While recently out in 10 knts of wind, I went forward to snap some pictures of my guest at the helm. while at the bow, I took the attached picture to later examine the shape of my mainsail....please ignore the trim on the jib! What sticks out to me is the "bend" or sag in my headstay. Should this be tightned? Could it possibly be optical illusion? Thoughts and comments are welcome.
Headstay tension
- Thread starter Stephen K
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Adjustable backstay
Do you have an adjustable backstay that you could tighten up? That would introduce a little rake in the mast and may take out a little of the bend. The trim of jib aside, are those horizontal wrinkles in the sail in between the telltales? If so, maybe a little more halyard tension on the jib. All that being said, I run the foredeck on an Express 37 and am responsible for calling jib halyard tension on the hoists, and the foil will have bend in it unless we are using a #3 (90%) headsail in 20+ knots.
Do you have an adjustable backstay that you could tighten up? That would introduce a little rake in the mast and may take out a little of the bend. The trim of jib aside, are those horizontal wrinkles in the sail in between the telltales? If so, maybe a little more halyard tension on the jib. All that being said, I run the foredeck on an Express 37 and am responsible for calling jib halyard tension on the hoists, and the foil will have bend in it unless we are using a #3 (90%) headsail in 20+ knots.
Boat'n Bus
Thanks for your response. My sailing vessel is a Catalina 30 (masthead rig)...I do not have an adjustable backstay. I think you bascially answered my concern in that there will be a slight curve to the foil with my 135% genoa in that level wind. I heartily agree with your comment that I could have benefited from having more jib halyard tension. I don't race this boat, but enjoy but do enjoy getting the most out of her.
Thanks for your response. My sailing vessel is a Catalina 30 (masthead rig)...I do not have an adjustable backstay. I think you bascially answered my concern in that there will be a slight curve to the foil with my 135% genoa in that level wind. I heartily agree with your comment that I could have benefited from having more jib halyard tension. I don't race this boat, but enjoy but do enjoy getting the most out of her.
Everybody's going to have a different opinion but
I think your headstay sag is quite acceptable for 10 knots of wind, and no matter how much you crank on the backstay, you will never completely remove it. I think 10 knots is the point where you start to put in backstay. Both halyards could be a tad tighter, but the draft is centered, and it is better not to have the luff too tight in 10 knots. I suspect that you could sheet the jib in a little tighter, say to within about an inch of the end of your spreader. The leach line seems too tight though, as you have a small but hard hook in the leach As the winds increase though I would start cranking in backstay Thats one man's oppinion Joe S
I think your headstay sag is quite acceptable for 10 knots of wind, and no matter how much you crank on the backstay, you will never completely remove it. I think 10 knots is the point where you start to put in backstay. Both halyards could be a tad tighter, but the draft is centered, and it is better not to have the luff too tight in 10 knots. I suspect that you could sheet the jib in a little tighter, say to within about an inch of the end of your spreader. The leach line seems too tight though, as you have a small but hard hook in the leach As the winds increase though I would start cranking in backstay Thats one man's oppinion Joe S
Gotta get the most
Steve, It is always fun to have those sails set clean and the telltales streaming! And remember, you don't have to cross a start line to be racing
Joseph brings up a good point about the hook too. Cheers, Bus
Steve, It is always fun to have those sails set clean and the telltales streaming! And remember, you don't have to cross a start line to be racing
Joseph brings up a good point about the hook too. Cheers, Bus
6" Looks About Right
Looks okay to me for a non-racing rig. I use 6" as a guide but cannot estimate your sag from the photo. Sailmakers cut to suit headstay sag so, unless the luff is moving to and fro when hard on the wind, or the sag is spoiling the sail shape, then you are not losing power or pointing angle.
Looks okay to me for a non-racing rig. I use 6" as a guide but cannot estimate your sag from the photo. Sailmakers cut to suit headstay sag so, unless the luff is moving to and fro when hard on the wind, or the sag is spoiling the sail shape, then you are not losing power or pointing angle.
You can't ignore the trim
when your assessing the sag in the headstay - It's going to make a difference if the halyard tension, sheeting tension and sheeting angle are set correctly IMHO the headstay will have less sag if the sail is cutting thru the wind instead of being bagged and pulling sideways Having said that - the sag doesn't look excessive Don -feel free to jump in here Regards Brian
when your assessing the sag in the headstay - It's going to make a difference if the halyard tension, sheeting tension and sheeting angle are set correctly IMHO the headstay will have less sag if the sail is cutting thru the wind instead of being bagged and pulling sideways Having said that - the sag doesn't look excessive Don -feel free to jump in here Regards Brian
...leach tension
The replies are really spot on. I have now learned that it is normal for the foil to have some bend to it at this wind speed. Both halyard tensions could have been a little bit tighter. Both sails are new (less than 6 months old). Funny that the "hooked" leech was mentioned. From the beginning, this genoa has had a very tight leech that has had a "hook" to it. I do not have ANY tension in the genoa leech cord in this picture..it is fully loose. I have talked to the sailmaker regarding the "hook". He said it would probably "relax" after some sailing time in higher winds. The sailmaker is from another state....maybe I should send him this picture or take some more my next time out and let him see what others are seeing.
