Our 430 has two reverse cycle air conditioners that just don't cut it during our cool falls and springs in the Northwest. We are considering installing an oil fired heating system. Any views on: hot water vs. forced air; size; makes and models; and how instrusive is the instalation? Thanks for your thoughts. Peter Milne
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How Cold is it?
Just out of curiosity, how cold does it get in the Northwest, and what is the water tempature. I know the reverse cycle heat doesn't do that great a job when the water temp is in the 40's. MPJ
Just out of curiosity, how cold does it get in the Northwest, and what is the water tempature. I know the reverse cycle heat doesn't do that great a job when the water temp is in the 40's. MPJ
Hot water is the way to go!
Peter, I installed a Webasto diesel fired air heater on my previous boat, a 35.5. It was great but the ducting took up a lot of my stowage space under the setees. In my current boat a 40.5 I have a Webasto diesel fired water boiler furnace. The advantages are: 1. Small hoses to send all over the boat that don't burn up much space. 2. The furnace heats up the engine block for easy winter starts. 3. The furnace heats up your water heater tank for hot showers or clean dishes any time. 4. You can put the little radiators anywhere, even in your cockpit pedistal for warm feet on cccold watches! 5. The wife will go sailing even for an overniter when it's toasty warm below. The fuel line for it is about the size of the inner barrel of a Bic pen! It doesn't use much fuel. Need I go on? Write with your questions if you like. Ron H s/v Best Revenge Portland, OR
Peter, I installed a Webasto diesel fired air heater on my previous boat, a 35.5. It was great but the ducting took up a lot of my stowage space under the setees. In my current boat a 40.5 I have a Webasto diesel fired water boiler furnace. The advantages are: 1. Small hoses to send all over the boat that don't burn up much space. 2. The furnace heats up the engine block for easy winter starts. 3. The furnace heats up your water heater tank for hot showers or clean dishes any time. 4. You can put the little radiators anywhere, even in your cockpit pedistal for warm feet on cccold watches! 5. The wife will go sailing even for an overniter when it's toasty warm below. The fuel line for it is about the size of the inner barrel of a Bic pen! It doesn't use much fuel. Need I go on? Write with your questions if you like. Ron H s/v Best Revenge Portland, OR
amen!
I put a webasto hot water system on my 410 and absolutely love it. Even in the summer, it's great to be able to enjoy a hot shower out on the hook without having to start up the engine. And when beating to weather during an all-night passage, it's great to have warm air coming up the companionway. I installed Webasto's smallest system and find it to be completely adequate. It's light and tiny and it takes surprisingly little fuel. Tends to be noisy, though. I put mine in the transom, especially during startup, and we can hear the pumps whine through the bulkhead in the aft cabin. A small price to pay, if you ask me. If there's one downside, in comparison to other systems, it's that the radiators tend not to dry out the cabin the way a forced air system does, because it heats air already in the cabin. It's much more efficient, though, both on fuel and amps. A fringe benefit, by the way, is that you can route the hot water lines under the sole in such a way that the floor is toasty when you bare-foot it out of the berth on a wintry morning.
I put a webasto hot water system on my 410 and absolutely love it. Even in the summer, it's great to be able to enjoy a hot shower out on the hook without having to start up the engine. And when beating to weather during an all-night passage, it's great to have warm air coming up the companionway. I installed Webasto's smallest system and find it to be completely adequate. It's light and tiny and it takes surprisingly little fuel. Tends to be noisy, though. I put mine in the transom, especially during startup, and we can hear the pumps whine through the bulkhead in the aft cabin. A small price to pay, if you ask me. If there's one downside, in comparison to other systems, it's that the radiators tend not to dry out the cabin the way a forced air system does, because it heats air already in the cabin. It's much more efficient, though, both on fuel and amps. A fringe benefit, by the way, is that you can route the hot water lines under the sole in such a way that the floor is toasty when you bare-foot it out of the berth on a wintry morning.
