Heel Control

sinnettc · May 14, 2013

Traveler or main sheet?

Traveler moves the block/cleat assembly for the main sheet from port to starboard and back. If you don't want to use it (yet) then set it in the middle and leave it there.

If it's the main sheet you're talking about, you shouldn't just set it and forget it. You need to adjust it based on your angle to the wind. You can also let it out in those big puffs which will keep the boat more level and you won't have to turn up into the wind (as much).

RichH · May 14, 2013

1. How much 'so called weather helm' do you have when this boat is heeled?
2. Is the 'turbulence wake' from the keel/centerboard coming almost STRAIGHT back from the stern when this 'heeling problem' (+ 'helm problem') happens?

If youre dragging your rudder slightly sideways or more than 'slightly' in order to correct for so called 'weather helm', the boat will be held to SLOW which will cause the boat to aggressively heel over.
If the rigging, especially the forestay (controlled by the backstay) is too loose, the boat will skid to leeward and what you "feel" as weather helm is the side forces on the ruddercaused by the skid. Those side forces onto the keel/CB and rudder, caused by a 'skid', will make a boat heel excessively. If the turbulence wake is coming off the stern at a noticeable angle (more than about 3-4°) instead of almost straight .... then tighten your backstay - to about 15-20% tension.

Suggest some trials (one item at a time):
1. Adjust your rig tension so that you have at least 12-15+% tension on your backstay ... if no gage simply make the backstay tension 'very tight' (as a trial). A loose forestay will cause 'aggressive' heeling, poor 'pointing' and VERY 'cranky' boat.
Precise details of forestay/backstay tension: http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFiles/Matching Luff Hollow.pdf

2. make sure that your mainsail has its "point of maximum draft" in the correct place .... controlled by halyard / cunningham tension. Then after you get proper luff tension in the mainsaiul, go onto a beat and apply sufficient mainsheet tension so that the 'second from the top batten' is approximately parallel with the boats centerline .... if needed then adjust the halyard tensions as described in: "How to properly raise a dacron mainsail" http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970 .... see post #1
When pulling in the mainsheet when on a hard beat to windward, be sure that the leech of the mainsail is essentially parallel to the centerline of the boat, if the leech is 'hooked up towards the weather side' (not parallel to the centerline or less) then you will promote EXCESS heeling and probably accompanied by a significant increase in 'weather helm'.

philwsailz · May 15, 2013

Based on what you just described, no amount of traveller control will correct you heel, as your traveller is already moving to its "least-heeled" position for either tack. Adding traveller control will allow you to pull your mainsheet mroe in-line with center, but that will worsen heel...

How "baggy" is your main? I.e., how far does the belly or pouch of your main sail extend to leeward with respect to the boom? If it is really scooped out, you will want to flatten your main sheet by pulling the sail outwards/aft on the boom. You hopefully have some sort of means of tensioning the fooot of the main? We usually use an outhaul for this.
Another thing to think about on the main is draft position. How far back is the deepest part of the belly we just touched on? If it is way aft, consider hauling on your main halyard to tighten it, or use a boom-downhaul, or a cunningham to pull down on the sail. Tightening the luff of the main sail will pull the draft forward.

Moving forward, on the forestay, wtih the jib loaded up, are there lots of horizontal creases in the sail cloth? If there are lots of horizontal creases in your jib, you need to tighten the halyard, or install a jib downhaul. This will move the jib draft forward. How far downwind does the jib pull the midpoint of the forestay? If your forestay makes a great big arc with the jib powered up, consider tightening your rigging, both the backstay and the forestay to keep the rake of the mast about where it is.

As I type this, thinking about heeling in the wind you suggest, all I can see are fat sails. Employ the methods mentioned above if not already in use and flatten your sails while at the same time moving the draft forward. this will "shift gears" on your sails from power to speed. The result could be, if I am right, that you will go faster and heel less.

Let us know?

Okiesaylor · May 15, 2013

I am new to this sailing thing. I don't know all the official terms or the exact science of sail shape and trim. I do know, however, that if my boat is heeling more than what is comfortable for my smokin hot wife, I let the main out, the boat rights its self, and she is once again happy!

Stu Jackson · May 15, 2013

That's your issue.

The heeling seems to happen in any sail condition although I try to keep my sails trimmed/tight/flat at all times except when running dead downwind.

You need to let the mainsheet out as you bear off the wind.

Have you tried "Sailing for Dummies?" I've been sailing for 40+ years or more and still found it a good read.

Fix the traveler, too.

