heavy weather sailing

Ross · Oct 24, 2008

ChuckThomas said:
Stillraining and N&E,
Stillraining, I have already drank the sixpack. The bad part now is that I am ready to spend lots of money on her. I want new sails and new paint. Hard to justify on a 27 year old boat. But after sailing on others I think I am going to keep her a while.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

You say that you are satisfied with your boat and she needs new sails. All boats will need new sails just as all cars will need new tires. For less than a couple of thousand bucks you can put new sails on her and a new coat of paint. For that price could you get another boat with new sails and a fresh coat of paint?

CharlieCobra · Oct 24, 2008

Chuck, why is it hard to justify new sails on a 27 year old boat? Compared to mine (47 yrs old) yours is a puppy. Posts like this make me appreciate my rig and the detachable staysail stay. If it's over 25, I rig the staysail and furl the Genny. Since I have two reef points in the staysail, I'm good until 60 at least, that's as high as I've had her out in. I am considering going back to hanks for the Jib/Genoa to make sail changes easier though. Have any of ya ever tried to change headsails on a furler in 30+? It sucks!

I agree with the rest of these folks on you being better off with at least some headsail up for all the reasons mentioned. Figuring out how to best make that happen and work takes talking to your sailmaker and just getting out there in it to find out how. Good luck.

Stu Jackson · Oct 24, 2008

Does kph stand for what I think you mean?

knots are already that by definition. Long discussion of this in Latitude 38 years ago. Just use knots.

Great sailing description, great thread. Keep up the good work.

Ross · Oct 24, 2008

Stu Jackson said:
knots are already that by definition. Long discussion of this in Latitude 38 years ago. Just use knots.

Great sailing description, great thread. Keep up the good work.

Stu another one that pops up is RPMs.

newly anonymous · Oct 24, 2008

the problem most folks have with heavy-weather sailing...

...is that they don't really have heavy-weather gear. I agree that a triple-reef option is generally more valuable than a trisail, but I'm amazed at the number of boats that don't carry a storm jib. Here's a sail that's fairly inexpensive, even on larger boats, and that will transform the experience of sailing in 30-40 knots from one of out-of-control terror to one of being able to make the boat go where you want it to go WITH ALMOST NO WEATHER HELM.

If you don't think that's worth the investment, it's because you haven't yet been caught in the right conditions.

Stillraining · Oct 24, 2008

newly anonymous said:
...is that they don't really have heavy-weather gear. I agree that a triple-reef option is generally more valuable than a trisail, but I'm amazed at the number of boats that don't carry a storm jib. Here's a sail that's fairly inexpensive, even on larger boats, and that will transform the experience of sailing in 30-40 knots from one of out-of-control terror to one of being able to make the boat go where you want it to go WITH ALMOST NO WEATHER HELM.

If you don't think that's worth the investment, it's because you haven't yet been caught in the right conditions.

Mines on order and I'll be rigging up like Charlie described...

PS: It aint going to just sit in its bag either...if ya catch my drift..:stirthepot:

Ross · Oct 24, 2008

Stu Jackson said:
knots are already that by definition. Long discussion of this in Latitude 38 years ago. Just use knots.

Great sailing description, great thread. Keep up the good work.

Just for fun I looked up the origins for knots as for speed. Knots or marks are made 47 feet 3 inches apart on a line wound onto a reel. When the chip is dropped a 28 second timer is started and the number of knots indicates speed. Knots per hour at six knots would be 771.4 , Not that it matters .

Stillraining · Oct 24, 2008

Ross..I stumbled on that info a while back and thought to myself....why the heck are we still using knots then anyway...seems silly to me really

Ross · Oct 24, 2008

Stillraining said:
Ross..I stumbled on that info a while back and thought to myself....why the heck are we still using knots then anyway...seems silly to me really

I guess for the same reasons that we use miles, yards, feet, inches, rods, furlongs etc. we gotta call them something.

