I have a Cherubini 33 that I sail on SF Bay, where the summer winds are consistently 25 kts with gusts in the lower 30's while in "the slot." I'm having a hard time finding the best sail trim for heavy conditions. It seems like I always put a reef in the mainsail when later I wish I would've reefed the headsail (roller furling). Or vice versa. I just can't get the balance right. I sail with a 110% furling jib and a main with two reef points. What is your sail plan as the wind pipes up with this boat? Which do you reef first: headsail or mainsail? If the wind continues to build, then what? I've sailed with just headsail before, and instead of lee helm in the gusts, the boat rounds up(!). Has anyone sailed with just mainsail? How does the boat respond-- while reaching, running, or beating? Any other advice or considerations would be welcome. I just can't seem to get this boat right yet. Chris.......................
Heavy Weather Sail Trim: Cherubini 33
- Thread starter jackson2191
- Start date
- Status
Heavy wind
The 33 is a full mast head rig like many sailboats today. with this configuration the power is in the foresail. The main is directional and offers as you said balance to the sail plan. In heavy winds I first move the traveler leeward as far as possible. Then put in one or two reefs in the main as you have done. Having a boom vang, made a large difference in boat handling. The vang pulls down and flattens the main allowing the wind to fall off the edge instead of heeling the boat over. If you do not have a boom vang, it is the first addition you should make to the boat. After that, all that is left is to depower the foresail by rolling it in. If you constantly have to much power you might consider a smaller foresail, however it seems you already have a reduced sail. I would talk to local sailers before buying another sail to see what they are using. Best of luck, I am sailing in 0-5 right now and envy your 25 kts. As far as points of sail. I try never to sail downwind - always tack off of true downwind sailing.
The 33 is a full mast head rig like many sailboats today. with this configuration the power is in the foresail. The main is directional and offers as you said balance to the sail plan. In heavy winds I first move the traveler leeward as far as possible. Then put in one or two reefs in the main as you have done. Having a boom vang, made a large difference in boat handling. The vang pulls down and flattens the main allowing the wind to fall off the edge instead of heeling the boat over. If you do not have a boom vang, it is the first addition you should make to the boat. After that, all that is left is to depower the foresail by rolling it in. If you constantly have to much power you might consider a smaller foresail, however it seems you already have a reduced sail. I would talk to local sailers before buying another sail to see what they are using. Best of luck, I am sailing in 0-5 right now and envy your 25 kts. As far as points of sail. I try never to sail downwind - always tack off of true downwind sailing.
Smaller Jib
Hi there ...I too sail SF Bay - since 1979 .....on my 1979-Hunter 33 -- Reefing was always a chore--- 1 on the main and 1 in the jib all summer long ....until 3 years ago when I was give a new Jib from a Knarr ---which is about 85% or less .... I now have no problem with a full main and the smaller jib..(wish I had thought of that years ago)..and only show a slight loss of speed .....it balances like a charm and will sail with a slight weather helm, when the wind picks up .... and even on light days, I still make it my only choice--visibility is better ..... sailing now is such a pleasure .....unfurled and no vang.... when I was learning I would take it out alone and sail with just the main or the jib alone .... and it handled OK (better with main, if I remember correctly)...... the 33 is a very forgiving boat.... going on 27 years and still in love with it .......Dick
Hi there ...I too sail SF Bay - since 1979 .....on my 1979-Hunter 33 -- Reefing was always a chore--- 1 on the main and 1 in the jib all summer long ....until 3 years ago when I was give a new Jib from a Knarr ---which is about 85% or less .... I now have no problem with a full main and the smaller jib..(wish I had thought of that years ago)..and only show a slight loss of speed .....it balances like a charm and will sail with a slight weather helm, when the wind picks up .... and even on light days, I still make it my only choice--visibility is better ..... sailing now is such a pleasure .....unfurled and no vang.... when I was learning I would take it out alone and sail with just the main or the jib alone .... and it handled OK (better with main, if I remember correctly)...... the 33 is a very forgiving boat.... going on 27 years and still in love with it .......Dick
Still Wondering
Thanks Paul and Dick for helping me on this. I've really appreciated your responses. Unfortunately, it seems like the advice is a little contradictory. Paul seems to say keep a full headsail, and reef the main as the wind pipes up (thanks for the advice about the vang-- that is one of the first improvements I made to the rig). Dick seems to say get a smaller headsail, which allows you to keep a full main. Is there a consensus on sail selection strategy in heavy weather? Chris.......................
