else went in place pretty easily. If your hull liner is in good shape no need to replace it. If it needs to be replaced I have a link somewhere to the stuff I used. It's pretty much a dead ringer for the original stuff.

You're lucky in that your cabin is still solid which means that your boat has never experienced any leaks on the cabin top that can in time cause core problems and weaken it.
Years ago I mounted a Teak block under my mast Tabernacle to make up for the difference in height from my old cast Aluminum tabernacle. The rigger told me that I needed 1-1/8" thick block in order for my stays to fit, so I used Teak. Looking back now, maybe wood wasn't a good choice. It was a good idea at the time, but yesterday I noticed a tiny leak around one of my tabernacle bolts during some rain. It was coming through the threads of the bolt. I'm thinking seriously of replacing the Teak with some kind of fiber material at the end of this season. I'm going to try tightening the nut to see if it stops.

 

[48dodge]

You're lucky in that your cabin is still solid which means that your boat has never experienced any leaks on the cabin top that can in time cause core problems and weaken it.
Years ago I mounted a Teak block under my mast Tabernacle to make up for the difference in height from my old cast Aluminum tabernacle. The rigger told me that I needed 1-1/8" thick block in order for my stays to fit, so I used Teak. Looking back now, maybe wood wasn't a good choice. It was a good idea at the time, but yesterday I noticed a tiny leak around one of my tabernacle bolts during some rain. It was coming through the threads of the bolt. I'm thinking seriously of replacing the Teak with some kind of fiber material at the end of this season. I'm going to try tightening the nut to see if it stops.

I was extremely lucky. When I tore everything down and checked the deck core, there were only a few spots of rot. All were easily repairable with just epoxy using Don Casey's techniques, no need to recore. The deck only dropped about 1" when I finally got around to putting the post back in place. That was with me walking all around the deck as well. I also completely separated the hulljoint and rebedded it a couple years ago. I had a horseshoe crammed somewhere for sure.

Maybe try ipe for your spacer. One of the hardest woods there is and extremely rot proof.

 

[Joe11688]

I was extremely lucky. When I tore everything down and checked the deck core, there were only a few spots of rot. All were easily repairable with just epoxy using Don Casey's techniques, no need to recore. The deck only dropped about 1" when I finally got around to putting the post back in place. That was with me walking all around the deck as well. I also completely separated the hulljoint and rebedded it a couple years ago. I had a horseshoe crammed somewhere for sure.

Maybe try ipe for your spacer. One of the hardest woods there is and extremely rot proof.

I may wind up building a block out of fiberglass epoxy and filler. One thing I don't need on that boat is rot.