Heel

[savon17]

My wife & I recently learned how to sail and bought a nice O'Day 20 to sail in Narragansett Bay, RI. My wife is convinced we're going to capsize whenever the boat heels even a little, say like about not much over 5 degrees. Having a centerboard, I'm pretty sure it can, technically, capsize, but with the partial keel, I think it would take quite a bit of wind for that to happen.
Any O'Day 20 sailors, maybe even one who has capsized, want to give me some info on this?

 

[Joe11688]

My wife & I recently learned how to sail and bought a nice O'Day 20 to sail in Narragansett Bay, RI. My wife is convinced we're going to capsize whenever the boat heels even a little, say like about not much over 5 degrees. Having a centerboard, I'm pretty sure it can, technically, capsize, but with the partial keel, I think it would take quite a bit of wind for that to happen.
Any O'Day 20 sailors, maybe even one who has capsized, want to give me some info on this?

I have an 86 O'Day 222 that I bought new at the boat show many years ago so I can't really speak very much on the O'Day 20 as I've never sailed one. Two of my friends in the club have owned the O'Day 20 and they seemed pretty happy with them.
The 222s have a keel/centerboard with an 800 lbs keel but they can have their scary moments in big wind gusts. I've found this out many times while sailing the Taunton River which can kick up just as much as the bays.
All mono hull sailboats heel and there will be times when the wind is really light and you'll find that sitting on the low side to make her heel will actually help her speed as she's ghosting along. Then there will be times when the wind is a little stronger than usual and you're going to need to keep the Main sheet in your hand just in case you need to let it off real quick to spill the wind. It this situation I think that most of the time you will be able to accomplish this same task by using the tiller to head her up a little bit and I strongly advise that you practice this constantly. The important thing in sailing is to keep the boat's "way on" and don't let her stall. Forward movement provides rudder control. This is a good thing to keep in mind as you are learning about your boat. This is where a good Windex wind indicator comes in handy and I'll talk to you more on that later.

I think that what you need to do is get used to your boat and experiment with different sail configurations just to find out what works and what doesn't work.
My boat can maneuver and sail very well with just the Mainsail. I'm not sure if that is the case for all sloops of this size. Some may stall when coming about and fail to tack without the Jib or Genoa sail working.
When the winds really kick up I roll up my Genoa and just use the Mainsail. If the winds are to over bearing for the full Mainsail, I'll reef it.

I think that it's important that you rig up a boom vang and use it when the wind kicks up. If you don't have one it would behoove you to get one and install it.
Probably one of the most important things you need to have is a good wind indicator and I'm not talking about yarns attached to the stays.
Davis makes a great Windex wind indicator that has a "V" shaped vane attached to it. I bought one years ago and attached it to a 12" extension bracket and mounted it at the top of my mast on the Port side.
These things are great especially when sailing downwind which can be scary if the wind gets behind the wrong side of the sail and causes an accidental jibe. The Windex can alert you before hand if you are keeping an eye on the pointer in relation to the "V" shaped vanes.

So in the final analysis, you need to get used to your boat and learn all of her little idiosyncrasies. If the wind is really piping up with large wind gusts that come up all of a sudden, don't go out sailing in it, or just find a well protected cove to hang out on the hook for a while.
Trust me on that last one. I got into sailing late in life and never took lessons. I went to the city library and drew out books on sailing and learned by going out and practicing what I read. To this day, I won't even go out there if the wind is really more that I want to handle. I'm not too fond of having to fight the wind and waves while I'm getting hit in the face with spray and getting my butt soaked in the process.
My dog Penelope isn't too fond of rough weather either. She hasn't mastered the MOB maneuver technique and if I go over the side, I'm on my own and so is she.
With that said though, we've sailed our O'Day 222 all over Mount Hope and Narragansett Bay, Block Island, Cuttyhunk, the Elizabeths, and Martha's Vineyard. We've always picked the days when we sailed to these places because these are small boats and bays can kick up.
Good luck with your O'Day 20! Hey maybe I'll see you out there some day and give you a wave. Narragansett Bay is my favorite sailing area especially the Northern end of Prudence.
Joe

 

[Stu Jackson]

Good reply, Joe.

