Heel

[Joe11688]

I know that I've told this story before on this forum but it's worth repeating again.
Years back when I was first learning to sail, I bought a brand new 16' Cape Cod Shipbuilding Co. Gemini 2 twin centerboard sloop from the factory down in Wareham Ma. Some young salesman in the company talked me into buying it and to this day I'm sorry that I even listened to him.
This wasn't a sloop for the novice sailor believe me. It was so fast and so tender that it scared me. It would even scare me today if I still owned it.
To make a long story short, I capsized it out in the middle of the lake one summer through my own fault and in spite of the fact that it had foam flotation under the seats and an air tank in the bow, I couldn't right it because the stern was sunk.
My British Seagul outboard which I had stowed in the bow, slid out and went down to see Davy Jones. The transom had a provision for an outboard but the outboard got in the way of the rudder or the mainsheet bridle, so I had to take it off the transom and stow it up forward out of the way.
Fortuneately, a power boater came by and offered me a tow to shore.
After that, I brought it home and put a for sale sign on it.
After that unfortunate episode I almost gave up sailing but I wound up buying a real old used O'Day Javelin with a 55 lbs centerboard which in my opinion was slower but very stable. I sailed her in Narragansett Bay in the Bristol RI area and even sailed her all the way around Prudence Island one day with no outboard, just the sails. I really enjoyed that boat and felt comfortable sailing it in the Bristol RI area even in the month of November.

I'm glad that my wife wasn't with me on that day when I capsized that sloop. Looking back now, that boat was just the wrong boat for me. I've owned three brand new sloops since I've been boating and I hadn't found a boat that suited me until I bought this 86 O'Day 222. As far as I'm concerned, she's a keeper.

 

[LordNelson]

i can roller reef my oday 20 fairly easily. raise the main part way and then pull the spring loaded boom out and it will allow you to roll up some of the main to shorten sail. i also use a used thistle jib as a "storm" jib when winds are strong which i found at bacon and associates. (with just the main the boat doesn't point well.)

my wife has never gotten used to a sailboat heeling, but luckily my hearing isn't as good as i get older : )

 

[Joe11688]

i can roller reef my oday 20 fairly easily. raise the main part way and then pull the spring loaded boom out and it will allow you to roll up some of the main to shorten sail. i also use a used thistle jib as a "storm" jib when winds are strong which i found at bacon and associates. (with just the main the boat doesn't point well.)

my wife has never gotten used to a sailboat heeling, but luckily my hearing isn't as good as i get older : )

I have Jiffy reefing which is faster than conventional reefing and probably a little slower than roller reefing, but I've done it so often that it has become so automatic that I don't even think about what I'm doing.

Penny is not too comfortable with excessive heeling. She usually stations herself at the stern next to where I'm sitting and looks aft over the transom.
My previous First Mate "Ziggy" which is short for "Ziggathia Pitbull", was an excellent swimmer. She could dive head first right off the bow of the boat into the water and swim to the surface a few seconds later. She accidentally fell off the boat twice. I had to do a DOB maneuver. I put the swim ladder down and led her up the ladder by grabbing the handle on her doggy PFD. We sailed together for eleven years straight.
Here's a picture of Ziggy. I named a cove on the Taunton River after her years ago. After all these years everyone in the club still refer's to it as "Ziggy's Cove."

 

[Sunbird22358]

The Toquedo is just starting to make inroads here in the States. Not inexpensive, Cost is about equal to 4-8 HP gas outboard, but they are designed to be used on larger boats as auxiliary power or on heavy (and not so heavy) dinghies. Sort-of an electric British Seagull! (well, much quieter and frankly A LOT CLEANER!!)
The self-contained battery is neat.

Back to the heeling, 2 things.....
1) My Dad often talks about how he had been cautious while introducing my sister and I to sailing, sailing conservatively so as to not "scare" us. I remember that despite growing up with sailing..... it still was a bit scary the first few times we went out each season until I got used to the way the boat heeled. Well, getting back to Dad's comments.....he used to remark that the boat always seemed to heel over a bit more if my sister or I were at the helm....... and no screaming from either of us (if at the helm) than when he was steering. He finally assumed that it must be that by being at the helm..... we were in control, and that gave us more confidence.

2) Blown out sails do increase the heeling effect, they tend to hold the wind more and the effect is more heel, less go power. Newer sails that are not as stretched out will give more "go power" and less heeling due to their flatter shape. In general, no matter how new or old your sails are, remember "The more she blows, the tighter she goes", that means as the wind increases...you want to tighten the sail adjustments, in other words, the outhaul to flatten the sail along the boom, the halyard (and downhaul with a sliding gooseneck), and if you have one (and I'd suggest adding one if you don't!) tighten the boom vang to futher flatten the sail. All these tricks "depower" the main and help to reduce heeling.

