When I bought a replacement jib I got a good deal on a rolling furler jib (Don't have a furler, but got half price on a new sail someone ordered but didn't pick up). The furling attatchment part adds some weight, and the sail itself is thicker. Is there a way to tell what thickness (I think I read somewhere that they are numbered?) my new jib is relative to my previous, lighter jib. It would seem that in lighter wind, a lighter sail would be able to achieve a good sail shape easier. Is there a big performance difference? Thanks for any info. Richard
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Richard
Welcome to sailing. OK, yes the heavier cloth will tend to not hold its' shape in light air. That and the slight extra weight are the drawbacks. The advantage to heavier cloth is that it works at higher wind speed so as to 'live long and prosper'.
And as far as performance difference,,,,drum roll,,,'it depends'. Lots of factors go into that answer. The difference is slight unless racing or crossing the doldrums at sea. If you want to know the exact weight of the cloth, just take the sail to a loft. Again, welcome to sailing.
Welcome to sailing. OK, yes the heavier cloth will tend to not hold its' shape in light air. That and the slight extra weight are the drawbacks. The advantage to heavier cloth is that it works at higher wind speed so as to 'live long and prosper'.
And as far as performance difference,,,,drum roll,,,'it depends'. Lots of factors go into that answer. The difference is slight unless racing or crossing the doldrums at sea. If you want to know the exact weight of the cloth, just take the sail to a loft. Again, welcome to sailing.Thanks Fred
Thanks for the info., and the welcoming. I've been sailing for about two years now...basically by a little by reading and alot by doing. When I jumped on that Hobie two years ago in a nice 10-15 I knew I was hooked. What I didn't know was how many avenues of learning it would take me down. My knowledge of weather, tides (never knew the earth turned through the tide bulge...), geography, a little physics, etc. has increased greatly (though the learning curve is still angled fairly high...) It has helped me to "never stop learning" as the slogan goes. It has given adventure to my weekends and holidays, and sweet reprieve from work (as soon as I leave the landing and slip away from land, modern day stress slips away as well). It has given me the pursuit of a passion, something that was missing for awhile and, to me, is better than gold! Time for that weekend! Richard
Thanks for the info., and the welcoming. I've been sailing for about two years now...basically by a little by reading and alot by doing. When I jumped on that Hobie two years ago in a nice 10-15 I knew I was hooked. What I didn't know was how many avenues of learning it would take me down. My knowledge of weather, tides (never knew the earth turned through the tide bulge...), geography, a little physics, etc. has increased greatly (though the learning curve is still angled fairly high...) It has helped me to "never stop learning" as the slogan goes. It has given adventure to my weekends and holidays, and sweet reprieve from work (as soon as I leave the landing and slip away from land, modern day stress slips away as well). It has given me the pursuit of a passion, something that was missing for awhile and, to me, is better than gold! Time for that weekend! Richard
more on Sail weight and furler application
When you refer to a jib it is important to make a distinction between a "jib" and a "genoa" The cloth weights for furling and non furling jibs are similar whereas the cloth weights for genoas would be different. A hank on genoa would be lighter and a furling genoa would be heavier. Other questions for you: Do you plan on installing a furler to use with the new sail or are you planning on having hanks installed on it to be used on the existing forestay? Is the new sail the same size or larger than the old one? If the new sail is full hoist you will have to cut it down if you add a furler because of the space taken up by the furling drum and related hardware. Below is an excerpt from the Sail Warehouse Catalog that will give you a good primer. There is a blurb at the end about cloth weight with reqard to furling sails. Excerpted from The Sail Warehouse Catalog: Furling Sails can be either jibs or genoas depending on the amount of wind you normally sail in. One advantage of having a furling sail is that you can start out with a genoa and reef it into a jib as the wind strength increases. Our Recommendations: Overlap - The most popular size for an “all purpose” furling genoa is between 130% and 140% overlap. This is large enough to drive the boat well in light wind yet still can be reefed down to a working jib when the wind picks up. Furling genoas are reefable by about 25% before the sail shape begins to get baggy and the pointing ability suffers. Foam luff pads on H.P. and some Coastal models increase reefing ability by up to 10%. If you are sailing in a predominantly windy area (San Francisco or Hawaii for example) you may prefer to use a small furling Jib of 90% to 115% overlap known as a “Blaster Jib.” Hoist - We recommend furling genoas should be around 95% or so on the hoist and furling jibs be 85% or greater. Cloth weight - Since furling genoas are normally intended to be reefed down to working jib size they should be of equivalent cloth weight. A furling genoa will often be close to or slightly less than the weight of a mainsail on the same boat. For example; 5 oz on a 22’ footer, 6 oz on a 25 footer and around 7 oz on a 30 footer. Furling jibs should also be heavy, (Ideally about the same weight as the mainsail).
