Heavy Weather

[Daveinet]

My real point was though, that there are a ton of American built boats which claim to be blue water cruisers that are not - mainly because there is a substantial market that doesn't need to be blue water. Compared to Oz, which has almost no market for non-blue water boats. I get the impression that our coasts are normally a little more tame. Of course they can get nasty, but nasty is not the norm.

 

[jibes138]

My real point was though, that there are a ton of American built boats which claim to be blue water cruisers that are not - mainly because there is a substantial market that doesn't need to be blue water. Compared to Oz, which has almost no market for non-blue water boats. I get the impression that our coasts are normally a little more tame. Of course they can get nasty, but nasty is not the norm.

Can you give some examples of boats claiming to be blue water and let others express their concurrence or rejection of you hypothesis?

 

[MitchM]

saturday in 27 knots NE : had to motor over to our yard for haul out. winds on lake erie set up a 4 ft chop. motoring single handed over (sails already off) with jack lines harness and life vest on was scary. the rocking and rolling would have had me out of the cockpit had i not been harnessed . coming into the dock portside at the yard was only possible because two good guys were there with boathooks to get my line over the cleat on the dock. thinking over this scenario, i should have had my line with a dockside loop lightly fixed to the rail so they could more easily be retrieved by the shore guys with boat hooks. i was simultaneously trying to throw the breast -stern line, run the bow thruster, and use reverse on the engine to use prop wash to back my transom towards the dock. i am thinking next time if i absolutely have to come in in conditions like this, that i could attach the breast line outer loop over the (solid teak 30 inch high) handrail with a flimsy piece of string , so the guy on shore could snag my line more easily. (NB on this boat we run a continuous line from breast cleat to aft transom cleat. the line is just long enough that even if it gets in the water it cannot wrap around the prop. one guy on this line and me at the bow thruster can come in pretty easily as saturday proved.... )

i wish i had the skill to lasso a bollard with a stern line like the old sailors used to do. i saw a guy demonstrate this once at a boat show and was totally impressed. does any body use that technique? i'm worried that the line would fall in the water and get sucked around the prop shaft...

 

[MitchM]

Can you give some examples of boats claiming to be blue water and let others express their concurrence or rejection of you hypothesis?

'Blue water' is defined by the pros as Class A Ocean. A lot of factors go into this rating, amongst them is the capsize angle and maximum angle of recovery (IE how far over can the boat go, but still recover by coming up mast- up.?)

you can check various sources to see which boats are rated Class A Ocean, and which are rated only for Class B coastal cruising.

(our Nauticat 321 is class A Ocean rated . but fortunately we don't need that but occasionally on the Great Lakes.)

 

[MitchM]

More on CE Class A Ocean: USCG regs for recreation boats, especially sailboats are very minimal. The CE rating is based on Recreational Craft Directive rules for building boats in the EU. they are very complex and inclusive of almost everything that goes on a boat including capsize rating and angle of stability. The US and ABYC were represented on the committees that drew up CE rules through the ISO . The builder applies to a certifying body for the CE rating. in the US the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) is a certifying body for members who export to the EU. The certifying body exams the boat, performs tests and issues the appropriate certification.All boats sold in the EU have to be certified as to seakeeping abilities .
A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.
‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.
‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced. (US surveys-'coastal cruiser'-rating
‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters.
our nauticat 321 pilot house is Class A Ocean. our chesapeake light craft eastport pram tender is Class D.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Look over this thread from last year starting at the top, FYI, if you really wish to know.

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/who-needs-a-bluewater-boat.165789/#post-1147617

 

[Bad Obsession]

Blue water boats are one thing. I would bet that most people have coastal cruisers. Having a blue water boat is great if you are sailing true blue water but would having a blue water boat seem like overkill for coastal sailing? I often ponder that question. I tend to be a magnet for higher winds lately. Part of me thinks that it would be nice to have a strong heavy displacement boat. When the winds are light everyone sails slow or motors anyway but a light boat in rough water can be punishing. Imagine 8 hours of beating into 4 foot steep Chesapeake Bay waves, not fun and it takes its tole on you.

 

[Jackdaw]

'Blue water' is defined by the pros as Class A Ocean. A lot of factors go into this rating, amongst them is the capsize angle and maximum angle of recovery (IE how far over can the boat go, but still recover by coming up mast- up.?)

you can check various sources to see which boats are rated Class A Ocean, and which are rated only for Class B coastal cruising.

(our Nauticat 321 is class A Ocean rated . but fortunately we don't need that but occasionally on the Great Lakes.)

I disagree. The CE A-B-C-D rating focuses mainly on stability index, with little on construction techniques OR general seaworthiness.

By FAR the biggest factor in having a stability rating high enough for an A rating is boat length. That's because length matters more than anything else when it comes to stability. Its why you will never see a average production cruiser less than say 32 feet without a A rating, no matter how suspect its build. Nor will you see a well-found 24 footer with an A rating. Just too short.

Moral of the story, don't put too much stock or value in that impressive sounding 'A' rating. A LOT more goes into a boat to make it 'Blue Water'.

 

[Daveinet]

And kind of the point of my post at the top of this page. My previous 17 foot American Fiberglass Mini Toner claimed to be a blue water cruiser in the advertising pamphlet. I wouldn't put too much stock in any manufacturer claim.

