Heel and Helm Help

[Mac Bentley]

I need to keep the heeling in check for the boat's namesake and it would be nice to hold down the weather helm as well. I've read this forum for a year and a half and just get confused because so many answers entail equipment I don't have.I have an h23 with a Francespar mast that is raked too far, but with a roller furler on the foresail I'm not ready to tackle that yet (see pic, mine's the Leaning Tower of Pisa). I have a traveler that runs in front of the companionway and fairlead tracks (again, see pic). The genoa appears to me about a 135, certainly seems a lot bigger than a 110, but I'm no expert. It's a fractional rig. And a topping lift. No boomvang. I have a backstay but it's not tight because the masthead seem far enough aft already.I'd like to know how to set up for close haul and beam reach. I've pretty much figured out the traveler needs to be leeward on a beam reach so I can flatten the mainsail with the mainsheet. But I have no idea what to do with the fairleads.I'm assuming both sails are pretty well blown out, but my only basis for that is they don't look particularly new.Any help will be greatly appreciated.Mac

 

[Jeff D]

Mast Rake

If your mast is the one I think it is in the picture, I would start by tightening up the forestay if there is any adjustment on the turnbuckle. Check your owners manual for tuning instructions. You should have just a slight bit of windward helm if it is tuned right. Reducing sail is always a good place to start once the rig is tuned. Do you have a reefing point on your main? That would help. Furling in your headsail partially should be your 1st step and then a reef. The leads for the headsail should move progressively further back set back to flatten the sail as the wind increases. By the way, the backstay adjuster is not there to rake the mast but to bend it and flatten the mainsail so tighten that up as the wind increases. This is a real simple reply. Yes your sails probably are blown out but you should be able to make the boat sail better despite that.Go to your local library and check out a few books on sailing, especially ones that address tuning rigs.I don't know if you have the B&R rig but here are the tuning instructions from the reference library on this site.

 

[sailsinger]

The Rudder Plays a Part Too

Mac,In addition to the mast rake, the rudder position, or how far down your rudder is, also plays a part. You must have the rudder down all the way (the line tightened as far as possible) to reduce weather helm. I have historically had a problem with this and solved ot by placing a bungee cord around the rudder at the split between the aluminum frame and the lower fibreglass portion. I found the weather helm to go way down when the rudder was forced down./ChuckS/V Windsongs85 H23

 

[Rich L]

roller furler and mast rake

Chuck is right on about the rudder being all the way down or you'll have arm seizing weather helm.When I bought my H26, the mast rake was way too much. Basically, the prev owner just slapped it on. The turnbuckle didn't help. I had to cut the head stay and have a new fitting swaged on the end. Then I had halyard wrap problems, so I had to install a Harken halyard restrainer. The foil was also too long then, so I had to use a Dremel tool to carefully cut it shorter. Major hassle.

 

[David11054]

Sail condition

Dacron sails are blown out when they feel soft, and are silent when they are furled/flaked.If there is life left in your sails, they will crackle when handled or flaked.If you have a sail loft in the area, a good sailmaker would be willing to come to your boat and assess your sails for you at no charge.A blown out sail will be a major contributor to heeling and weather helm. When we bought our new mainsail for our '77 h27, heel was reduced 5 degrees, and speed increased a knot in the same (12 knot) winds!Nevertheless, I would get the rake right before I tried anything beyond flattening the sail, which you are already working on.DavidLady Lillie

 

[Hunter 23 303]

You've got to have your hands full

Mac the you way your boat is set up you have got to have your hands full. Everybody here has given you some great advice. I never could keep my rudder all the way down, the line would strech and the original cleat slipped so I just drilled a hole and pinned it down so it couldn't ride up. This made a world of differance. I've read that it was a common problem that the H23s came with too long of a forestay. Try to tighten the forestay turnbuckle all the way down, if that dosen't do it, you will need to have it shortened. Check the photo/project forum for a simple way to make your traveler adjustable that will give you a quick way to dump the main to leeward and keep your boat on it's feet, not on it's ear. That gives your crew something to do and keeps them happy.