The short answer is that if the wind is not shrieking what happens is as the mast is pushed over the sails are not upright into the wind and the wind spills off. Most smaller boat hulls are designed so that as they start to lay over the boat rounds up, head to wind.

If your wife continues with her concern, take a sailing lesson on YOUR boat. Having the instructor explain stuff to her might help a lot.

 

[Doug L]

Sailboats heel. This is just the way it is. Most boats do just fine up to about 20 degrees heel, then start loosing efficiency. 30 degrees really does not hurt. as the boat heels more, it dumps air from the sails, and most boats tend to point into the wind, if you want them to or not. As Trinkka said, keep the boat moving, so it can respond to the rudder. Many people take a while to get used to the heel. Your wife probably will do fine with more time on the water. Teach her to sit on the high side, but try not to refer to her as "rail meat". ;-)

 

[RichBone]

Find out how much ballast is used in your boat. It'll be more than sufficient to keep it from capsizing. Stand on the toe rail to see how much it heels. It's basic physics. Once she understands that the boat won't capsize and will self right herself she should be more comfortable.
I just checked and there should be 400# of lead as ballast.

Rich

 

[Valere Oddoux]

Hi all
I have a mariner 20 that I used to race and now fixing it up and my wife shrieks as well!
The 20 is a very stable boat and it takes a lot to get her over, I managed to capsize once but it took a mega gust that we didn't see coming as it was just before the start of a race we were not looking, it went flat on the water and stayed there! Mast in the water! all boards where out and to my amazement the water did not get in the cabin! it just laped the opening. Now my boat is a V2+2 with self draining cockpit, I wouldn't do that with the older version.
The two of us jumped on the board and it came back up very quickly, too quickly as we ended up in the water and the boat took off on us (but that's another story!!!)
Tell your wife she is safe in that boat and if the weather turns nasty keep an eye out and run.

 

[jeadstx]

Sailboats heel when sailing. I've capsized my 17' Day Sailer while single handing once by doing everything wrong you can do, my fault. Last November while racing in 20 knot winds it was heeled over to the point that the rail went under water twice filling the cockpit with water. I let up on the sail a bit and got the boat in a little less heel. I learned to sail on a Mariner 2+2 and managed to put the rail on that under water once and the boat didn't capsize. Cockpit and cabin both filled with water that time. Bailed on a downwind run. When in heavy winds, reduce sail or reef the main (or both). I have two sets of reef points in my mainsail.

If your wife is uncomfortable with the heel, get an experienced sailor (or an instructor as has been mentioned) out with you on your boat with you and your wife.

John

 

[ebsail]

You might take the boat to the dock and tie an extra long line to the main halyard. Then give the line/halyard to your wife and tell her to pull the boat over on its side. She'll see how much the boat resisits and will have more confidence

 

[Valere Oddoux]

That's a great idea. I tried to do that once to work on the centre board and good luck that's hard.

 

[Joe11688]

My wife & I recently learned how to sail and bought a nice O'Day 20 to sail in Narragansett Bay, RI. My wife is convinced we're going to capsize whenever the boat heels even a little, say like about not much over 5 degrees. Having a centerboard, I'm pretty sure it can, technically, capsize, but with the partial keel, I think it would take quite a bit of wind for that to happen.
Any O'Day 20 sailors, maybe even one who has capsized, want to give me some info on this?

Sailboats can be scary at times for people who never learned to swim and this is understandable when you think about it. My wife can't swim a stroke and she's not keen on sailing.
The type of sailboat can make a difference. Centerboard sloops as you know can be very unstable at times in puffy winds whereas keel type and keel/centerboard sloops are more forgiving.
If your boat has old blown out sails, I think that this can be a big factor in stability. I believe that newer stiffer sails will give better performance and a quicker response to the helm which is very important in attaining "way on."