Thanks Paul and Dick for helping me on this. I've really appreciated your responses. Unfortunately, it seems like the advice is a little contradictory. Paul seems to say keep a full headsail, and reef the main as the wind pipes up (thanks for the advice about the vang-- that is one of the first improvements I made to the rig). Dick seems to say get a smaller headsail, which allows you to keep a full main. Is there a consensus on sail selection strategy in heavy weather? Chris.......................
try this
if you reef the jib first then it sails ok then you did the right thing. if the boat wants to round up you got to much main. if you reef the main first then you could be ok. but it you get leward helm. the boat turns down then you got to much jib and not enough main. Its all about balance and what works in the conditions you have. so try one then try the other. If you got to much main up the boat will want to turn into the wind. and if you have too much jib up she will want to go down away from the wind. good sailors can steer the boat with this knowledge. more main up less main down. works for me!
if you reef the jib first then it sails ok then you did the right thing. if the boat wants to round up you got to much main. if you reef the main first then you could be ok. but it you get leward helm. the boat turns down then you got to much jib and not enough main. Its all about balance and what works in the conditions you have. so try one then try the other. If you got to much main up the boat will want to turn into the wind. and if you have too much jib up she will want to go down away from the wind. good sailors can steer the boat with this knowledge. more main up less main down. works for me!
Tried it-- that's why I started this thread
Thanks Ed. In fact, that's why I started this post. We were sailing across "the Slot" in the late afternoon when it was blowing 25 - 30 kts (as it usually does in the summer), under main w/2 reefs and full 110% jib. We were trying to hold a deep reach (about 120 degrees relative to the wind) but were having a hard time because we would keep rounding up. I had let the main out all the way until it was completely backwinded, yet we'd still round up. Knowing we were trying to deep reach, I yanked the main down entirely. This didn't solve the problem-- with the gusts we'd still round up (under just jib) and we had an incredibly hard time running deep. I thought we weren't going to make our destination (didn't know what we were going to do), but as we neared the city the wind calmed down and we were able to bear down to where we needed to go (towards Alameda). My experience up to now has been sailing and racing frac rigs (this is my first masthead). With fracs, due to the large main, the mast is set relatively far forward, which means the jib provides lots of lee helm. In this boat, with the main down and just jib, I still had weather helm. The weather helm was so bad I simply couldn't sail more than 110 degrees or so off the wind. That surprised the heck out of me since I grew up balancing boats just like you mentioned, Ed. But sounds like I need to learn something more about masthead rigs, or maybe this boat in particular, which is why I turned to this forum. Looking back at that experience: I'm starting to believe the weather helm could be due to the hull shape when heeled rather than the sail balance. Even under just jib, with large gusts the boat would heel significantly. As any sailboat heels the assymetrical underwater hull shape causes the boat to turn into the wind. I want to believe that this is what was happening, because I still want to believe that a jib-only setup, when sailed flat, induces lee helm. Comments? Other comments on how this boat sails under just main? With a roller furling jib, dousing the jib is soooo much easier that any reefs into the main, so I'm really interested in how the boat handles with just main. I am going out this weekend so unless anyone says any different I'll probably try it out myself. Chris......................
Thanks Ed. In fact, that's why I started this post. We were sailing across "the Slot" in the late afternoon when it was blowing 25 - 30 kts (as it usually does in the summer), under main w/2 reefs and full 110% jib. We were trying to hold a deep reach (about 120 degrees relative to the wind) but were having a hard time because we would keep rounding up. I had let the main out all the way until it was completely backwinded, yet we'd still round up. Knowing we were trying to deep reach, I yanked the main down entirely. This didn't solve the problem-- with the gusts we'd still round up (under just jib) and we had an incredibly hard time running deep. I thought we weren't going to make our destination (didn't know what we were going to do), but as we neared the city the wind calmed down and we were able to bear down to where we needed to go (towards Alameda). My experience up to now has been sailing and racing frac rigs (this is my first masthead). With fracs, due to the large main, the mast is set relatively far forward, which means the jib provides lots of lee helm. In this boat, with the main down and just jib, I still had weather helm. The weather helm was so bad I simply couldn't sail more than 110 degrees or so off the wind. That surprised the heck out of me since I grew up balancing boats just like you mentioned, Ed. But sounds like I need to learn something more about masthead rigs, or maybe this boat in particular, which is why I turned to this forum. Looking back at that experience: I'm starting to believe the weather helm could be due to the hull shape when heeled rather than the sail balance. Even under just jib, with large gusts the boat would heel significantly. As any sailboat heels the assymetrical underwater hull shape causes the boat to turn into the wind. I want to believe that this is what was happening, because I still want to believe that a jib-only setup, when sailed flat, induces lee helm. Comments? Other comments on how this boat sails under just main? With a roller furling jib, dousing the jib is soooo much easier that any reefs into the main, so I'm really interested in how the boat handles with just main. I am going out this weekend so unless anyone says any different I'll probably try it out myself. Chris......................