When you refer to a jib it is important to make a distinction between a "jib" and a "genoa" The cloth weights for furling and non furling jibs are similar whereas the cloth weights for genoas would be different. A hank on genoa would be lighter and a furling genoa would be heavier. Other questions for you: Do you plan on installing a furler to use with the new sail or are you planning on having hanks installed on it to be used on the existing forestay? Is the new sail the same size or larger than the old one? If the new sail is full hoist you will have to cut it down if you add a furler because of the space taken up by the furling drum and related hardware. Below is an excerpt from the Sail Warehouse Catalog that will give you a good primer. There is a blurb at the end about cloth weight with reqard to furling sails. Excerpted from The Sail Warehouse Catalog: Furling Sails can be either jibs or genoas depending on the amount of wind you normally sail in. One advantage of having a furling sail is that you can start out with a genoa and reef it into a jib as the wind strength increases. Our Recommendations: Overlap - The most popular size for an “all purpose” furling genoa is between 130% and 140% overlap. This is large enough to drive the boat well in light wind yet still can be reefed down to a working jib when the wind picks up. Furling genoas are reefable by about 25% before the sail shape begins to get baggy and the pointing ability suffers. Foam luff pads on H.P. and some Coastal models increase reefing ability by up to 10%. If you are sailing in a predominantly windy area (San Francisco or Hawaii for example) you may prefer to use a small furling Jib of 90% to 115% overlap known as a “Blaster Jib.” Hoist - We recommend furling genoas should be around 95% or so on the hoist and furling jibs be 85% or greater. Cloth weight - Since furling genoas are normally intended to be reefed down to working jib size they should be of equivalent cloth weight. A furling genoa will often be close to or slightly less than the weight of a mainsail on the same boat. For example; 5 oz on a 22’ footer, 6 oz on a 25 footer and around 7 oz on a 30 footer. Furling jibs should also be heavy, (Ideally about the same weight as the mainsail).
First of all it would be a shame to revert a furling Sail to hank on. Everybody out there is doing the opposite. What size Luff leech and foot it has and there might be someone that has the same in hank on that you can trade. I for instance have a extra Genoa that I bought and used for a few months and the previous owner used one season. I bought a roller furler and a new jib and love to have a longer foot. Mi extra Genoa measures Luff 27' 7" Leech 25' 8" Foot 17' 7". E-mail if you interested charlyc@optonline.net.
Now is a good time to buy a furler
You just got the most expensive component, the genoa. Buy yourself a CDI furler and enjoy the ease and safety of changing headsail sizes from the comfort of your cockpit. i paid about $400 for the CDI FF2 with ballbearing upgrade. My 150% genoa cost $600. I feel it was money WELL spent. Just take a walk around any marina, and you'll see many CDI's. My buddy put a Harken on his boat, and it had problems with halyard wrap, and paid almost triple what I did. If you trailer your boat even only if it's to put in at spring, and pull out in fall, you'll appreciate the CDI's flexible foil.
You just got the most expensive component, the genoa. Buy yourself a CDI furler and enjoy the ease and safety of changing headsail sizes from the comfort of your cockpit. i paid about $400 for the CDI FF2 with ballbearing upgrade. My 150% genoa cost $600. I feel it was money WELL spent. Just take a walk around any marina, and you'll see many CDI's. My buddy put a Harken on his boat, and it had problems with halyard wrap, and paid almost triple what I did. If you trailer your boat even only if it's to put in at spring, and pull out in fall, you'll appreciate the CDI's flexible foil.
Hey Mike?
Are you saying CDI furlers are impervious to halyard wrap? I thought it was caused by improper installation, i.e. top swivel too low.
Are you saying CDI furlers are impervious to halyard wrap? I thought it was caused by improper installation, i.e. top swivel too low.