I've always considered myself a good swimmer and I was always able to swim great distances because of my ability to float a while if I got tired, or swim belly up while kicking my feet. I've always taken this for granted and just figured that everyone could do this. This kind of thinking is wrong.
So what I'm saying is some people have never done these things and don't have the confidence in their swimming ability. Sometimes we need to put ourselves in their place.
I'm not saying that the Mrs should give up sailing. The fact that she's willing to go sailing proves to me that she's willing to make the effort to overcome her concern for the boat's heel.
One thing in your favor is the fact that the O'Day 20 is a more forgiving sailboat than a centerboard daysailor.
With that said, all sailboats heel and you want them to heel a little. It's the nature of the beast. On nice days with steady winds, sailing is very enjoyable and these are the days that you should be out there enjoying your boat. On these nice days your confidence builds and you also gain more experience in being able to handle your boat.
It's important for her to handle the helm and the Mainsheet while you attend to the Jib sheets. Take turns. My wife gained a lot of confidence when I handed her the tiller on days with steady light winds. This can make all the difference in the world. Keep in mind that one bad day with high shifty puffy winds with chop and spray can ruin it.
Joe

 

[Indysailor]

Here's a weird tid bit, relating to Joe's comments.

My wife grew up sailing her own Laser. Put her in a Sunfish or similar centerboard boat and she sails with all the confidence and finesse in the world, a completely intuitive sailor, unafraid to hike out, get the boat on its rail or get knocked over.

Put her at the tiller of our boat and she's fine until the wind pipes up. She said the difference is that her mind won't let her realize the boat won't capsize. She thinks she is just so attuned to reacting to heeling (which means capsizing a board boat if you don't react) that she can't get a good feel for our 23.
Really frustrates her.

 

[Joe11688]

Here's a weird tid bit, relating to Joe's comments.

My wife grew up sailing her own Laser. Put her in a Sunfish or similar centerboard boat and she sails with all the confidence and finesse in the world, a completely intuitive sailor, unafraid to hike out, get the boat on its rail or get knocked over.

Put her at the tiller of our boat and she's fine until the wind pipes up. She said the difference is that her mind won't let her realize the boat won't capsize. She thinks she is just so attuned to reacting to heeling (which means capsizing a board boat if you don't react) that she can't get a good feel for our 23.
Really frustrates her.

That's really uncanny. The difference between capsizing a laser over capsizing an O'Day 23 is that you can right a laser. I'm not sure if that's true with my O'Day 222 or your O'Day 23 particularly if your cabin hatches are open.
I've come close to capsizing my 222 in the lake near my house on a windy day and boy was that scary.
With that said though, I truly believe that our sailboats could capsize but as a general rule, a keel/centerboard sloop is more forgiving than a Laser centerboard sloop.
I've found that if the wind is stronger than usual with occasional strong puffs, I find it very challenging to use the tiller to counteract the puffs rather than spill the wind with my Mainsheet. If the wind is fluky and coming from different directions, I don't want to be out there.

I think that the Mrs needs to keep in mind that it's possible for the O'Day 23 to capsize under rare conditions. It's OK to keep the Mainsheet in her hand just to be on the safe side, but rather than spill the wind with the mainsheet like she did with the Laser, she should keep her eyes peeled for dark spots on the water approaching the boat and play the tiller just before it hits the sails.
In other words, head her up a little until the wind diminishes and then put her right back where she was and continue on.

 

[Indysailor]

I think the size difference is the main culprit and that her skills will eventually come to her on a bigger boat. She relies on me more than she wants to, so we started playing a game where she pretended I was a newbie and needed constant instruction (I play dumb pretty well) It has helped her to gain more confidence and she actually took her girlfriends out for the first time last year. None of them sail and when I met her at the dock she looked worn out but happy. It was a light wind day, perfect for an easy sail. The following week we had 15 mph winds and I showed her how to reef out on the water. She sailed under those conditions pretty well (one reef point makes a lot of difference on our boat).
She does like to sail with that sheet in her hands, though.