TimCup · Oct 24, 2008

Chuck- thanks for a great post-

One of the best I've read in weeks. LOTS of great info. Thanks guys.

cup

ps- had a H33 cherubini- loved it, built like a tank in those days (1979), with a nice layout. Buy the sails- the boats good for another 30 years...

Franklin · Oct 24, 2008

I will not buy a storm head sail. Why? My boat is a fractional rig with both main and headsail furling. I've sailed in 33 knots offshore with just half of my headsail and still did 5 knots while beating into the waves and that was before I got my new sails with the foam luff (it furls with much better shape now). Sure it didn't have great shape, but good enough.

However, I've found that it's much better on my boat when offshore to go with 25%-40% of my main out instead as the boat rides more stable. That's the great thing about fractional rigs with furling mains, you can take just about anything without having to drop or raise any sail.

As for the storm sails, have you ever tried to put one on while in open waters and high winds? I've seen people have difficultly with them at the dock with no wind. Just imagine adding 20+ knots of wind (30+ if you wait too late like most will) and waves bouncing the bow up and down like the stock market. There are other options if it gets so strong that 50% of the jib (fractional rig) or 3rd reefed main (masthead rig) only is too much: Drop anchor, Run with it bear poles, engine and bare polls, Heave-to, Lie ahull, and last resort...drogue in open waters.

Now in the original situation, IMHO, it wasn't too bad for 3rd reef main and 2-3 feet of headsail (yes, that 2-3 feet would help but may have to fall off) but he played it safe and did a mainsail heave-to. He had enough room for that so that worked well for him but considering it was a race, most racers would have kept going on the 3rd reefed main. No way in ___ would a single handler be up on the bow in those conditions trying to put on a storm sail, even in protected waters.

The problem with trying to point in heavy winds, maybe more then what he experienced, is that it becomes very hard to produce enough forward push from the sails to fight off the backward push against the hull. At some point, the force against the hull is going to be too much and it will stop the boat and turn it, regardless of what you do. So keep that in mind when you start worrying about heavy winds and if you have enough water behind you.

As my mentor has told me many times, single handlers have to plain ahead much more then normal sailors.

bffatcat · Oct 24, 2008

Opinion on the gale Sail

After reading some of the posts about the gale sail seems to me you would be not any worse off with a storm jib with luff tape. On the Gale Sail you have to go forward tie up the clew and if its up high thats not gonna be any fun in a blow. Than remove the jib sheets and hank the gale sail on over the rolled up jib. With the storm jib you have to unfurl the genoa drop it than hoist the storm jib on the furler track. I dont see where there is that much effort saved
with the gale sail. And nobody mentioned that you need two jib halyards to use the gail sail

Stillraining · Oct 24, 2008

Great info Franklin...I was impressed with his single handling the situation myself...we had some crew aboard and a usable engine so it was quite different..not enough experience to risk putting any more sail up as we had very little sea room...and 47 knt gusts

Let me preamble all my statements of heavy weather sailing in the fact that I sail in protected waters...90% of the time we can/could run for cover somewhere so if I ever sound too exuberant about wanting to sail in Gale conditions keep that in mind please.

We left the dock in SCA's and in those cases from now on my storm sail will already be rigged with its permanent sheets already ran aft ready to go..there will be little need to go forward as I will also permanently rig a down haul on it as well..

My desire for a storm sail is three fold
1) Zero risk of furler line parting on rolled up head sail
2) Reduced forward windage pushing you off the wind ( I think I will point higher..there again won't know till I try )
3) Moves center of effort aft improving weather helm ( Probably not using correct terms)

Finally
I cant stress enough how different sailing here is..I fully plan on sailing in 60 as Charlie has..but it will be on purpose and well planed when I do.

Just some more thoughts

I am not rich..I don't want to destroy my boat ..but unlike allot of you I don't live on it ..its a toy for my enjoyment...so I can take some risks others are not willing to take if I screw up... and nor would I by the way if it was my home...I don't think..