 

[Kings Gambit]

We discussed some of this a couple of years ago. Essentially, the Category A rating means, in addition to what is mentioned above, that the cockpit sole is a certain minimum height above the water line and that it drains at a certain minimum rate. Also, that there are escape hatches amidships and forward large enough for an adult, even a big one, to exit through, etc. The seakeeping capabilities of the hull I do not believe are much of a factor, etc. Force 8 is only gale conditions, and 20-ft seas are small compared to what people have reported having had dealt with in the "heavy weather" of the open sea.

 

[JamesG161]

I did see a testing video of my Hunter 43', in which a crane pushed the mast under 6' of water with the main and head sail full of water. No water in cabin and cockpit was about 30% full of water.
The mast was then released and the boat self righted, over wobbled about 6 foot off center at mast (65') top. Then return to dead center. Cockpit drained fast and sails emptied easily. I am betting that was part of how the boat go CE A rating.

Fine and dandy... Good Demo...

However my body is only rated for CE C
Jim...

 

[jibes138]

Read "Fastnet Force 10." Lots of boats considered coastal cruisers were abandoned only to be found floating around after the storm. The moral of that story seems to be the people can take far less than an average production boat can take. Another interesting story is I think Webb Chiles took off for a sail around the world in a coastal cruiser. The boat soon suffered a major fracture in the hull requiring constant bailing for thousands of miles. http://www.amazon.ca/STORM-PASSAGE-Alone-Around-Cape-ebook/dp/B004JHYMIG

 

[Jackdaw]

Read "Fastnet Force 10." Lots of boats considered coastal cruisers were abandoned only to be found floating around after the storm. The moral of that story seems to be the people can take far less than an average production boat can take. Another interesting story is I think Webb Chiles took off for a sail around the world in a coastal cruiser. The boat soon suffered a major fracture in the hull requiring constant bailing for thousands of miles. http://www.amazon.ca/STORM-PASSAGE-Alone-Around-Cape-ebook/dp/B004JHYMIG

Not quite.

The vast majority of the boats that were abandoned in the 79 Fastnet had been inverted by waves, and the crew found that event so harrowing and dangerous that they felt the liferaft was going to be SAFER. They felt that they were going to be killed by loose floorboards and large cans of baked beans. Go take a look on your boat and see how much stuff would fly around in an inversion.

New ocean racers have to pass this test with the crew inside.

If you have time, watch this vid. Actual shots from a production cruiser as it inverts. NO WAY I wanna be in there.

 

[jibes138]

No argument here Jack but I doubt you'd find most "bluewater" boats to be all that different in terms of owners having stuff loose that could fly around. Books, cushions, pots, pans, stuff in the chart table, fire extinguishers not strapped down, etc, etc, I don't care what you call your boat, the ocean sinks lots of boats. From 1990 to 1997, 99 bulk carriers were lost at sea (ref. The Wave, page 112). The Norwegian Dawn cruise ship in 2007 was hit by a 70 foot wave that ripped Jacuzzis off the deck and smashed windows and flooded cabins while heading to New York from the Bahamas. Best of luck in a blue water cruiser. As Clint Eastwood once said, "you have to know your limitations."
Picture your movie but not in calm waters and the effect of a washing machine getting hit by say 20 or thirty foot waves every 12 seconds or so especially with confused seas that were breaking. All that stuff would just keep flying around and you'd be so busy hanging on you'd have no time to stop any of it. Terrifying.

 

[Jackdaw]

No argument here Jack but I doubt you'd find most "bluewater" boats to be all that different in terms of owners having stuff loose that could fly around. Books, cushions, pots, pans, stuff in the chart table, fire extinguishers not strapped down, etc, etc, I don't care what you call your boat, the ocean sinks lots of boats. From 1990 to 1997, 99 bulk carriers were lost at sea (ref. The Wave, page 112). The Norwegian Dawn cruise ship in 2007 was hit by a 70 foot wave that ripped Jacuzzis off the deck and smashed windows and flooded cabins while heading to New York from the Bahamas. Best of luck in a blue water cruiser. As Clint Eastwood once said, "you have to know your limitations."

No, I agree with you that most abandon ships occur because the people can't take it even if it is likely the boat will not sink. In the Fastnet case (and with most cruisers I'm sure) the boats were not set up for inverting and crap is going to flying everywhere. Boats inverting usually destroys the rig and ends the voyage. Jury rig is sometimes possible but often the best option is to abandon. The hull, unless it is holed or taken ashore, will often survive (aka still floating) the storm.

In the past 12 months I've had two sets of sailing friends pulled via USCG helo off boats that were found floating the next day. Both times the story was the same. The coasties said we can come and get you RIGHT NOW, or its 12-36 hours of you in the washing machine before we can try again.

 

[Kings Gambit]

It's not an easy thing to do, but after extensive reading on the outcomes of inversions /roll overs, it's become my opinion that boats heading offshore for extended periods where "heavy weather" is a real possibility should secure the boat in preparation for one or more. Anything that opens "from the top" (e.g., reefers, nav tables, lockers, underbunk stowage areas, bilges via floorboards, etc.) should be secured via strong latches. Should be able to clear the deck of all stuff which itself can be stowed. There should be room in the lockers for all loose stuff in the boat, etc. Live the "spartan life" until heavy weather passes.

 

[dziedzicmj]

For those who are interested, I suggest reading "Surviving the Storm" and "Mariner's Weather handbook" by Steve and Linda Dashew. They are available as books, ebooks and even as free PDFs (e.g. here).