I recently sold a Catalina 27 and bought a Hunter 31. A salesman told me that the Hunter was a 'mainsail' driven boat, vs. a 'headsail' driven craft, such as the Catalina. Does anyone agree with this comment or agree/disagree with it? I'm having a hard time trying to understand the distinction. I've also noted the tripod mount of the Hunter mast, but other than stability, don't understand how that translates into a boat being 'driven' by one or the other sails. Thanks for your feedback.
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Not real sure about the comment either.
Terry: I am not too sure about this comment either. I will tell you that the H'31 like most Hunters carry a lot more sail for a comparable Catalina. Catalinas tend to have small rigs. This is why they have a "tall" rig. Even their tall rigs don't compare to the Hunters. We sail in the Sacramento Delta. We commonly have 15-30 kt winds. This usually means that we end up with a reef in the main (sometimes two reefs). On our boat we have a self tending jib, so we do NOT have the luxury of a roller furling jib, which would help with the balance. I am planning on installing a Spin-Tec roller furler next spring and I will have a 120-130 jib that can be furled down to about 75-80%. Just remember that you need to think about the first reef in 12-15 kts of breeze and the second on at about 18-20 kts. It is alway easier to put the reef in if you are in doubt. Much more difficult to reef as the wind picks up. PS: How is your head pump out problem coming?
Terry: I am not too sure about this comment either. I will tell you that the H'31 like most Hunters carry a lot more sail for a comparable Catalina. Catalinas tend to have small rigs. This is why they have a "tall" rig. Even their tall rigs don't compare to the Hunters. We sail in the Sacramento Delta. We commonly have 15-30 kt winds. This usually means that we end up with a reef in the main (sometimes two reefs). On our boat we have a self tending jib, so we do NOT have the luxury of a roller furling jib, which would help with the balance. I am planning on installing a Spin-Tec roller furler next spring and I will have a 120-130 jib that can be furled down to about 75-80%. Just remember that you need to think about the first reef in 12-15 kts of breeze and the second on at about 18-20 kts. It is alway easier to put the reef in if you are in doubt. Much more difficult to reef as the wind picks up. PS: How is your head pump out problem coming?
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Ray
Terry, My understanding of this comment is that
a boat such as your Catalina uses a jib that could range from 100% to 150%. Your main would have been of the standard size used on contemporary boats with standard backstay rigging. These boats gained their power from the large selection of big head sails and to my understanding the main complements the jib. Most Hunter boats less than 20 years old carry large main sails, many fully battened with large roaches. They also are rigged with backswept spreaders and no backstay. Most are set-up with jib sails that rarely exceed 105%. With this large roached main the boat is driven by this sail with the jib complmenting the main. The use of large jibs with this spreader set-up has a tendency to foul the jib on the shrouds. I'm new to sailing but I'm studing very hard. I think this answer is basically correct, but I am not good enough to explain the "center of effort" and the "center of balance" issues about these two rigs. If I blew it would someone lend a hand. Then we'll both know. Hope this helps. Ray S/V Speedy
a boat such as your Catalina uses a jib that could range from 100% to 150%. Your main would have been of the standard size used on contemporary boats with standard backstay rigging. These boats gained their power from the large selection of big head sails and to my understanding the main complements the jib. Most Hunter boats less than 20 years old carry large main sails, many fully battened with large roaches. They also are rigged with backswept spreaders and no backstay. Most are set-up with jib sails that rarely exceed 105%. With this large roached main the boat is driven by this sail with the jib complmenting the main. The use of large jibs with this spreader set-up has a tendency to foul the jib on the shrouds. I'm new to sailing but I'm studing very hard. I think this answer is basically correct, but I am not good enough to explain the "center of effort" and the "center of balance" issues about these two rigs. If I blew it would someone lend a hand. Then we'll both know. Hope this helps. Ray S/V Speedy
OK Ray!
The Hunter 31' 83-87 is NOT a fractional rig. The new boats from about 87-88 on are fractional rigs. What you are saying about the new boats is true. The larger jib does NOT do nearly as much to drive these boats (fractional rigs). A larger jib on a full rig offers a lot more power and also can over power the boat easily too.
The Hunter 31' 83-87 is NOT a fractional rig. The new boats from about 87-88 on are fractional rigs. What you are saying about the new boats is true. The larger jib does NOT do nearly as much to drive these boats (fractional rigs). A larger jib on a full rig offers a lot more power and also can over power the boat easily too.
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Doug
Missing the boat
I think an important fact to remember is that sails do different things on different points. For instance, a 150 genny with a wisker pole will be more of a driving force on a run than the main eased out to the spreader. Conversely, the jib's job on most other points is to feed the main. That is to say the jib should "funnel" wind into the main and the main would be sheeted in tighter than the headsail. In this case, the main would be doing more of the "driving". That being said, you can't say one boat is jib driven and another main. The sails are intended to work together, although our 33.5 does absolutely beautiful with either sail alone (naturally balanced with propper trim) unlike many boats that need both sails up to balance the boat and decrease weather helm. Hope this vague answer has helped in some small way. Happy sailing, Doug
I think an important fact to remember is that sails do different things on different points. For instance, a 150 genny with a wisker pole will be more of a driving force on a run than the main eased out to the spreader. Conversely, the jib's job on most other points is to feed the main. That is to say the jib should "funnel" wind into the main and the main would be sheeted in tighter than the headsail. In this case, the main would be doing more of the "driving". That being said, you can't say one boat is jib driven and another main. The sails are intended to work together, although our 33.5 does absolutely beautiful with either sail alone (naturally balanced with propper trim) unlike many boats that need both sails up to balance the boat and decrease weather helm. Hope this vague answer has helped in some small way. Happy sailing, Doug
Good point Doug.