Heater Noise
1. Heater Noise: Our forced-air heater, a 1988 model Ardic, is noisy for two reasons; the fuel pump (which makes large clicking sounds) and the fan/heater which makes a lot of noise (due to the fan and the flame/burner), together they sound like a jet engine. The later model Ardic's have a quieter fuel pump but it cost's too much to change. The 'jet engine' noise should be less with a hot-water system since one doesn't have to blow the air. 2. Soundproofing: To combat the noise I have plans to isolate the plywood mounting board with neoprene pads so the sound doesn't transmit directly to the hull, and, to wrap the heater with engine-room soundproofing material. One could do this on a hot-water system as well. 3. Recommendation on electrical: The start-up current is quite large because it has to heat a glow-plug then start a fan. With my first installation a volt-ohm meter indicated a significantly large voltage drop at the heater. Subsequently I increased the size of the conductor and the heater started up much easier and I've had no further problems with the glow-plug. The start-up current for electric motors is about 3.5x their running current.
1. Heater Noise: Our forced-air heater, a 1988 model Ardic, is noisy for two reasons; the fuel pump (which makes large clicking sounds) and the fan/heater which makes a lot of noise (due to the fan and the flame/burner), together they sound like a jet engine. The later model Ardic's have a quieter fuel pump but it cost's too much to change. The 'jet engine' noise should be less with a hot-water system since one doesn't have to blow the air. 2. Soundproofing: To combat the noise I have plans to isolate the plywood mounting board with neoprene pads so the sound doesn't transmit directly to the hull, and, to wrap the heater with engine-room soundproofing material. One could do this on a hot-water system as well. 3. Recommendation on electrical: The start-up current is quite large because it has to heat a glow-plug then start a fan. With my first installation a volt-ohm meter indicated a significantly large voltage drop at the heater. Subsequently I increased the size of the conductor and the heater started up much easier and I've had no further problems with the glow-plug. The start-up current for electric motors is about 3.5x their running current.
Reverse Cycle is Good!
Peter, I have been involved in non marine heat pumps most of my 30 year career. We have a 376 with only (1) reverse cycle. We are located in the Chesapeake area and it has been doing a very acceptable job thusfar. Last year we were in the water into December and were toasty every weekend. Although, you have (2) on your 430, it is easily justified that the 430 has twice the exposed surface and therfore twice the heating requirement. The water source heat pump or reverse cyle AC unit is VERY efficient. It does have some baisc needs and understanding though. How old is your 430 and have you ever pulled and cleaned the filters? Is the water flow through the unit adequate and have the inlet strainers been washed? Both proper air flow and water are critical. Never close an outlet or inlet vent entirely. Never obstruct the vents with anything placed directly in front of them. Air flow and efficiencly can be greatly impeded by the extra resistance imposed by closed or blocked vents. If you and yours are used to the very warm delvery air temperature of a gas or oil fired system, a reverse cyle can NOT deliver that. Since air movement has a cooling effect on the human body, your best bet is to aim your vents to supply air flow along the outside perimeter of the boat, i.e. the bulkheads. Because the delivery air temperature is cooler it becomes very important not to cool your crew with a direct blast of air. In the summer time, it is a good feeling to have air wisk past our body since it creates skin surface evaporation and cooling. You do not want this to happen with a heat pump. The output of the reverse cycle more than likely exceeds the heating requirement of your boat. The addition of an oil fired is a drastic step and seems very unlikely to be necessary. Let me know how you make out! I am on the HOW directory if you would like to send email. Heat pumps carry an unpoplular stigma. They are said to work well only in the sunbelt. Take it from me, you don't need a heat pump in the sunbelt. They work best right where you and I sail. I would have a pro make an independent evaluation before proceeding with another system. Mike DiMario Media, PA s/v Serenity H376
