I have just purchased a 1986 Catalina 22 and got caught in my first quick blow while bringing her home on the water (about an 8 minute adrenaline rush). My question is; what is considered "terminal" heel angle.
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G
Guest
how hard was the wind blowing?
Al: How hard was the wind blowing? People have told me that the boat should head up into the wind itself before theres a danger of it going over. But even if it did go over, with the keel locked down, should'nt it self right?
Al: How hard was the wind blowing? People have told me that the boat should head up into the wind itself before theres a danger of it going over. But even if it did go over, with the keel locked down, should'nt it self right?
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matt christenson
heel
This past memorial day a c22 turtled in a race from excessive heel only because her lock down bolt failed on her and the swung up into the boat. I have been caught in a gust and put the port side windows in the water. I was standing on the side of the cockpit but the boat actualy took over turning into the wind and righting herself so quickle I lost my footing. I have never repeated that situation. I keep a thorough eye on the water for shifting wind conditions and have learned how to keep a solid 10 to 15 degress heel through most conditions. For my c-22 she seems to have a groove btweeen 10 and 15 degrees heel. And as they say flater is faster. learning how to ease the main and genoa are the main keys to gust survival. Good luck and practice this in calm weather so you are prepared. It makes for a more relaxed adrenalin rush.
This past memorial day a c22 turtled in a race from excessive heel only because her lock down bolt failed on her and the swung up into the boat. I have been caught in a gust and put the port side windows in the water. I was standing on the side of the cockpit but the boat actualy took over turning into the wind and righting herself so quickle I lost my footing. I have never repeated that situation. I keep a thorough eye on the water for shifting wind conditions and have learned how to keep a solid 10 to 15 degress heel through most conditions. For my c-22 she seems to have a groove btweeen 10 and 15 degrees heel. And as they say flater is faster. learning how to ease the main and genoa are the main keys to gust survival. Good luck and practice this in calm weather so you are prepared. It makes for a more relaxed adrenalin rush.
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Ted
Terminal heel angle
Al, This is a great question that I've been wondering about myself. From what I've read this is something that the manufacturer should be able to provide but has not been published by Catalina. I think that theoretically the angle is a minimum of 90 degrees. For bluewater cruisers it should be at least 135+. Practically speaking if a Cat 22 goes to 90 or maybe even a little less, the sails would fill with water and then pull it past its terminal angle. Since the boat does not have positive floation and if the cabin fills with water the boat will sink. Therefore in heavy weather its advisable to keep water out of the cabin by having the hatch boards in place.
Al, This is a great question that I've been wondering about myself. From what I've read this is something that the manufacturer should be able to provide but has not been published by Catalina. I think that theoretically the angle is a minimum of 90 degrees. For bluewater cruisers it should be at least 135+. Practically speaking if a Cat 22 goes to 90 or maybe even a little less, the sails would fill with water and then pull it past its terminal angle. Since the boat does not have positive floation and if the cabin fills with water the boat will sink. Therefore in heavy weather its advisable to keep water out of the cabin by having the hatch boards in place.
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Don
C22 Sinking
Here's an excerpt from an experienced sailor/racer who had a C22 sink to the bottom of the lake. "...We were racing the C22 in 20 - 23K wind and were running with a poled-out 110 and a reefed main. Fortunately the 3 of us were wearing life jackets. We got hit by a 35k gust with a 90 degree shift (not unusual on the lake)and started to death roll. The jib back-winded and the boat broached. The keel was down, but not locked, and as the spreader hit the water the keel collapsed from the severe chop on the lake. With no righting moment she kept going and turtled. We all stepped off the boat (I didn't even get my sunglasses wet!) A C30 was about 3 boat lengths to leeward and he dropped his sails and motored around us trailing lines. We were safe in his cabin within 2 minutes of getting wet. A friend who SCUBA's dove on her the next week and brought up most of our personal stuff and then the mast, boom and sails. He was planning on raising her, but a week later the lake flooded (deja vu all over again) and instead of being 69' deep she was now at 99' - so he didn't have enough bottom time. He finally got around to raising her 3 years later after buying the title from the insurance co. 2 months after she sank we found our C25 - and obviously picked a fixed keel!..."