My heavy weather sailing will be for learning and for fun not for racing and pushing the boat to her absolute limits..it will be all geared toward learning control of the boat to maintain forward motion and find out that point where that progress ends and running or heaving-to is the only option..I just have to know..
I wont be flying kites in big winds or stuff like that that, as that is not my goal...my goal is finding out where Eagle knight tells me " That's enough skipper lets go home" My job is to always make sure I give her a home to go to....to me that's being a sailor.

So far this discussion has been very positive unlike some I have been in where it turns into an emotional and opinionated mud slinging..to the point of me leaving the discussion or forum altogether..

We all want great advice to chew on and evaluate...few of us want tirade's into behavioral choices.

Sorry for getting off topic but I'm on my soap box over this particular subject due to exactly it happening to me.

I personally would love to hear from allot more of you experienced in 40+ stuff..and for those that disagree with the concept please just ignore this thread.:naughty:

Stillraining · Oct 24, 2008

bffatcat said:
After reading some of the posts about the gale sail seems to me you would be not any worse off with a storm jib with luff tape. On the Gale Sail you have to go forward tie up the clew and if its up high thats not gonna be any fun in a blow. Than remove the jib sheets and hank the gale sail on over the rolled up jib. With the storm jib you have to unfurl the genoa drop it than hoist the storm jib on the furler track. I dont see where there is that much effort saved
with the gale sail. And nobody mentioned that you need two jib halyards to use the gail sail

bffatcat

I totally plan on leaving my geona furled up and remain hoisted in all my storm sailing..I mentioned some where before that it got rolled up so doggone tight in the process of furling it that I literately had to add 6 turns to the drum once back at the dock...If you can get it this tight I truly believe it would take hurricane force winds to even think about dislodging it...Yes I have seen the pictures

...I could be wrong but am willing to lose a sail finding out...I also realize I will lose some weatherability for that decision...I am basically a lazy sailor I want to find out the limits of my boat within my Laziness not enter into survival mode.
My storm stay sail will be on a removable inter stay and will be sheeted through is own cars on tracks for that purpose which are currently inboard of the geona track that are on the toe rail... so there will be zero need to un-sheet anything in my case.

Chuck...FWIW...I think you have a great boat and if mine wouldn't think twice about spending bunches on her...not a lot of people like my brand either..I put quite a bit into her last year and will do so several times again who cares.....

Franklin · Oct 24, 2008

As far as I know, not much. The foam doesn't protrude much so disturbing the airfoil doesn't seem to be an issue and it was a racing sail maker that suggested it and he's very proud of his sails and I like them too

The added cost was $250.

BTW: you'll love the new sails. I hit hull speed often but never hit it in 4 years with my old sails.

Franklin · Oct 24, 2008

bffatcat said:
After reading some of the posts about the gale sail seems to me you would be not any worse off with a storm jib with luff tape.

Opps...sorry. My jib is a storm jib (105)

I was thinking gale jib. Those things are terrible.

s sauer · Oct 24, 2008

Since I single hand fairly often and have multiple headsails on luff tapes (not on a furler), I need to make a sail selection for the wind conditions ahead of time or change down as soon as I think I need to.

I'd suggest you look for a smaller heavier used headsail in decent condition; perhaps a 100 or 110% Jib and put that on the furler when you expect winds over 20 kts.
At that point the 110 and a single reef should take you thru to 25 knots and the second reef should be ok to 30 if you can flaten the sails and drop the traveler.

The 33 is much heavier than my 28.5 and should be manageable single handing at those wind speeds with a decent 110; still you are making the right choices to have a harness and tether when singlehanding in those wind speeds.

bffatcat · Oct 25, 2008

I agree with S Sauer

If conditions look a bit iffy I change down to a 100% working jib before leaving my mooring. Ive been caught out a few times with a huge genoa in the last 40 years due to unexpected localized conditions. I reefed my main first
and if that didnt do it I took the main down. Ive always owned mast head rigged boats which sailed fine on jib alone.