Pat Royce's Sailing Illustrated has a great section on C22s.

philwsailz · May 15, 2013

MacGreg said:
There is no way to adjust the traveler so the boom just swings to full starboard or full port when coming about but I have the mainsheet tight as possible so it doesn't swing out too far.

I may need to just learn more about adjusting the mainsheet. Not sure if this is part of the problem or not...?

I think you just wrote your own answer. For any point of sail other than straight down-wind, the mainsail wants to be adjusted for the best angle-of-attacked with respect to the wind. Here is a practice method I used to get better:

Get going along where the wind is at your back, coming at you at basically 90 degrees. Let your main sail out all the way. Now look at the front of the main, right next to the mast. When the sail is all loose and undertrimmed you will see the sail ruffling and back-winding where the down-wind side of the sail is moving upwind. That tells you your mainsail is too far out. Now slowly pull on your mainsheet bringing the boom around. Continue watching those little "bubbles" at the front of the mainsail. At some point the main will quit back-filling on the leading edge, and you will feel the boat take off under your butt. A little more mainsheet trim is all you need to set the mainsail to its optimim for that point of sail.

Now turn slowly upwind, using your tiller to turn the boat. Without adjusting your mainsheet you will again rotate to a direction where the main's leading edge starts "bubbling" again. Just like before, pull your mainsheet in until the bubbling goes away and the boat accelerates away again.... The mainsail will tell you the optimum sail position for any given angle to the wind.

Consider these two different sailing directions. Your boat was moving at two different angles with respect to the wind, but if you think about what you did with the sail, the sail's angle to the wind is pretty close to the same for both points of sail. That is what you will want to learn to see and feel; the optimum sail position for any tack or point of sail...

IF you are trying to sail with the mainsheet all pulled tight for any point of sail other than close-hauled, (trying to sail as close to upwind as possible), you WILL heel excessively, and it will get worse the farther off wind you turn.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Now know that you have two sails to work through this with, and the two sails will in general need to work in tandem with similar angles of attack with respect to the wind. that is a very over-simplified explanation but it suffices for now.

Play that mainsheet and learn how to make it work for your benefit. You will find the fastest mainsail setting will also usually be the flattest.....

Good luck and keep us posted!

Stu Jackson · May 15, 2013

You might also consider buying Don Guilette's Sail Trim Guide & Chart. Right here on this website. Click on the Forums tab at the top, scroll down to featured contributors. Easy.

BioAndy · May 15, 2013

Just a thought. Make sure your mainsail is holding the boom up and not your topping lift. A topping lift that is not slack will not allow you to flatten the main properly on any point of sail.

Nahart51 · May 15, 2013

You just may be sheeted in too tight.

When in doubt, let it out. If gusty winds are knocking you down, pull your traveller windward to open the top of your sail and spill the wind
Use your 110 jib unless the wind is light.

Richie50 · May 15, 2013

I agree with Stu about the two books he has recommended. I took his advised from other post last year and found them to be a great source of information an sailing know how.

ShotgunSlim · May 15, 2013

All this talk of sails and yet I still can't help but wonder, if this is a swing keel boat, is it lowered all the way down when sailing? This should be an obvious no brainer but when it comes to boats, anything is possible.

CCrane2299 · May 15, 2013

philwsailz said:
I think you just wrote your own answer. For any point of sail other than straight down-wind, the mainsail wants to be adjusted for the best angle-of-attacked with respect to the wind. Here is a practice method I used to get better:

Get going along where the wind is at your back, coming at you at basically 90 degrees. Let your main sail out all the way. Now look at the front of the main, right next to the mast. When the sail is all loose and undertrimmed you will see the sail ruffling and back-winding where the down-wind side of the sail is moving upwind. That tells you your mainsail is too far out. Now slowly pull on your mainsheet bringing the boom around. Continue watching those little "bubbles" at the front of the mainsail. At some point the main will quit back-filling on the leading edge, and you will feel the boat take off under your butt. A little more mainsheet trim is all you need to set the mainsail to its optimim for that point of sail.

Now turn slowly upwind, using your tiller to turn the boat. Without adjusting your mainsheet you will again rotate to a direction where the main's leading edge starts "bubbling" again. Just like before, pull your mainsheet in until the bubbling goes away and the boat accelerates away again.... The mainsail will tell you the optimum sail position for any given angle to the wind.

Consider these two different sailing directions. Your boat was moving at two different angles with respect to the wind, but if you think about what you did with the sail, the sail's angle to the wind is pretty close to the same for both points of sail. That is what you will want to learn to see and feel; the optimum sail position for any tack or point of sail...