 

[Dave Noack]

A little more advice

I had the same problem as you're having with my 87 h23 Z-Spar mast. The thing i found most helpful, after trying about eveything suggested here, and they are all good suggestions, was mast rake. What i found on my rig was in order to tighten the forestay to bring the mast forward i also had to loosen the shrouds, otherwise tightening the forestay only bent the mast. What I did was level the boat(it was on the trailer) use the main halyard as a plumbbob and gradually bring the mast forward by loosening the shrouds and then tightening the forestay, making sure when finished that the shrouds still had correct tension. Since doing this at the beginning of last season my weather helm and excessive healing problems all but dissapeared since it was then much easier to balance the sails. My audible clinometer (1st mate) almost never emits that shrill warning sound anymore.Fair WindsDave Noackh23 "Wind Dreamer"

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

Weather helm versus unbalanced rudder

Mac, you got a lot of good advice in this thread. Your hesitation to tackle the mast rake problem is understandable. Few sailors like to mess around with forestays and shrouds. As you may have figured out by now, there may be no easy way around that, however. My primary reason for posting here is to avoid potential bewilderment in case your rudder is indeed contributing to your woes. If the rudder is not fully extended down there could be insufficient wetted area in front of the imaginary line (or rather "lateral plane") extending down through the rudder shaft to produce a more or less "balanced rudder". In that case you will always be fighting the rudder as soon as your vessel has some speed and you want to move the rudder away from the center position.This has nothing to do with "weather helm", which is caused by the vessel's COE (Center of Effort) falling behind (or to the side of) the CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance). There is plenty of information in the HOW archives and on the internet at large on the topic of weather helm. Suffice it to say that the direction of weather helm is dependent upon the strength of the wind and on which tack you are on. Secondly, your vessel will not track straight unless you move the helm to weather by a certain number of degrees.An unbalanced (more accurately: underbalanced) rudder has nothing to do with the vessel's COE and next to nothing with it's CLR. It's effect on the helm is only dependent on boat speed. Wind strength or sail area have no direct effect (other than via their effect on speed) and thus even a powerboat can have a severely unbalanced rudder. Finally, there is no particular rudder angle which keeps the vessel tracking straight "in the groove". Instead, with the rudder centered there should be little or no pressure on the helm and the vessel should track straight. The more you move the rudder away from the center, however, the more force you have to apply to the helm prevent it from being pushed back.This does not mean, of course, that a sailing vessel could not suffer from both problems. Unless you are able to distinguish the two, however, the more frustrated you are likely to get when trying to come up with a solution.Hope you will find a way to solve your problems and start enjoying your new toy!Flying Dutchman

 

[Franklin]

Easy

If it's the rudder, then the boat will have a helm when it's motoring. If it doesn't, then I would have to say it has something to do with the sails. I've found that on a light day it's easy to figure out if your rig is balanced. It would be easy to balance the sails if the rig is balanced on a light day. On a windy day it's much harder because of the heel and any reefing your doing may not be the same on the sails.I'm no expert but balanced sails mean a lot to me because I only have a st4000 autopilot and I sail alone so balance is the key to a relaxing day on the water.

 

[Wanderer138]