The replies are really spot on. I have now learned that it is normal for the foil to have some bend to it at this wind speed. Both halyard tensions could have been a little bit tighter. Both sails are new (less than 6 months old). Funny that the "hooked" leech was mentioned. From the beginning, this genoa has had a very tight leech that has had a "hook" to it. I do not have ANY tension in the genoa leech cord in this picture..it is fully loose. I have talked to the sailmaker regarding the "hook". He said it would probably "relax" after some sailing time in higher winds. The sailmaker is from another state....maybe I should send him this picture or take some more my next time out and let him see what others are seeing.
Leech
Sailmakers aren't perfect. Just because the leech line is loose at the bottom doesn't mean there isn't an errant stitch or two holding tension on the leech line. I'd check to make sure it really is loose. The belly of the sail is going to be most effected by stretch, I don't see how that will help straighten out the leech.
Sailmakers aren't perfect. Just because the leech line is loose at the bottom doesn't mean there isn't an errant stitch or two holding tension on the leech line. I'd check to make sure it really is loose. The belly of the sail is going to be most effected by stretch, I don't see how that will help straighten out the leech.
Stephen the hook in your jib
leach is so hard that it looks induced by a tight leach line. The leach line is a line sewn into the leach to adjust for leach flutter and that line would be resting at the very back of the leach pocket. Check to see if you have one, and if you do ease it. If the leach tape were too tightly sewn, it would be parallel to the sail and the hook would be just forward of the leach seam. What you have is a leach tape with the outer edge shorter than the forward edge of the tape. In sewing the plunges of the needle shrink the path of the stitching so if it were a straight piece sewn on the trailing edge would be looser than the seam edge. In addition, the leach tape is pretty straight before sewing and the leach panel edge is slightly concave to get it to stand without battens. That also tends to make the trailing edge looser than the leading edge of the luff tape. It sure looks like a tight leach line. Joe S
leach is so hard that it looks induced by a tight leach line. The leach line is a line sewn into the leach to adjust for leach flutter and that line would be resting at the very back of the leach pocket. Check to see if you have one, and if you do ease it. If the leach tape were too tightly sewn, it would be parallel to the sail and the hook would be just forward of the leach seam. What you have is a leach tape with the outer edge shorter than the forward edge of the tape. In sewing the plunges of the needle shrink the path of the stitching so if it were a straight piece sewn on the trailing edge would be looser than the seam edge. In addition, the leach tape is pretty straight before sewing and the leach panel edge is slightly concave to get it to stand without battens. That also tends to make the trailing edge looser than the leading edge of the luff tape. It sure looks like a tight leach line. Joe S
...leech tension
yes, I do have a leech line that rests at the back of the leech pocket. When I first got the sail, it looked "hooked" so I pulled on the leech line to try and "ease" it, but it would just get tighter and would not release from the leech clam cleat. Finally one day when pulling harder, it came out of the clam cleat and released. This is as far as I can get it to release. I still believe it is tight and it is even causing my main to backwind sometimes. Thanks for your verification. Its time to call the sailmaker and send him this picture. He is very cooperative and will look at it and fix it, but that means shipping it back and forth and down time during the sailing season...bummer!
yes, I do have a leech line that rests at the back of the leech pocket. When I first got the sail, it looked "hooked" so I pulled on the leech line to try and "ease" it, but it would just get tighter and would not release from the leech clam cleat. Finally one day when pulling harder, it came out of the clam cleat and released. This is as far as I can get it to release. I still believe it is tight and it is even causing my main to backwind sometimes. Thanks for your verification. Its time to call the sailmaker and send him this picture. He is very cooperative and will look at it and fix it, but that means shipping it back and forth and down time during the sailing season...bummer!