Peter, I have been involved in non marine heat pumps most of my 30 year career. We have a 376 with only (1) reverse cycle. We are located in the Chesapeake area and it has been doing a very acceptable job thusfar. Last year we were in the water into December and were toasty every weekend. Although, you have (2) on your 430, it is easily justified that the 430 has twice the exposed surface and therfore twice the heating requirement. The water source heat pump or reverse cyle AC unit is VERY efficient. It does have some baisc needs and understanding though. How old is your 430 and have you ever pulled and cleaned the filters? Is the water flow through the unit adequate and have the inlet strainers been washed? Both proper air flow and water are critical. Never close an outlet or inlet vent entirely. Never obstruct the vents with anything placed directly in front of them. Air flow and efficiencly can be greatly impeded by the extra resistance imposed by closed or blocked vents. If you and yours are used to the very warm delvery air temperature of a gas or oil fired system, a reverse cyle can NOT deliver that. Since air movement has a cooling effect on the human body, your best bet is to aim your vents to supply air flow along the outside perimeter of the boat, i.e. the bulkheads. Because the delivery air temperature is cooler it becomes very important not to cool your crew with a direct blast of air. In the summer time, it is a good feeling to have air wisk past our body since it creates skin surface evaporation and cooling. You do not want this to happen with a heat pump. The output of the reverse cycle more than likely exceeds the heating requirement of your boat. The addition of an oil fired is a drastic step and seems very unlikely to be necessary. Let me know how you make out! I am on the HOW directory if you would like to send email. Heat pumps carry an unpoplular stigma. They are said to work well only in the sunbelt. Take it from me, you don't need a heat pump in the sunbelt. They work best right where you and I sail. I would have a pro make an independent evaluation before proceeding with another system. Mike DiMario Media, PA s/v Serenity H376
Heating a boat in the Northwest
I have had two boats with hot water heat, and one with forced air. There are pros and cons to both systems as I see it. At the moment, I have just installed a Webastco 3500 forced air diesel furnace on a new Hunter 380. The installer hung the fuel pump from plastic straps and we hear very little noise in the aft cabin and none in the main cabin from the pump. We do hear the air coming out of the outlets, but when I am cold, it is a very pleasant sound. It doesn't seem to use much electricity but I don't have a handle on the amount of fuel it uses--it seems small enough for what we get. We have three outlets; aft cabin, main cabin and forward cabin. If I leave the head doors open, it will heat the entire boat. Our thermostat is on the navigation panel. Downside of it all is the size of the ducting which runs underneath the head of the aft bunk, underthe locker and under the galley. This is all space I probably would not have made use of. It does run under the freezer and refrig. Presently, I am trying to figure out have to better insulate the ducting in these areas. Shure Marine in Seattle sold us the unit and I am very pleased with the system.
I have had two boats with hot water heat, and one with forced air. There are pros and cons to both systems as I see it. At the moment, I have just installed a Webastco 3500 forced air diesel furnace on a new Hunter 380. The installer hung the fuel pump from plastic straps and we hear very little noise in the aft cabin and none in the main cabin from the pump. We do hear the air coming out of the outlets, but when I am cold, it is a very pleasant sound. It doesn't seem to use much electricity but I don't have a handle on the amount of fuel it uses--it seems small enough for what we get. We have three outlets; aft cabin, main cabin and forward cabin. If I leave the head doors open, it will heat the entire boat. Our thermostat is on the navigation panel. Downside of it all is the size of the ducting which runs underneath the head of the aft bunk, underthe locker and under the galley. This is all space I probably would not have made use of. It does run under the freezer and refrig. Presently, I am trying to figure out have to better insulate the ducting in these areas. Shure Marine in Seattle sold us the unit and I am very pleased with the system.
Insulation
I've installed forced air heat on 2 boats now and the best insulation I've found is a product that looks like 2 thin sheets of aluminum foil with bubble wrap between them. I'm not sure what it' called. But Eagle Hardware carries it here in the Puget Sound area. It works great, but the best thing about it is that it's only about 3/8 of an inch thick so it doesn't add much to the circumfrence of the ducting. It's easy to install too. Wrap it and apply aluminum tape to hold it together
I've installed forced air heat on 2 boats now and the best insulation I've found is a product that looks like 2 thin sheets of aluminum foil with bubble wrap between them. I'm not sure what it' called. But Eagle Hardware carries it here in the Puget Sound area. It works great, but the best thing about it is that it's only about 3/8 of an inch thick so it doesn't add much to the circumfrence of the ducting. It's easy to install too. Wrap it and apply aluminum tape to hold it together
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