Could be Hull Shape
Good point about hull shape. Also, since sailing at 120 degrees or so means the sea may be behind,. Consider the effect of a quartering sea on the windward side of a heeled hull. We sailed Ocracoke to Swan Quarter last week, and our H30 rounded up consistently notwithstanding a deep reef in the main. I think that is due to the 4' chop riding up on us though, more than the puffs. Spotted Dog
Good point about hull shape. Also, since sailing at 120 degrees or so means the sea may be behind,. Consider the effect of a quartering sea on the windward side of a heeled hull. We sailed Ocracoke to Swan Quarter last week, and our H30 rounded up consistently notwithstanding a deep reef in the main. I think that is due to the 4' chop riding up on us though, more than the puffs. Spotted Dog
your on the right track/
chris. it sounds like you were just rounding up because of the heel. at some point the excessive heel will do it. and the last post is equally valid. you were obviously still overpowered so opening and rolling off the top of the jib would help that. lots of tension on the luff. get them both flat. other than that im in a quandry. Im not a 33 owner so thats not much help. I have a 37c and its alot different.
chris. it sounds like you were just rounding up because of the heel. at some point the excessive heel will do it. and the last post is equally valid. you were obviously still overpowered so opening and rolling off the top of the jib would help that. lots of tension on the luff. get them both flat. other than that im in a quandry. Im not a 33 owner so thats not much help. I have a 37c and its alot different.
Quick Thought .......
You are getting a lot of good advice ...... I was wondering ........have you tuned your mast lately ........it can make a difference with the helm that you are experiencing ..... in addition to the balancing of the sail pattern ........
You are getting a lot of good advice ...... I was wondering ........have you tuned your mast lately ........it can make a difference with the helm that you are experiencing ..... in addition to the balancing of the sail pattern ........
Hunters and Heavy Wind
Chris, I sail from South Beach on a Hunter 31 and have gone through the same experiences you are having. I'm not sure if my experience on a 31 relates directly to your 33, but here's what I've found. I have a 100% high clew jib and an extended battan main. I can carry full sail comfortably up to 18 knots apparent. At 20 knots I need a reef in the main, but I usually go right to the 2nd reef because one reef is only good to about 23 knots. At 20 knots, I lose about 15% of the jib as well. At 25 knots, I'm down to about 60% of the jib. Above 25, I drop the main completely. I know that seems odd. It's counter to everything I've learned and taught about sail plan and balance, but for my boat, it works. I've sailed across the slot in sustained 35 knot winds with just that little bit of jib and the boat has stayed balanced with a light helm. Carrying the wind aft of beam, I find that a reduced main alone (above 18 knots apparent) gives me the best balance. In lighter air, I'll pole out the jib, or if it's a long downwind run, I'll hoist the cruising spinnaker (to about 13 knots apparent) I'll also mention that I have an offshore dodger as well, so I do have some windage aft of the mast. If I were to sum it up, I guess I'm always carrying smaller sail area then I think I should, but the boat handles better and moves well. My suggestion would be to start small and work up. Pick a day when you expect the wind to pipe up, get out there with a double reef in the main and a small amount of jib. Find an area of 20 knot winds (in the lee of Alcatraz for example) and try letting out more jib until the boat starts to act squirrelly. Keep playing around in those 20 knot breezes until you find the combination that works for your boat. And don't be afraid to try unconventional combinations! - Richard S/V Discovery
Chris, I sail from South Beach on a Hunter 31 and have gone through the same experiences you are having. I'm not sure if my experience on a 31 relates directly to your 33, but here's what I've found. I have a 100% high clew jib and an extended battan main. I can carry full sail comfortably up to 18 knots apparent. At 20 knots I need a reef in the main, but I usually go right to the 2nd reef because one reef is only good to about 23 knots. At 20 knots, I lose about 15% of the jib as well. At 25 knots, I'm down to about 60% of the jib. Above 25, I drop the main completely. I know that seems odd. It's counter to everything I've learned and taught about sail plan and balance, but for my boat, it works. I've sailed across the slot in sustained 35 knot winds with just that little bit of jib and the boat has stayed balanced with a light helm. Carrying the wind aft of beam, I find that a reduced main alone (above 18 knots apparent) gives me the best balance. In lighter air, I'll pole out the jib, or if it's a long downwind run, I'll hoist the cruising spinnaker (to about 13 knots apparent) I'll also mention that I have an offshore dodger as well, so I do have some windage aft of the mast. If I were to sum it up, I guess I'm always carrying smaller sail area then I think I should, but the boat handles better and moves well. My suggestion would be to start small and work up. Pick a day when you expect the wind to pipe up, get out there with a double reef in the main and a small amount of jib. Find an area of 20 knot winds (in the lee of Alcatraz for example) and try letting out more jib until the boat starts to act squirrelly. Keep playing around in those 20 knot breezes until you find the combination that works for your boat. And don't be afraid to try unconventional combinations! - Richard S/V Discovery
