I know I'm eventually going to replace the sails on my recently acquired Hunter 23 - she's a 1985 model and has the original suit that includes a 100% jib. I've yet to sail this boat but I understand that the Hunter 23 suffers from pretty strong weather helm and I wondered if going to a 110% or larger might help that. I currently have the fixed blocks for jib sheeting so I would have to upgrade that to a traveler (probably not a bad idea anyway).
Headsail sizing
- Thread starter Jake19851
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Probably
Don't know for sure. This is my second season to sail my '87 h23 ( they are great boats) and for the first time under reefed main and jib in about 15knots of wind the helm actually balanced out, that leads me to believe that under some conditions maybe a little larger headsail couldn't hurt. Dave "Wind Dreamer"
Don't know for sure. This is my second season to sail my '87 h23 ( they are great boats) and for the first time under reefed main and jib in about 15knots of wind the helm actually balanced out, that leads me to believe that under some conditions maybe a little larger headsail couldn't hurt. Dave "Wind Dreamer"
I was blessed with 4 headsails
Jake, I was blessed that the previous owner installed jib sheet travelers and four headsails. It came with a storm jib (I don’t remember the %size), a 100%, a 150%, and a 185% drifter. I haven’t noticed any reduction in weather helm with the larger sails, but then again I’m on a small lake in Nebraska with contrary wind conditions. The travelers do make sail shaping easier. PS I spent a long time reading your web page yesterday. Your doing a great job! Bob Noble S/V I Miss Lisa
Jake, I was blessed that the previous owner installed jib sheet travelers and four headsails. It came with a storm jib (I don’t remember the %size), a 100%, a 150%, and a 185% drifter. I haven’t noticed any reduction in weather helm with the larger sails, but then again I’m on a small lake in Nebraska with contrary wind conditions. The travelers do make sail shaping easier. PS I spent a long time reading your web page yesterday. Your doing a great job! Bob Noble S/V I Miss Lisa
Weather Helm and your head sail
Adding a bigger head sail on the 23 has nothing to do with weather helm. The whole problem is the mast rake not to be confused with mast bend. Two different things. The 23 came from the factory with a too short of backstay. This is causing all of your weather helm with having the mast raked to far back. Adding a backstay adjuster and letting the mast go forward will cure this problem but the backstay adjuster must include removing the wire from the trangle plate down. Also the boats came with two different rigs some had a Z-Spar mast while some had a (White) Kenyon mast. Some also had 37 inch spreaders while some had 27 inch spreader's. Adding a 150 to a wide spreader boat will help but you still will not be able to point as high as the short spreader boat. Key is to have the shorter spreader boat. Also adding T Track for a 150 you need to have it inboard next to the cabin just aft of the chainplates. Because of where the coaming start's to rise with the T Track in this postion you will be looking at about a 148 % head sail. Because you will not be able to slide the sheet car aft enough to sheet a 155 in and having a few inches to move the sheet car aft to depower the sail is needed. Ther was a comment made at one time about installing the T Track just inside the Toe Rail or on the out side of the cockpit coming where it rises up. This is way wrong and in this postion the head sail can not be trimmed to the correct angle for up wind trim. They assumed Hunter thought this was the correct place, Hunter was wrong. I even think ther is a photo of T track placement. Not where I would put it if I want to sail up wind fast. The Key to up wind pointing is having the head sail trimed inboard the more the better but to a certain point. Before we moved onto a Hunter 25.5 and now a Hunter 28.5 we raced and sailed the 23 and did pretty good with the boat, won allot of races. I have posted alot about racing the 23 and it should all be in the archives somewhere. But getting the mast in the right place will solve all your weather helm problems. Cliff
Adding a bigger head sail on the 23 has nothing to do with weather helm. The whole problem is the mast rake not to be confused with mast bend. Two different things. The 23 came from the factory with a too short of backstay. This is causing all of your weather helm with having the mast raked to far back. Adding a backstay adjuster and letting the mast go forward will cure this problem but the backstay adjuster must include removing the wire from the trangle plate down. Also the boats came with two different rigs some had a Z-Spar mast while some had a (White) Kenyon mast. Some also had 37 inch spreaders while some had 27 inch spreader's. Adding a 150 to a wide spreader boat will help but you still will not be able to point as high as the short spreader boat. Key is to have the shorter spreader boat. Also adding T Track for a 150 you need to have it inboard next to the cabin just aft of the chainplates. Because of where the coaming start's to rise with the T Track in this postion you will be looking at about a 148 % head sail. Because you will not be able to slide the sheet car aft enough to sheet a 155 in and having a few inches to move the sheet car aft to depower the sail is needed. Ther was a comment made at one time about installing the T Track just inside the Toe Rail or on the out side of the cockpit coming where it rises up. This is way wrong and in this postion the head sail can not be trimmed to the correct angle for up wind trim. They assumed Hunter thought this was the correct place, Hunter was wrong. I even think ther is a photo of T track placement. Not where I would put it if I want to sail up wind fast. The Key to up wind pointing is having the head sail trimed inboard the more the better but to a certain point. Before we moved onto a Hunter 25.5 and now a Hunter 28.5 we raced and sailed the 23 and did pretty good with the boat, won allot of races. I have posted alot about racing the 23 and it should all be in the archives somewhere. But getting the mast in the right place will solve all your weather helm problems. Cliff