Fred
You are right about the top swivel being too low. That was my friends problem. I went up his mast in a bosun's chair and installed a halyard restrainer, end of that problem. The CDI's have an internal halyard, and you do not use your installed jib halyard. Since there is no external halyard attached to your genoa, there is no chance of the foil fouling and becoming entangled.I keep my jib halyard attached as it was to the mast head. If the need ever arises that I would need an emergency repair to one of my shrouds, I can use the jib halyard. I would also be able to use it to assist lifting someone out of the water and backinto the boat. The flexible foil on the CDI allows me to raise and lower the mast without removing the foil, or worrying about damaging it with a kink.
You are right about the top swivel being too low. That was my friends problem. I went up his mast in a bosun's chair and installed a halyard restrainer, end of that problem. The CDI's have an internal halyard, and you do not use your installed jib halyard. Since there is no external halyard attached to your genoa, there is no chance of the foil fouling and becoming entangled.I keep my jib halyard attached as it was to the mast head. If the need ever arises that I would need an emergency repair to one of my shrouds, I can use the jib halyard. I would also be able to use it to assist lifting someone out of the water and backinto the boat. The flexible foil on the CDI allows me to raise and lower the mast without removing the foil, or worrying about damaging it with a kink.
Fred, Part II
Fred, Go to the link on my original post and view all of the different info that CDI provides. Their furler is really a nice product, and not too expensive.
Fred, Go to the link on my original post and view all of the different info that CDI provides. Their furler is really a nice product, and not too expensive.
Mike, part 1
I'm trying to visualize changing halyard tension with the big boat system. Is it practical or needed? I can't see how it wouldn't be needed for proper sail shape. Is the sail dropped from the bow? That's no biggie either way.
I'm trying to visualize changing halyard tension with the big boat system. Is it practical or needed? I can't see how it wouldn't be needed for proper sail shape. Is the sail dropped from the bow? That's no biggie either way.
Richard, there is no 'one' genoa which is best. Sails are designed and built for specific wind conditions. The stronger the wind the smaller the headsail and usually the heavier the fabric. Guy's that use one rolled-up sail for everything are giving up sailing performance for the sake of not having to change sails. I carry 4 different genoas to cover most of the sailing conditions that I might face and still get the best possible sailing performance. I wouldn't, for example, use the high clewed reacher for beating in 25kts. Thats what my battened #3 is meant for. It all comes down to how much compramise you are willing to accept. Some folks drive on All-Weather tires year round , others have regular street tires for summer driving and snow tires for winter. The all weather tires are a compramise in both situations. Fred, Halyard tension is definately a sail control for shaping your sails, going without adjusting it is just another compramise.
No need to adjust
Fred, According to the manufacturer, since the luff tape provide support the entire length of the luff, there is no sagging as with hanked on jibs. Only 50 # tension is needed to support the jib. There should be no need to adjust the tension for the whole season.
Fred, According to the manufacturer, since the luff tape provide support the entire length of the luff, there is no sagging as with hanked on jibs. Only 50 # tension is needed to support the jib. There should be no need to adjust the tension for the whole season.
More for Fred
Fred, sorry, I forgot to answer your 2nd question. (Too bad we can't edit the posts like the old site permitted.) To drop the jib, you release the internal halyard, and bend on a small diameter line to allow you to gently lower the jib, and not lose the end of the halyard as it rises to the top of the mast. I've used mine for 2 seasons now in every variety of winds, and am very pleased with the performance. My boat is a C22. I sail frequently alone, and the safety and convenience are worth the money. I haven't noticed any reduction in performance, and at times have had the genoa down to storm jib size. Also, like alan said, he has 4 genoas. How much money did he spend for 3 extra headsails? And he still has to climb out onto the bow to change them!
Fred, sorry, I forgot to answer your 2nd question. (Too bad we can't edit the posts like the old site permitted.) To drop the jib, you release the internal halyard, and bend on a small diameter line to allow you to gently lower the jib, and not lose the end of the halyard as it rises to the top of the mast. I've used mine for 2 seasons now in every variety of winds, and am very pleased with the performance. My boat is a C22. I sail frequently alone, and the safety and convenience are worth the money. I haven't noticed any reduction in performance, and at times have had the genoa down to storm jib size. Also, like alan said, he has 4 genoas. How much money did he spend for 3 extra headsails? And he still has to climb out onto the bow to change them!