What we need to keep in mind here is the fact that Terry DOES NOT have a fractional rig. While his boat will do fine under certain conditions with either the main or the jib, all boats sail better with both sails that are properly sized for the current wind conditions. I think the real point the salesman may have missed is that Terrys boat does NOT have a fractional rig with a large roach main. The newest Hunters without a backstay have a hugh roach on their mainsail. Terrys has very little. Keeping a Hunter 31 sailing upright is the key. And the key is to keep your sails balanced for the conditions. Now that I think about it the only real difference in his Cat 27 and the H'31 is that he has a MUCH taller rig. The Catalina would tend to sail slightly flatter in the same wind conditions and similar sail configurations just because of their smaller rigs.
What we need to keep in mind here is the fact that Terry DOES NOT have a fractional rig. While his boat will do fine under certain conditions with either the main or the jib, all boats sail better with both sails that are properly sized for the current wind conditions. I think the real point the salesman may have missed is that Terrys boat does NOT have a fractional rig with a large roach main. The newest Hunters without a backstay have a hugh roach on their mainsail. Terrys has very little. Keeping a Hunter 31 sailing upright is the key. And the key is to keep your sails balanced for the conditions. Now that I think about it the only real difference in his Cat 27 and the H'31 is that he has a MUCH taller rig. The Catalina would tend to sail slightly flatter in the same wind conditions and similar sail configurations just because of their smaller rigs.
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Bill O'Donovan
Back to the question
Aside from performance issues, the crux of Terry's question seems to be whether it's safe to run the boat with just the jib or genoa. I have heard that it isn't, then I heard that was an old wives' tale, then I was told not to shop at any malls on Halloween. On my 29.5, I only fly the jib when I'm singlehanding over 15 mph wind. I don't want to go flying off the boom while sailing alone. My worry is that jib-only is applying too much pressure on the shrouds and that the forestay will dismast and bring the mast crashing down on me. Do any engineers have an answer?
Aside from performance issues, the crux of Terry's question seems to be whether it's safe to run the boat with just the jib or genoa. I have heard that it isn't, then I heard that was an old wives' tale, then I was told not to shop at any malls on Halloween. On my 29.5, I only fly the jib when I'm singlehanding over 15 mph wind. I don't want to go flying off the boom while sailing alone. My worry is that jib-only is applying too much pressure on the shrouds and that the forestay will dismast and bring the mast crashing down on me. Do any engineers have an answer?
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Ray Bowles
Thanks guys, now I need to learn and understand
these ideas. Here is the great NE corner of Washington State a "tall rig" is a tree that has'nt been cut down and a "fractional rig" was a "tall rig" that broke in a wind storm. Ray S/V Speedy
these ideas. Here is the great NE corner of Washington State a "tall rig" is a tree that has'nt been cut down and a "fractional rig" was a "tall rig" that broke in a wind storm. Ray S/V Speedy
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Doug
To Bill
Bill, I am not an engineer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Suites last night! If you or anybody feels that sailing a boat with jib alone is risking your mast catostrophically, I would suggest either getting the standing rigging replaced, beefed up or possibly purchasing a power boat. We have sailed our 33.5 in 25 knots of wind with a 150 genny being the only canvas up. It never even occured to me that the rig was at risk. Maybe I was too busy having fun. Happy sailing. Doug
Bill, I am not an engineer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Suites last night! If you or anybody feels that sailing a boat with jib alone is risking your mast catostrophically, I would suggest either getting the standing rigging replaced, beefed up or possibly purchasing a power boat. We have sailed our 33.5 in 25 knots of wind with a 150 genny being the only canvas up. It never even occured to me that the rig was at risk. Maybe I was too busy having fun. Happy sailing. Doug
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Tim Schaaf
Headsail vs Mainsail driven
These terms refer to which sail is MORE responsible for driving the boat, and, not coincidentally, which will need to be reduced more in a blow. At one extreme would be a catboat, which has only a mainsail, and at the other would be a masthead rig with only a very high aspect, roachless, main. The Cherubini Hunters came close to the later definition. My 33 had an original mainsail of 199 square feet, while a mere 100 jib measure 288 square feet. Guess which sail had more power...and guess which sail would drive the boat better, on its own? On the other hand, the latest Hunters have large mains with big roaches, and small fractional jibs. A J-boat might be even more extreme. Reefing the main would be the recommended sail reduction, and the same jib might be flown in many different conditions. In either case, the rig should support either the main or the jib flown by itself, but it is very worthwhile to check to see that the headstay has the proper toggles, particularly if the jib is on a furler, which will increase the weight and the side loads enormously. By the way, my 33 goes better with its more recent mainsail, full battened with quite a bit more roach.
These terms refer to which sail is MORE responsible for driving the boat, and, not coincidentally, which will need to be reduced more in a blow. At one extreme would be a catboat, which has only a mainsail, and at the other would be a masthead rig with only a very high aspect, roachless, main. The Cherubini Hunters came close to the later definition. My 33 had an original mainsail of 199 square feet, while a mere 100 jib measure 288 square feet. Guess which sail had more power...and guess which sail would drive the boat better, on its own? On the other hand, the latest Hunters have large mains with big roaches, and small fractional jibs. A J-boat might be even more extreme. Reefing the main would be the recommended sail reduction, and the same jib might be flown in many different conditions. In either case, the rig should support either the main or the jib flown by itself, but it is very worthwhile to check to see that the headstay has the proper toggles, particularly if the jib is on a furler, which will increase the weight and the side loads enormously. By the way, my 33 goes better with its more recent mainsail, full battened with quite a bit more roach.
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