Hunters and Heavy Wind
I have a 1981 Hunter 25 so this may not apply, but. Over the week end I did some experiments. On Saturday we had light winds 6-8 knts. With my 155 and full main and less then 10 deg of heel the boat reponded just like the book says. Sheet in the main for more weather helm, etc. On Sunday the wind picked up to 12-15 ktns with higher gusts. With no main and just the 155 genny the boat would heel over 20 deg. When the boat heels you get weather helm. I furled the genny to about a 120. this reduced the heel and the weather helm. I raised the main. this helps the boat point better. I played the main traveler in the gusts and got a very fast ride. Drop the traveler in gusts to reduce heel and weather helm and power through the waves. then raise the traveler to center to point better. The boat felt good, and the helm was much better balanced. Bob
I have a 1981 Hunter 25 so this may not apply, but. Over the week end I did some experiments. On Saturday we had light winds 6-8 knts. With my 155 and full main and less then 10 deg of heel the boat reponded just like the book says. Sheet in the main for more weather helm, etc. On Sunday the wind picked up to 12-15 ktns with higher gusts. With no main and just the 155 genny the boat would heel over 20 deg. When the boat heels you get weather helm. I furled the genny to about a 120. this reduced the heel and the weather helm. I raised the main. this helps the boat point better. I played the main traveler in the gusts and got a very fast ride. Drop the traveler in gusts to reduce heel and weather helm and power through the waves. then raise the traveler to center to point better. The boat felt good, and the helm was much better balanced. Bob
More Heavy Wind Observations
I took the boat out again last Saturday and experimented more with heavy-weather sailing. I promised to write about my experiences, both to reply to my own post and also to help others with these experiences. I have a mainsail with two reefs and a 100% high-clew, furling headsail. We sailed across "the Slot" in SF Bay twice, and beat towards the GG bridge. According to the weather station on Angel Island, we sailed in 29 - 31 kts each way, with gusts in the mid-to-high-30's. Here's what I found: 1) The boat sails poorly with just a full mainsail. With no jib, the boat doesn't heel much, but you don't go anywhere either. We could beat to weather, but only at about 2.5 knots. 2) A reefed jib helped with the heeling, but made it impossible to point. We kept the full main up, took three turns on the jib, and moved the fairleads forward to erase all wrinkles from the jib. Then, we put a reef into the main. We could sail well-balanced and the heeling was in control, but we simply couldn't point. We'd tack back and forth and not gain anything to windward. Speed was good. I'm wondering if this was due to my jib-- I've never been happy with the jib shape when reefed, even just a little bit. 3) With full headsail, the boat came to life and could point really well. 4) The best sail combination was the full jib with one reef in the main. With this combination we could point as well as anybody, except a J-105 who could sail a few degrees closer. We had to sheet in the jib hard though-- harder than we first imagined, and our fairleads were set pretty far back. That being said, we weren't spilling wind from the top of the jib. Our beating speed, hard on the wind, was about 6 kts, and heeling was between 20 and 25 degrees. 5) With the full jib and 1-reef, we had the traveller all the way down, but the sheet and the vang in tight to flatten the mainsail. But in the higher gusts we had to dump the sheet. At times we weren't catching any wind at all with the main-- it was completely backwinded. Surprisingly, the boat still pointed quite nicely-- didn't lose even a degree off the wind. In the gusts, we rounded up-- there was no leeward helm at all with just the jib and a flopping main. 6) While beating, we were passed by two Catalina 36's who flew their full main and 100% jibs. Both sails were hard on the wind with good shape (no spilling wind). With our jib and almost completely backwinded 1-reefed main, we stared in amazement as how they could fly their full rig. They couldn't point any higher than us, but they sure left us behind. 7) When reaching, I could gain about 1/2 knot boatspeed by poling out the jib on a short pole. I have on board the spinnaker pole from my Capri 22, which is about 8' long. By poling out the jib, I could effectively sheet it at a point outside the hull of the boat. It also helped to reduce heeling, and reduce rounding up in the gusts. That's about all I can remember right now. It was a fun ride, and I feel comfortable now with the boat in these conditions. If I was ever in stronger winds, my plan would be to drop the main entirely to get it out of the way, and then put up a smaller jib since I lose all shape, even when reefed a little bit. Once again, I'd welcome anybody's comments. Is there anything else I could do differently or better, or something I may have missed?