If it is windy, try sailing with just the Main (raise the CB up a bit to move the balance of the boat aft to compensate). That will help, you may go slower.... but should be more comfortable. On hte older (1973-75) 20s with the masthead rig, it might be better to reef the main and keep hte jib up if you are using a small ,standard jib. My experience is almost totally with fractional rigged boats with a big main, small jib (although our fractional rigged CAL 21 had a main and jib that were nearly equal in area, and she sailed pretty good under main alone).

IndySailer, interesting to note.... one of the last times that my Dad and I were out on our old CAL 21 before we sold her, we experienced a knockdown (I think it was the only time we went over that far?) we didn't go anywhere near 90deg....probably 50deg at most, but over enough to half-fill the cockpit with water. The deep, fin keel showed it's worth and we righted quickly (thank goodness for that 360# of lead!). However, it startled me to the point of fright since I was at the helm when it happened. At that point I had been sailing my DS II for over 10 years and had a Widgeon for 8 years before that, never capsized either of them (despite a few close calls!), I always had faith in the stability of the CAL 21....... but that one incident really made an impression on me. We only went out a few more times after that...... but I found that I had lost my true comfort with the heeling of that boat......in time it would have come back I'm sure... but as I say we sold the boat the following year. Now, the interesting part is that the same day that we experienced that knockdown in the CAL 21...... I went out for an afternoon sail on my DS II. I sailed all over the river, no problem.... the DS II heeled over, I reacted as always..calmly easing hte mainsheet and steering slightly into the wind...no problem! Suddenly, I remembered the knockdown that morning..... I shuddered a bit...... then went right back to comfortably sailing.....I had complete confidence in the way that my DS II heeled over, knowing I could deal with it! Yet, as I say....... my nerves never really felt that calm on the CAL again. I think with thime (especially if at the helm!) you Wife will gain the full confidence in the 23 that she felt on her LASER.

 

[Joe11688]

I just checked out that Torqeedo and that looks like a sleek little motor. I wouldn't mind having one of those on my 222 some day when my two stroke croaks.

I've never tried moving my centerboard aft with just my Main up in a breeze of wind. I'm going to give that a try.
Do you think that it's wise to use the Cunningham on an old Mainsail Rod? I think I've only used it a couple of times on my boat. They say that setting the Cunningham forces the draft aft which would accomplish the same task, so I'm told.
I'm awful leery about using a Cunningham.

If you started sailing when you were a little kid, you've got more time into sailing than I do. I got started late in life back in the mid 1980s when I was in my 40s I think. I still consider myself a neophyte sailor.

As I remember, the Cal 21 was a nice little boat. I looked at them in the boat shows back then and I liked what I saw. I also liked the looks of the Quickstep 20 back then but after finding out about how their weighted centerboard pendant lines were configured a few years ago, I'm glad that I never bought one.

 

[Sunbird22358]

Joe, I would think tightening the cunningham would be the same as tightening the downhaul on my boat (my sail is actually set up for both), it should move the draft of the sail FORWARD (look for belly to gather nearer mast) This should increase "go" power and reduce the heeling effect (sail has less belly near trailing edge, thus trapping less heeling power) Sail becomes more "wing-like" (sorry, I'm grasping at straws here......I'm not a racing skipper.... I just know it works?) and powers the boat ahead. It is hard to put in words, but I find that tightening the luff and foot reduces heeling, and tightening the vang flattens the sail more to help even more.
One more step out on to that "limb"..... a wing that is thick top to bottom generates lift, but is harder to move through the air (we both know that a boat heels less after she starts moving) A thinner wing, still generates lift, but is easier to push through the air (higher speed)......
I'd say, "to make a long story short...." but it is too late!
My theory is that this shows that a flatter sail provides more push, less heeling.