 

[Joe11688]

I get worn out every time I come back after taking guests out on my boat. This is the prime reason why I love to sail alone with Penny. When I'm out there on my boat I need my space. I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it. This probably sounds selfish but sailing is a time consuming activity which I enjoy and I'm more of a cruiser than a day sailor. It's cheaper for me to go out for overnighters and I like the feeling that I can go for more than one overnighter if I choose.

It's OK to hold the Mainsheet in your hand if you choose. I generally just set the Mainsheet and I leave it. Heck, half the time I don't even steer the boat unless the sailing is exceptionally good. I set the autopilot and have a coffee while keeping a sharp lookout.
If your wife is able to take that boat out by herself, I'd say she is quite capable. I could never get my wife to steer the boat unless I was sitting next to her. That's why I bought the autopilot years ago. If I had to go forward to un-snag a sheet she would kick like heck about having to take the tiller. I'd hear stuff like,-- "Where ya going now?" and, "Well, OK but hurry back here when you get through doing what yor're doing!"
I'd say that you're a luck fellow.
If only I could teach Penelope to steer the boat. Hmm!

 

[Larsden]

I have a '79 O'Day 20. My wife and I went through the same thing getting used to heeling. We'd just limit the heel with the mainsheet and steering as others have said. But we'd push it further each time we'd go out. I was so discouraged with our level of comfortability at the beginning of last summer. By fall, we were quite comfortable so it really worked. We don't go out in very strong wind though. Maybe 18 knots max so far although we've taken some decent gusts. Our small lake doesn't allow gasoline engines, so we only have a trolling motor and therefore don't want to go out in winds too strong to get back to the dock with the motor if something goes wrong.

We haven't pushed it to the point of getting the rails in the water, but I would think it would take some really strong downward wind or strong wind and larger waves to get the mast in the water.

 

[Joe11688]

I have a '79 O'Day 20. My wife and I went through the same thing getting used to heeling. We'd just limit the heel with the mainsheet and steering as others have said. But we'd push it further each time we'd go out. I was so discouraged with our level of comfortability at the beginning of last summer. By fall, we were quite comfortable so it really worked. We don't go out in very strong wind though. Maybe 18 knots max so far although we've taken some decent gusts. Our small lake doesn't allow gasoline engines, so we only have a trolling motor and therefore don't want to go out in winds too strong to get back to the dock with the motor if something goes wrong.

We haven't pushed it to the point of getting the rails in the water, but I would think it would take some really strong downward wind or strong wind and larger waves to get the mast in the water.

I hate listening to gasoline engines. I'd use a yuloh or a sweep oar to propel my boat if I could get away with it. The currents are just too strong in my area.
I'm not all that familiar with the O'Day 20 and how they sail. My O'Day 222 will sail pretty well with just the Mainsail. I troll for Stripers and Blue Fish with just the Mainsail up. I can adjust my speed better and when I get a "fish on" it's a lot easier to play him with that one sail up.
I trolled while sailing under "bare poles" last year with the wind pushing us down the river. The boat speed was perfect for sailing with just the centerboard down with no sails up.

 

[1977oday22]

Hey Guys! Hope everyone had great holidays!
Talking about heeling, I control it so it's comfortable to me and any passengers.
On occasion, I do have a friend that I go out with and we really put it through some tests!
Of course mine is 30+ years old....after running the rail in the water quite a bit, it's comfortable to know, she can push through alot and take it. In the goofy water I sail in, I have alot of respect for what she can do! I'm pretty confident with caution, that I'm getting back.

 

[gabriel.donnelly]

capsize it...if you can. with her on it. right it, bail it, then Never do it again.
i had to do the same with a gf years back... she was a Much better sailor for it.
-g

 

[RECESS]

It helps if you buy her this shirt from Good Old Boat.

WE AIN'T LEANING TILL SOMEONE'S SCREAMIN'!

 

[Valere Oddoux]

Hey Larsen
If you can't have an outboard on your lake you need a Torkeedo, I'm not sure if you can get them in the States but they are getting quiet popular in OZ.