I took the boat out again last Saturday and experimented more with heavy-weather sailing. I promised to write about my experiences, both to reply to my own post and also to help others with these experiences. I have a mainsail with two reefs and a 100% high-clew, furling headsail. We sailed across "the Slot" in SF Bay twice, and beat towards the GG bridge. According to the weather station on Angel Island, we sailed in 29 - 31 kts each way, with gusts in the mid-to-high-30's. Here's what I found: 1) The boat sails poorly with just a full mainsail. With no jib, the boat doesn't heel much, but you don't go anywhere either. We could beat to weather, but only at about 2.5 knots. 2) A reefed jib helped with the heeling, but made it impossible to point. We kept the full main up, took three turns on the jib, and moved the fairleads forward to erase all wrinkles from the jib. Then, we put a reef into the main. We could sail well-balanced and the heeling was in control, but we simply couldn't point. We'd tack back and forth and not gain anything to windward. Speed was good. I'm wondering if this was due to my jib-- I've never been happy with the jib shape when reefed, even just a little bit. 3) With full headsail, the boat came to life and could point really well. 4) The best sail combination was the full jib with one reef in the main. With this combination we could point as well as anybody, except a J-105 who could sail a few degrees closer. We had to sheet in the jib hard though-- harder than we first imagined, and our fairleads were set pretty far back. That being said, we weren't spilling wind from the top of the jib. Our beating speed, hard on the wind, was about 6 kts, and heeling was between 20 and 25 degrees. 5) With the full jib and 1-reef, we had the traveller all the way down, but the sheet and the vang in tight to flatten the mainsail. But in the higher gusts we had to dump the sheet. At times we weren't catching any wind at all with the main-- it was completely backwinded. Surprisingly, the boat still pointed quite nicely-- didn't lose even a degree off the wind. In the gusts, we rounded up-- there was no leeward helm at all with just the jib and a flopping main. 6) While beating, we were passed by two Catalina 36's who flew their full main and 100% jibs. Both sails were hard on the wind with good shape (no spilling wind). With our jib and almost completely backwinded 1-reefed main, we stared in amazement as how they could fly their full rig. They couldn't point any higher than us, but they sure left us behind. 7) When reaching, I could gain about 1/2 knot boatspeed by poling out the jib on a short pole. I have on board the spinnaker pole from my Capri 22, which is about 8' long. By poling out the jib, I could effectively sheet it at a point outside the hull of the boat. It also helped to reduce heeling, and reduce rounding up in the gusts. That's about all I can remember right now. It was a fun ride, and I feel comfortable now with the boat in these conditions. If I was ever in stronger winds, my plan would be to drop the main entirely to get it out of the way, and then put up a smaller jib since I lose all shape, even when reefed a little bit. Once again, I'd welcome anybody's comments. Is there anything else I could do differently or better, or something I may have missed?
reefing
we like to reef the main first, sometimes forgetting to shake the main out. Our Hunter-Quest 36, loves the main reefed. We then take a 1/3 of thejenny in with the roller. This gets us up to gusts of 25 with 20 sustained.
we like to reef the main first, sometimes forgetting to shake the main out. Our Hunter-Quest 36, loves the main reefed. We then take a 1/3 of thejenny in with the roller. This gets us up to gusts of 25 with 20 sustained.
sounds like you got it figured out.
so now maybe a set of polar diagrams or charts to lay out he combinations and conditions to use as an onboard referece guide? it is interesting to me than many people never really figure this stuff out for there boats till they get in trouble. Im sure lots have benifited from your post.
so now maybe a set of polar diagrams or charts to lay out he combinations and conditions to use as an onboard referece guide? it is interesting to me than many people never really figure this stuff out for there boats till they get in trouble. Im sure lots have benifited from your post.
- Status