Stephen, It shouldn't be too hard to fix
First drop the sail and inspect the entire leach to see if its hung up somewhere inside. Ken suggested it might be stitched in somewhere. If you inspect it carefully you will probably find where it is caught. Remember it should be resting at the very back edge of the luff tape. look in the area where it isn't. If it is stitched in, just cut those stitches and free it up. You can put temporary sail repair tape over the cut stitches, or have It re-stitched locally, quicker and cheaper than shipping costs. If it's not too many stitches gone you may be able to put the sail right back up and go sailing, and do the repair later. If thats not the hang up, the line may be just caught on something and you can do the same sort of thing to fix it. Cut a few stitches, unhook the snag and tape the edge for temp, or have it re-stitched locally. Good luck Joe S
First drop the sail and inspect the entire leach to see if its hung up somewhere inside. Ken suggested it might be stitched in somewhere. If you inspect it carefully you will probably find where it is caught. Remember it should be resting at the very back edge of the luff tape. look in the area where it isn't. If it is stitched in, just cut those stitches and free it up. You can put temporary sail repair tape over the cut stitches, or have It re-stitched locally, quicker and cheaper than shipping costs. If it's not too many stitches gone you may be able to put the sail right back up and go sailing, and do the repair later. If thats not the hang up, the line may be just caught on something and you can do the same sort of thing to fix it. Cut a few stitches, unhook the snag and tape the edge for temp, or have it re-stitched locally. Good luck Joe S
...concur
with the recommendations. The first step is getting it down to look at the entire length of the leech for snags as suggested. I will be out at the boat this weekend, weather permitting to do this. By the way, I called the sailmaker and he remembered that we had this leech discussion 2 to 3 months ago. If its still an issue, he WANTS me to be 100% satisfied and to do that he needs to see the sail and fix any problem...he voluntered to pick up the shipping costs...and turn it around immediately....gotta like that! I'll keep you posted.
with the recommendations. The first step is getting it down to look at the entire length of the leech for snags as suggested. I will be out at the boat this weekend, weather permitting to do this. By the way, I called the sailmaker and he remembered that we had this leech discussion 2 to 3 months ago. If its still an issue, he WANTS me to be 100% satisfied and to do that he needs to see the sail and fix any problem...he voluntered to pick up the shipping costs...and turn it around immediately....gotta like that! I'll keep you posted.
Stephen K: I wish I was good enough to be able to look at a relative small picture (I prefer a bigger picture say taken from another boat such as you might see in a ad in a sailing magazine)and tell you exactly and precisely what adjustment should be made to the forestay so take my evaluation with that in mind. I think you forestay is too loose - "too" being the relative term. It is like saying I can sell a crap load of books and sail trim charts. I've never figured out how much is in a crap load. Anyway, on my boat I like the forstay pretty (there is that term again!)tight. I use a jib cunningham for jib adjustment. Additionally, while I have a backstay adjuster on the C30 I don't use it. I keep it attached because it is one of the best Garhauer makes and it looks trick. To only use a backstay adjuster to tighten the forestay creates other problems such as weather helm and that is not the purpose of the backstay adjuster anyway. I think I have noticed one thing and that is what looks like wrinkles in the main and jib. If that is true you should crank on the jib and main halyard to eliminate them.
Confused........
Don- If the backstay adjuster is not used to adjust forestay tension, then in your opinion what is its primary purpose?
Don- If the backstay adjuster is not used to adjust forestay tension, then in your opinion what is its primary purpose?
Headstay Sag
If you have a second Genoa halyard or a spinnaker halyard, you could fasten it to the bow pulpit on centerline and hand tension it. Now you have a straight reference line just forward of the luff of your Genoa to compare just how much sag you have. How much is too much, and how much is too tight? Does the boat not point as well as you think it should because of too much headstay sag? When you are in high pointing trim, is it dificult to keep the boat 'in the groove' because the entry is too fine; then the headstay sag may be too tight? The C30's have a relatively heavy, rigid mast section; a backstay adjuster used to bend the rig and flatten the main on a 'bendy' two spreader rig (and tension the headstay) would basically rake back the mast and possibly create additional weather helm, as I believe Don is saying.
If you have a second Genoa halyard or a spinnaker halyard, you could fasten it to the bow pulpit on centerline and hand tension it. Now you have a straight reference line just forward of the luff of your Genoa to compare just how much sag you have. How much is too much, and how much is too tight? Does the boat not point as well as you think it should because of too much headstay sag? When you are in high pointing trim, is it dificult to keep the boat 'in the groove' because the entry is too fine; then the headstay sag may be too tight? The C30's have a relatively heavy, rigid mast section; a backstay adjuster used to bend the rig and flatten the main on a 'bendy' two spreader rig (and tension the headstay) would basically rake back the mast and possibly create additional weather helm, as I believe Don is saying.
back stay adjusting and sail trim
Well when you tighten the back stay your bend the mast and flatten the main while also tightening the forstay and flattneing the foresail also. So tighten the backstay when the wind pipes up and you want to de-power the sails. Infact the general rule is loose in light winds and tight in higher. This applies to all sail trim lines except the sheets.