The CAL 21 was a great little cruiser, the keel retracted like a CB for trailering, but unlike most retractable keels, once the keel was down we locked the keel down with a thin bolt and unhooked the cable from the keel. We then fitted a long plug in hte bottom of the keel trunk (there was a large hole in hte cockpit for access)and covered the hole in the cockpit that allowed keel access. She then became a virtually "fixed-keel" boat and sailed like a lightweight fin-keel boat. We LOVED that boat! However, the keel draws 4' 3" when down, limiting shallow water sailing...... We had the best and worst of both worlds. She was a centerboard boat when hauled out and sat low on a trailer (though we never had one, we kept her at the local boatyard on an a-frame cradle on wheels), and a fin-keel that sailed great in hte water. Our neighbor had a 1985 222 from 1990-95. and with her shallow K/CB he could moor her in the cove in front of our houses, with our 4'3" draft....... we couldn't stay there......... we moored at the boatyard. The CAL was the best boat for our needs when purchased new in 1970......... but when we sold her in 2008........ the shallow draft of my DS II was a better match. Someday, when I am confident in a secure job.... maybe I'll move up to a MARINER........ or a 192, might even consider a 222. I could have taken over full ownership of the CAL 21, but keeping my DS II made more sense. I tried to soft-sell my Dad on hte idea of selling both boats and buying a 222....... but I don't think either of us really wanted to do that. My Dad is a few years older than you (he's 74) and I think he has decided that as much as he liked having his own boat....... sailing with his son is a better solution. In a weak moment once he did confess that had he really wanted to still sail on his own boat, he might have considered seeking out a used MARINER.......... HMM! Wish he had talked about that sooner! My Mom was starting to enjoy the sailing less and less each year, and with her mild arthritus, it was getting harder for her to get on the boat from the dinghy. A slip was not the solution, not enough water and too much $$.

I couldn't resist posting a pic of the day we took delivery of our CAL..... I've aged a bit since then! And one of me at the helm in 2000 (wow, hard to believe even that was 11 years ago!).

 

[Larsden]

Thanks for the tip on the Torqeedo! I am going to keep my eye out for those down the road.

As for the stories about capsizing... That is how I got my O'Day 20. I had bought a C-Lark 14 thinking that it was just like the boat I learned to sail on in college except that it had a jib. Boy, was I wrong. It was fast, but very tender and just hard to use due to the boom being quite low. I should have done my research first and bought a cruising boat, not an old racing boat. Anyway, after a few decent trips with my girlfriend (now my wife) we capsized it while jibing. She said she'd never step foot on that boat again. Lucky for me she wasn't turned off of sailing, just sailing that boat. I lucked out and found a 20 at a good price and went for it. I found this forum and haven't regretted it once. So the 20 is our "stable boat" compared to what we used to have.

Once we got used to heeling, I just had to get her used to jibing since her only experienc with one included a swim.

 

[Indysailor]

Sunbird

I think with thime (especially if at the helm!) you Wife will gain the full confidence in the 23 that she felt on her LASER.

I think you are right. She's a pretty tough lass (once got her mountain bike back from the big kid who stole it in college by telling him she didn't care if he dragged her all over town- she was not letting go of the bike). I just feel lucky to have a sailing partner at the ready 24/7 who knows their way around the boat and I don't mind taking the tiller until she feels like she's ready to.

Also, I agree 100% about new sails. We bought a new main and it makes a lot of difference; we can feel the boat surge forward when the wind picks up, rather than just heeling over. She said that difference alone made the boat feel way less tender to her.

I keep telling her she just needs a bigger boat.

 

[Joe11688]

Once you hit retirement Rod, those years will fly by fast. I'm approaching my 12th year and I say to myself, "where did all that time go?" I just turned 68 two months ago.

Rod said, (quote)
Someday, when I am confident in a secure job.... maybe I'll move up to a MARINER........ or a 192, might even consider a 222.

Rod, I've got the perfect solution for you. You could keep your Day Sailer 2 in Wareham, buy an O'Day 222 and join our club or visa versa.
http://www.shawometyachtclub.com/
Stop down the club this year and I'll give you the grand tour. We have a few members who live near your area. We also have one guy who lives way up in Burlington. Thanks for the info.
Joe

 

[Joe11688]

Thanks for the tip on the Torqeedo! I am going to keep my eye out for those down the road.

As for the stories about capsizing... That is how I got my O'Day 20. I had bought a C-Lark 14 thinking that it was just like the boat I learned to sail on in college except that it had a jib. Boy, was I wrong. It was fast, but very tender and just hard to use due to the boom being quite low. I should have done my research first and bought a cruising boat, not an old racing boat. Anyway, after a few decent trips with my girlfriend (now my wife) we capsized it while jibing. She said she'd never step foot on that boat again. Lucky for me she wasn't turned off of sailing, just sailing that boat. I lucked out and found a 20 at a good price and went for it. I found this forum and haven't regretted it once. So the 20 is our "stable boat" compared to what we used to have.

Once we got used to heeling, I just had to get her used to jibing since her only experienc with one included a swim.

We both have been down that same road.

 

[Joe11688]

Sunbird

I think you are right. She's a pretty tough lass (once got her mountain bike back from the big kid who stole it in college by telling him she didn't care if he dragged her all over town- she was not letting go of the bike). I just feel lucky to have a sailing partner at the ready 24/7 who knows their way around the boat and I don't mind taking the tiller until she feels like she's ready to.