IF you are trying to sail with the mainsheet all pulled tight for any point of sail other than close-hauled, (trying to sail as close to upwind as possible), you WILL heel excessively, and it will get worse the farther off wind you turn.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Now know that you have two sails to work through this with, and the two sails will in general need to work in tandem with similar angles of attack with respect to the wind. that is a very over-simplified explanation but it suffices for now.

Play that mainsheet and learn how to make it work for your benefit. You will find the fastest mainsail setting will also usually be the flattest.....

Good luck and keep us posted!

That was as helpful as anything I've ever read. Thank you.

ShotgunSlim · May 16, 2013

This is the best place I've ever found regarding the learning curve on sailing and repairing your boat with experienced people from all over the country. I own a swing keel model and have at least a dozen trips under my belt and I will be pointed up wind with the main halyard in my hand ready to raise the sail and realize I still haven't let the keel down. I think I've only had company on my boat 3 or 4 times so far and so I sail solo more often than not. When sailing, I cleat the jib sheet off and sail with the main sheet in one hand, tiller in the other and either let the boom out or take it in to control heel and boat speed.

Chris Patterson · May 16, 2013

All of these guys have given you years of experience in a few posts, and for sure, all that info can be hard to absorb quickly. If it's any consolation, some of us have been sailing for years, and still learn new sail trim tricks daily. I've been sailing mostly for 40 years, and some days, I feel like the biggest rookie out there.

But like I've seen said here a couple of times, keeping the main sheeted tightly in and ignoring it won't help you. I've often heard the "beginners" way to start learning sail "trim" is, put the boat out there, turn the mainsheet loose completely, where it's basically just flapping in the wind. Slowly pull it in until the sail stops flapping, the boat should at this time be moving, and play with it from there. As others have said, if it leans over too hard, simply let out the sheet. As a new sailor, processing the information of mainsheet, traveler, vang, outhaul, topping lift, down-haul, Cunningham, etc. can be very difficult to pick up on easily. So don't clutter your mind immediately about all these terms, as they will come to you with practice, and a little study about the sport. Just let your sails ease out for now, and watch the boat sit up. If morons like me can figure it out, it can't be that hard.
And tie that traveler down tight in the center FOR NOW, it can't be good on the nerves that thing slapping back and forth. Later you will probably be interested in making it adjustable, as it is a very fine point of proper trim.

StanFM · May 16, 2013

MacGreg said:
Haha you're right; 'when it comes to boats..." It's a fixed keel. I think theres something like a nearly a ton of lead down there. Which is why I am wondering about the extreme heel in only 15 mph winds...

There are a lot of great answers/responses here. I am going to try all of them. I think it may just be that I need to start controlling the traveler/mainsheet more (or at all). I never touch it. I usually pull it tight and let it swing freely on the traveler from starboard to port as it wishes (when I come about).

I usually single hand and I'm in way over my head already with the tiller, jib sheet and halyard in my hand. I can't imagine messing with the traveler/main sheet as well especially in the gusty winds we get and with this nasty heavy heel that I'm dealing with. It's just too much. I may need to hire on a first mate or just cleat the halyard and deal with the gusts with the main sheet. It's all very confusing and scary as well. I usually have to literally release and kick the tiller away to round up when I heel to avoid breach.

I'm new at all this as well, and had similar frustrations at first, especially trying to mimic other boaters or photos of boats. So what worked for me, was to go out sailing a few times with only one sail up, either jib or main, but not both. Learn how each likes to put pressure into the boat. When learning to drive a car, folks seldom take out a hot rod and go fast. So if you have the ability to reduce the size of your main sail, do it before you leave the dock. The boat will become very docile, while still reacting to the main (it will want to keep nosing the boat into the wind, whereas just the jib wants to push the nose away from the wind--- together they create a balance of those pushes). Once you understand each sail individually, then put them together. I've been racing with a fleet this past year, and there is so much to do, that it can be overwhelming at times. For example, I put an adjustment on my traveler so I could control it. But most of the time in a race, it ended up being more of a distraction trying to turn around the mark, and quickly adjust 59 things...

Simplify, slow down, and gain confidence. Worked for me, anyway.

Stan

OldCat · May 22, 2013

In another post you mentioned 20-30mph gusts. For that, I'd want to reef. Racers here still run full sail at the lower end of the 20-30 thing, they push hard but sometimes they broach...

I'd rather reef, sheet out the main with a tight vang or luff up.

As others have noted, good sail trim will extend the comfort zone for carrying full sail. Don Guilette's stuff is well worth reading. Also, you might benefit from studying the C22 tuning guides on the web. Here is one example: http://www.bartlettsails.com/html/One_Design/Catalina-22.html.

Google/Yahoo/Bing "C22 tuning guide" and you will get a number of good reads.

OC