Here's an excerpt from an experienced sailor/racer who had a C22 sink to the bottom of the lake. "...We were racing the C22 in 20 - 23K wind and were running with a poled-out 110 and a reefed main. Fortunately the 3 of us were wearing life jackets. We got hit by a 35k gust with a 90 degree shift (not unusual on the lake)and started to death roll. The jib back-winded and the boat broached. The keel was down, but not locked, and as the spreader hit the water the keel collapsed from the severe chop on the lake. With no righting moment she kept going and turtled. We all stepped off the boat (I didn't even get my sunglasses wet!) A C30 was about 3 boat lengths to leeward and he dropped his sails and motored around us trailing lines. We were safe in his cabin within 2 minutes of getting wet. A friend who SCUBA's dove on her the next week and brought up most of our personal stuff and then the mast, boom and sails. He was planning on raising her, but a week later the lake flooded (deja vu all over again) and instead of being 69' deep she was now at 99' - so he didn't have enough bottom time. He finally got around to raising her 3 years later after buying the title from the insurance co. 2 months after she sank we found our C25 - and obviously picked a fixed keel!..."
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tomD
may you never find out
As mentioned by others, I have stood on the inside of the cockpit lockers with the mainsheet jammed in, closehauled, and the boat rounded up and saved us. The spreaders were not in the water but quite close (2'). I am not sure if the locking mechanism for the keel, which is a friction brake really, is up to the challenge of a broach. I would not bet on it. My boring suggestion is to put a reef in the main when things get wild, the boat can take 30 knots with one reef in, a 110 jib, and a crew that's alert to what could happen. You are not going to lose any speed and it's alot easier on the standing rigging and the crew.
As mentioned by others, I have stood on the inside of the cockpit lockers with the mainsheet jammed in, closehauled, and the boat rounded up and saved us. The spreaders were not in the water but quite close (2'). I am not sure if the locking mechanism for the keel, which is a friction brake really, is up to the challenge of a broach. I would not bet on it. My boring suggestion is to put a reef in the main when things get wild, the boat can take 30 knots with one reef in, a 110 jib, and a crew that's alert to what could happen. You are not going to lose any speed and it's alot easier on the standing rigging and the crew.
G
George B.
They Sail a Lot Better with the Stick Pointing Up
I think the AYBC standard that the 22 is built to is either 90 or 110 degrees. I've been knocked down to at least 80 degrees in San Francisco Bay. (There is a point in time when you are no longer looking at the clinometer.) However, I did see the boom end drag in the water. (I had blown the mainsheet, but the jibsheet was still sheeted in.) The leward winch went under water and we took around ten gallons of seawater in the cabin (hatch slide was closed and two boards in place). I don't think I had any water back filling the jib. All things considered, the boat righted itself fairly quickly. Some things to note: One, as you go over, speed bleeds off to zero pretty quickly and the wind will push the boat notably to leward. Two, we weren't prepared for the counter roll which almost threw us overboard. And finally, It wasn't that much fun. The cabin looked like it went through the spin cycle, Water went inside the outboard's cover, which rusted the plugs. Rigging definitely was over stressed. (I broke the headstay later that summer.) On a practical note, be prepared to ease the main at the first sign of trouble and vang in to control it's shape when the wind picks up. I think that the boat sails best up to twenty degrees of heel. After that, you're trading speed for thrills.
I think the AYBC standard that the 22 is built to is either 90 or 110 degrees. I've been knocked down to at least 80 degrees in San Francisco Bay. (There is a point in time when you are no longer looking at the clinometer.) However, I did see the boom end drag in the water. (I had blown the mainsheet, but the jibsheet was still sheeted in.) The leward winch went under water and we took around ten gallons of seawater in the cabin (hatch slide was closed and two boards in place). I don't think I had any water back filling the jib. All things considered, the boat righted itself fairly quickly. Some things to note: One, as you go over, speed bleeds off to zero pretty quickly and the wind will push the boat notably to leward. Two, we weren't prepared for the counter roll which almost threw us overboard. And finally, It wasn't that much fun. The cabin looked like it went through the spin cycle, Water went inside the outboard's cover, which rusted the plugs. Rigging definitely was over stressed. (I broke the headstay later that summer.) On a practical note, be prepared to ease the main at the first sign of trouble and vang in to control it's shape when the wind picks up. I think that the boat sails best up to twenty degrees of heel. After that, you're trading speed for thrills.
A
Al
Winds were running 10-15; a sustained gust of 30-35 was running ahead of a sudden, short lived rainstorm... exciting way to get reintroduced to lake sailing after many years. Great boat!
T
Ted
What is the point of discomfort?
This thread brings up the question of what conditions of wind speed and wave height are people uncomfortable sailing? I realize that this is a matter of experience. In my two years I can now handle 20mph and 1.5 foot waves with the main reefed.
This thread brings up the question of what conditions of wind speed and wave height are people uncomfortable sailing? I realize that this is a matter of experience. In my two years I can now handle 20mph and 1.5 foot waves with the main reefed.
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