150 will increase weather helm
Any sail area aft of the center of effort of the rig and hull will increase weather helm. Most 150's have substantial area aft of the CE - so they will cause weather helm if carried as winds pick up. David Lady Lillie
Any sail area aft of the center of effort of the rig and hull will increase weather helm. Most 150's have substantial area aft of the CE - so they will cause weather helm if carried as winds pick up. David Lady Lillie
Thanks for the compliment! David, I hadn't really considered that any additional sail would have ended up behind CE. I see what you mean. I'll put at least a few outings on her before ultimately deciding but it sounds like a traveler track and a 100% are in my immediate future. I've come up through racing beach catamarans and we don't mess with head sail sizing very often (beyond different sized spinnakers)! Jake
Hi Cliff and Jake
Hey Cliff, glad to see the H23 Guru is still around. How's the 28.5 treating you? Over the last couple of years, I've found that most of the weather helm on the H23 can be dialed out with mainsail trim. The H23 main is large and powerful. With the mainsheet snugged down tight for upwind work, the leech doesn't open enough and the sail becomes overpowered, leading to a lot of weather helm and heel. Conventional wisdom says look up the leech of the sail while under way. If the top batten is parallel to the boom, the leech is properly tensioned. If it's hooked to windward the leech is too tight (too much power) and if it's pointing off to leeward, it's spilling air and losing power. The problem with this approach is that a properly trimmed mainsail can overpower the boat under certain conditions. That's why we reef in heavier air. We know that after reefing the boat heels less, the helm is lighter and the boat is usually faster and easier to control, because sail area (power) is reduced. The same can be achieved with mainsail trim, except instead of reducing the mainsail area, we are reducing its efficiency. Reducing leech tension is one way to quickly depower the main. You don't even have to get up to do it! Since the mainsheet pulls down on the boom when close-hauled, easing it in the gusts and sheeting in as the boat accelerates will open and close the leech quickly. The mainsheet should not be left cleated when sailing upwind. If it's difficult to adjust under load, the mainsheet tackle should be upgraded or replaced. Increasing backstay tension will bend the mast and open the leech. A simple backstay adjuster (I posted pictures in the Photo Forum) can do this without having to modify the fixed backstay. My point is this...sometimes less is more. Don't buy a larger headsail or adjust rake until you've tried using sail trim to depower the main. These adjustments are simple, quick, easily reversible and can be made using your existing equipment. Try it first before you run out and buy stuff that you may not need. Good luck and happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Hey Cliff, glad to see the H23 Guru is still around. How's the 28.5 treating you? Over the last couple of years, I've found that most of the weather helm on the H23 can be dialed out with mainsail trim. The H23 main is large and powerful. With the mainsheet snugged down tight for upwind work, the leech doesn't open enough and the sail becomes overpowered, leading to a lot of weather helm and heel. Conventional wisdom says look up the leech of the sail while under way. If the top batten is parallel to the boom, the leech is properly tensioned. If it's hooked to windward the leech is too tight (too much power) and if it's pointing off to leeward, it's spilling air and losing power. The problem with this approach is that a properly trimmed mainsail can overpower the boat under certain conditions. That's why we reef in heavier air. We know that after reefing the boat heels less, the helm is lighter and the boat is usually faster and easier to control, because sail area (power) is reduced. The same can be achieved with mainsail trim, except instead of reducing the mainsail area, we are reducing its efficiency. Reducing leech tension is one way to quickly depower the main. You don't even have to get up to do it! Since the mainsheet pulls down on the boom when close-hauled, easing it in the gusts and sheeting in as the boat accelerates will open and close the leech quickly. The mainsheet should not be left cleated when sailing upwind. If it's difficult to adjust under load, the mainsheet tackle should be upgraded or replaced. Increasing backstay tension will bend the mast and open the leech. A simple backstay adjuster (I posted pictures in the Photo Forum) can do this without having to modify the fixed backstay. My point is this...sometimes less is more. Don't buy a larger headsail or adjust rake until you've tried using sail trim to depower the main. These adjustments are simple, quick, easily reversible and can be made using your existing equipment. Try it first before you run out and buy stuff that you may not need. Good luck and happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Yea Still Here
We are having a good time sailing the 28.5 Great Boat. We have been doing some racing but not as much as I would like. We have a few more regatta's left and hopefully will finish the season winning more then we lose. Cliff
We are having a good time sailing the 28.5 Great Boat. We have been doing some racing but not as much as I would like. We have a few more regatta's left and hopefully will finish the season winning more then we lose. Cliff
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