Mike, part 2
Alan is talking about winning races. You can't do that with a rolled up genoa with no adjustable halyard tension. Lack of sag is not why tension is changed, it's so as to move the draft. The draft changes the sensitivity of the airfoil (sail) so as to perform better in various conditions such as different wind strength or wave conditions. Whew! Harken furling systems are built with two groves to receive two sails at the SAME TIME. That allows changes. That can only be done with two halyards. It's called an inside-out change. AKA RACING. Sure, they cost more, they do more. But no one system is for everybody. I'm sure the CDI system is just fine for its' intended audience. And I'll stick with my Harken. By the way Mike, if you sign in to the site, each of your posts will appear with a edit/delete option right after the print-thread option. Make sure your cookies are turned on.
Alan is talking about winning races. You can't do that with a rolled up genoa with no adjustable halyard tension. Lack of sag is not why tension is changed, it's so as to move the draft. The draft changes the sensitivity of the airfoil (sail) so as to perform better in various conditions such as different wind strength or wave conditions. Whew! Harken furling systems are built with two groves to receive two sails at the SAME TIME. That allows changes. That can only be done with two halyards. It's called an inside-out change. AKA RACING. Sure, they cost more, they do more. But no one system is for everybody. I'm sure the CDI system is just fine for its' intended audience. And I'll stick with my Harken. By the way Mike, if you sign in to the site, each of your posts will appear with a edit/delete option right after the print-thread option. Make sure your cookies are turned on.
Simple.
I didn't know the answer. You provided the link. I studied the information that YOU provided. Now I know.
I didn't know the answer. You provided the link. I studied the information that YOU provided. Now I know.
Fred, This was originaly Richard's post
and we, or I sort of dominated it. He was inquiring about the 1/2 priced jib he just bought. I made a suggestion to him. I am not into racing, and I assumed that Richard wasn't either. I just thought that he would like some food for thought. As Rodney King said.."Why can't we all just get along?"
and we, or I sort of dominated it. He was inquiring about the 1/2 priced jib he just bought. I made a suggestion to him. I am not into racing, and I assumed that Richard wasn't either. I just thought that he would like some food for thought. As Rodney King said.."Why can't we all just get along?"
Thanks Mike, I didn't know that
Rodney was a philosopher too. And these threads can morph a lot worse than this one has.
Rodney was a philosopher too.
And these threads can morph a lot worse than this one has.
Mike, I wasn't trying to get in anyones face here. I am just trying to point out the shortcomings of only one headsail. Many people are under the dilusion that there is only one headsail on a boat and that more are a waste of money. Of course they cost money, we all know the expression, "a hole in the water into which you pour money". Sure I race, but even when I just go out for the fun of it, I still want to do my best with the right combo of sails up. Yes, sometimes we have to change sails, thats what sailing is all about. We do a headsail change in about 2 minutes with barely a hiccup. Any way, no harm or bad feelings intended, just opinions.........
Alan - Changing Headsails
Hey Alan - even though I don't race, I've had a lot of fun playing around with different headsails this summer. Our original 19 year old working jib has taped up rips and is blown out, in my opinion. So, we've experimented with a little used storm jib in like new condition and under certain conditions, actually made better speed than with the old 110. On the other hand, we messed around with a like-new huge genoa from our old boat and although we had fun, it was a bit overwhelming. Anyway, my point is we would have missed out on these learning experiences (and fun) if we already had a furler. That said, when we buy a new 110 (or larger), we're going to seriously consider going to a furler. Here's my request for you - How about starting a topic on headsail changes? I'm always interested in how racers do things because I want to optimize my boats performance while cruising, too. Not a rehash of furling vs. hanking on. If you take up this suggestion, please keep your brothers and sisters on smaller boats in mind! Many of us have learned from your past posts, and we appreciate the effort.
Hey Alan - even though I don't race, I've had a lot of fun playing around with different headsails this summer. Our original 19 year old working jib has taped up rips and is blown out, in my opinion. So, we've experimented with a little used storm jib in like new condition and under certain conditions, actually made better speed than with the old 110. On the other hand, we messed around with a like-new huge genoa from our old boat and although we had fun, it was a bit overwhelming. Anyway, my point is we would have missed out on these learning experiences (and fun) if we already had a furler. That said, when we buy a new 110 (or larger), we're going to seriously consider going to a furler. Here's my request for you - How about starting a topic on headsail changes? I'm always interested in how racers do things because I want to optimize my boats performance while cruising, too. Not a rehash of furling vs. hanking on. If you take up this suggestion, please keep your brothers and sisters on smaller boats in mind! Many of us have learned from your past posts, and we appreciate the effort.
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