Well when you tighten the back stay your bend the mast and flatten the main while also tightening the forstay and flattneing the foresail also. So tighten the backstay when the wind pipes up and you want to de-power the sails. Infact the general rule is loose in light winds and tight in higher. This applies to all sail trim lines except the sheets.
Confused
Tom D (Tampa):This is for everyone listening and just not you because it is a common question. Let's do this by the numbers. When you pull or ease a sail trim control for the mainsail or jib you have to know WHAT you are adjusting. On any boat that I am on I always ask the skipper WHY he has called for a particular sail trim adjustment like "ease the outhaul" or "CRANK ON THE BACKSTAY". You would be amazed at the answers I get and the problem is the skipper never took the time to learn the purpose of each sail trim control plus what the control is adjusting. The following sentence will probably be on my grave stone - there are ONLY 4 things to adjust on the main and jib and that is draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Please note that tightening the forestay is not one of the elements. When you crank on the backstay you are adjustimg secondly draft position and primarily DRAFT DEPTH. The purpose of the backstay adjuster is to bend the mast. Please note I said BEND and not RAKE. To illustrate a bent mast just bend your index finger. Note the area around your knuckle. The action of your knuckle pulls the fullness out of the middle of the sail thus adjusting the draft depth or belly of the sail. In order to BEND the mast you have to have a bendy mast like a J boat or America Cup. The problem with most production boats (Catalina's in particular) is that the mast is like a telephone pole. You can't bend it - when you crank on the backstay you end up raking it back. In your case, when you cranked on the backstay adjsuter you would tighten the forestay but you also would induce weather helm, which was not the desired effect you were looking for. What has happened is the boat thinks you picked up the mast and moved it aft. With my book and chart I include a QUICK REFERENCE SHEET that outlines the 4 elements of sail trim for the main and jib and describes which sail trim control for the main and jib are used to adjust the elements and which way to pull or push them to get the effect you are seeking. That sheet is worth the price of the book and chart. Every sailor should memorize this quick reference sheet - it would make their sail trimming experience a lot easier. The alternative is just keep cranking on everyting and hope for the best but you will never get 100% effeciency from your boat and most importantly your boat won't like you very much!!
Tom D (Tampa):This is for everyone listening and just not you because it is a common question. Let's do this by the numbers. When you pull or ease a sail trim control for the mainsail or jib you have to know WHAT you are adjusting. On any boat that I am on I always ask the skipper WHY he has called for a particular sail trim adjustment like "ease the outhaul" or "CRANK ON THE BACKSTAY". You would be amazed at the answers I get and the problem is the skipper never took the time to learn the purpose of each sail trim control plus what the control is adjusting. The following sentence will probably be on my grave stone - there are ONLY 4 things to adjust on the main and jib and that is draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Please note that tightening the forestay is not one of the elements. When you crank on the backstay you are adjustimg secondly draft position and primarily DRAFT DEPTH. The purpose of the backstay adjuster is to bend the mast. Please note I said BEND and not RAKE. To illustrate a bent mast just bend your index finger. Note the area around your knuckle. The action of your knuckle pulls the fullness out of the middle of the sail thus adjusting the draft depth or belly of the sail. In order to BEND the mast you have to have a bendy mast like a J boat or America Cup. The problem with most production boats (Catalina's in particular) is that the mast is like a telephone pole. You can't bend it - when you crank on the backstay you end up raking it back. In your case, when you cranked on the backstay adjsuter you would tighten the forestay but you also would induce weather helm, which was not the desired effect you were looking for. What has happened is the boat thinks you picked up the mast and moved it aft. With my book and chart I include a QUICK REFERENCE SHEET that outlines the 4 elements of sail trim for the main and jib and describes which sail trim control for the main and jib are used to adjust the elements and which way to pull or push them to get the effect you are seeking. That sheet is worth the price of the book and chart. Every sailor should memorize this quick reference sheet - it would make their sail trimming experience a lot easier. The alternative is just keep cranking on everyting and hope for the best but you will never get 100% effeciency from your boat and most importantly your boat won't like you very much!!
Joe, you got me, Leech
is the correct spelling. I passed that course over 60 years ago, so if slipping an a in, where an e is supposed to be. is your objection to my comment, I can live with it. Happy sailing Joe S
is the correct spelling. I passed that course over 60 years ago, so if slipping an a in, where an e is supposed to be. is your objection to my comment, I can live with it. Happy sailing Joe S
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