Also, I agree 100% about new sails. We bought a new main and it makes a lot of difference; we can feel the boat surge forward when the wind picks up, rather than just heeling over. She said that difference alone made the boat feel way less tender to her. They're a great boat for single handing and cruising. They're not too big, and not too small.



I keep telling her she just needs a bigger boat.

I think that as time goes on, you'll find that the O'Day 23 is all the boat that you'll ever need.

 

[Indysailor]

I think that as time goes on, you'll find that the O'Day 23 is all the boat that you'll ever need.

Agreed- I enjoy this boat very much. As a matter of fact, the next boat will be smaller, something we can keep on a dolly at the marina for the kids to sail.

 

[savon17]

Heel reply

Thanks everyone that replied to my request for information on heeling the O'Day 20. I took the only logical way out -- filed for divorce. Hah! Only kidding. Seriously, great tips and ideas.
Savon17

 

[1977oday22]

I think that as time goes on, you'll find that the O'Day 23 is all the boat that you'll ever need.

I agree, for me (as the owner) and what I do, my 22 is fine.
I have a great time - all the time, mostly sail solo, sleep in it when I'm tired.
(my wife has a chronic lung disease as it really depends on the weather if she can go out or not...)
I could easily go alot larger.
Fortunate for me, alot of friends have larger boats, 32,38,42.
I generally run the season with little or no problems and unforseen expenses.
Most of my friends w/larger boats, don't get to experience that comfort.
Infact, they think I'm a great sailor because I'm out all the time and, I can get my boat back in in bad weather.... (while they are repairing stuff on thier boat....dock-side..).

 

[Joe11688]

I agree, for me (as the owner) and what I do, my 22 is fine.
I have a great time - all the time, mostly sail solo, sleep in it when I'm tired.
(my wife has a chronic lung disease as it really depends on the weather if she can go out or not...)
I could easily go alot larger.
Fortunate for me, alot of friends have larger boats, 32,38,42.
I generally run the season with little or no problems and unforseen expenses.
Most of my friends w/larger boats, don't get to experience that comfort.
Infact, they think I'm a great sailor because I'm out all the time and, I can get my boat back in in bad weather.... (while they are repairing stuff on thier boat....dock-side..).

Years ago my wife and I were over in Martha's Vineyard for the week on our boat. We were anchored in the Katama River off Chappaquiddick Island next to a larger sloop and we were getting ready to shove off. I hoisted my mainsail and walked to the bow and proceeded to pull my anchor up by hand and the guy sitting in the large sloop next to us yelled over, "man, I wish I could do that!" I smiled and waved at him as I walked back to the tiller and took up on the Mainsheet.
I think that this guy was actually envious of me. He probably had to motor up the river where we short tacked our way in under sail. Not only that but his CQR anchor was probably heavier than my Johnson outboard and require an electric anchor winch to haul it up.

There's a big trade off in owning and operating a larger boat.
One of my friends wanted to give me his 75 O'Day K/C sloop,--free of charge. The boat was fully found with everything including a fiberglass dinghy, Autohelm 1000 ST+ pilot, stereo, braid pendant line with pickup stick, and a CDI Roller Furler. It was a beautiful boat and everything in the cabin went with it. He told me that he couldn't sell it and he wanted to find someone who would take this boat and use it. He said, "find someone who wants this boat and is willing to use it, and it's his."
I called one of my friends in the club and he jumped at it. My friend gave him the boat and I agreed to help him sail up from the Cape to our club. This boat is still in our club with a new owner, and he loves that boat.
I look at it this way; I'm happy and content with what I have.

 

[Herco Dunlop]

Would releasing the centerboard provide more stability? On my Oday 23 there is a line that releases it. I would also add that I took a sailing class last week in Key Largo and the captain said 20 degree heeling is not a problem. My boat is in Long Island Sound and I believe we probably have stronger wind gusts up here.

 

[ruidh]

You might find your ability to sail upwind seriously compromised in a high wind with just the shoal keel. The one time I ran aground was in attempting to sail upwind to get to my boat to the boatyard to get my centerboard unstuck and to get my outboard repaired.

 

[Sunbird22358]

Lowering the centerboard will definitely add to the directional stability of a K/CB boat, but won't do a lot to keep the boat upright, since there is very little ballast in an O'DAY centerboard. It may give a SLIGHT improvement due to getting that weight lower..... but hardly enough difference to really feel. (only talking about 40-50# on the 23, compared to the 1200# or lead in the fixed keel)

 

[Mad Dog]

As another poster pointed out, taking a lesson on your boat with an instructor or a trusted friend can do wonders for building confidence.