All that and more

I agree with everything so far as causes of weather helm. I would also add the shallow keel, the beamy hull shape aft and the boat's light weight to that list. The H23 is easily overpowered, so I'd say inattention to mainsail trim is the main cause of weather helm on this boat. A few facts:1) H23 mast is taller than most 22-25 ft boats2) the mainsail is large and powerful3) the mainsheet tackle is powerfulThe H23 main is like a big weathervane trying to turn the bow up into the wind. This is what you are fighting with the rudder. The solution is either reduce the weathervane effect, by reducing either the sail area (reef) or its power (trim).The basic controls for reducing mainsail power are the outhaul (tighter outhaul flattens bottom third of sail) and mainsheet (reduced tension means less downward pull on boom and less tension on the leech, which allows the sail to open and spill air off the top). In heavy air, more attention has to be paid to the main. It can be eased in gusts until the jib starts to backwind it a bit. It looks odd but the boat will be still be on its feet and your S.O. won't be screaming. Better yet, why not let her trim the mainsheet?The next level of control is the traveler. It allows adjustment of the sail's angle of attack without changing the leech tension. The mainsheet cannot separate these two functions. A backstay adjuster also falls into this category. Tightening the backstay on the H23 bends the mast, This does two things at once; flattens the middle third of the sail and reduces leech tension even more. VERY useful. Even better, when you turn off the wind, easing the backstay straightens the mast, which deepens or "cups" the sail for more power downwind.The final level of control is tuning the standing rigging. Easing the lower shrouds slightly and tightening the uppers puts more pre-bend into the mast. Same effect as tensioning the backstay, but you have four controls to adjust instead of one. This is best done at the dock before you leave, to suit the weather conditions that day.One other resource that's often overlooked is weight. You'd be surprised at how much better the boat will sail if you sit on the coaming instead of down in the cockpit. A tiller extension is cheap and easy to install.These modifications are not difficult and some don't cost anything. It's just a case of using what you have more effectively. Sorry this was so long. Good luck.PeterH23 "Raven"

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

Excellent discussion, Peter

Should be required reading for all newbees struggling with mainsail trim issues!Flying Dutchman

 

[Wanderer138]

More on sail trim...and thanks, Henk

Over the last few years I've really tried to understand why sails work the way they do, so that I can make them do what I want when I want. I figured it can't be that hard, as the techniques were developed hundreds of years ago by simple, "uneducated" working sailors.Attached below is a link to a post I made a few months back on the same subject. That post had a few definitions that might be helpful for newer sailors.The photo is of me sailing Raven on a close reach on a pretty windy day. We were on a lake with no waves, so I didn't need a lot of power. Note the following:1) open leeches on the main and jib2) tops of sails spilling wind3) bottoms of sails trimmed right4) the mast is bent5) I'm relaxing in the cockpit6) the boat is comfortably heeled7) the tiller is near center (very little weather helm)The sails don't LOOK properly trimmed, but they were trimmed for comfort, not for looks.PeterH23 "Raven"

 

[George H260]

Excellant, Peter

Great posts! I think I have learned more about my H23 from you then I have learned in 20 yrs of small boat sailing.You should write, have you considered? I'm sure I'm not the only one that eagerly waits for your posts.Thankyou, George

 

[Dave]

Second that!

I will have to second that. Peter you are a real asset to this forum I have learned an amazing amount about the h23 from you.

 

[Cliff]

Check the Archive's

If you check the Archives I have posted allot on setting up the 23 and racing the 23. I think it was a few years ago I did this. Getting the mast rake is key more than anything. This backstay came was too short from day one.Cliff

 

[Mac Bentley]

Thanks so much.

What a great body of information, especially when so many posts begin with praise for the advice already given.The mast rake is at the top of the list. Last weekend, I pulled the luff pin and tried to raise the furling drum but it would only come up an inch before hitting something within. Noticed a hose clamp down there, the kind you screw to tighten that we used to find on car engines; not sure what that's about. I plan to take the drum apart this weekend, even though I'm sure turnbuckles at best will only be a partial solution to the rake. I'm kind of frightened now as well, I've had the boat a year and a half and have not had a look at the forestay turnbuckles.Tightened the backstays as much as possible -- with turnbuckles -- and it's nowhere close to creating any bend.Both pleased and disappointed that I found my rudder already was hitched up tight.Mainsail has some crackle to it, so I figure it's still good enough for lake cruising.We're pulling the boat for vacation in early June so getting some machine-swaging done will be my first priority then. In the meantime I'll be working on the other areas so that my wife's enthusiasm for sailing won't be doused in 15 to 20 mph winds. I printed out this thread so she can take it with us and make sure I'm doing all the right things.Also printed out some old, old, old threads Cliff sent me after. They're so old, even Peter was still learning.Thanks again,MacSV Boodle

 

[Wanderer138]

I learned the hard way

Along with the help I got from Cliff (thanks again, man), I read a lot, tried some things on my own and made some mistakes. I learned a few things in the process.Hopefully by sharing my experiences, I can help you spend less time on the learning curve and more time on the water. Happy sailing.PeterH23 "Raven"