Head/stay sail input requested

Seattle Scott · Aug 11, 2009

you'll need running backstays. there should be a tangs or fitting or just holes on each side of the mast where the staysaild halyard enters the mast above the spreaders.you run stays the same size as the upper and lower stays to about 4 feet above the deck and then attach these to 3 to 1 blocks terminating in snap shackes at the toe rail on each side.

the staysail boom has a forward end fiting that "clamps" around the inner forestay with a pendant or short (maybe 10 inch) wire cable that keeps the boom from rising completly with the sail/halyard. It may be hard to find this fitting.

I can try to take some pics this weekend. With a couple of exceptions, all of use run a hanked on staysail.

I would get your jiib sorted out first and work on the staysail next. i have a jib/genoa with high cut clew (Yankee they call it) that overlaps the mast a little, that I never use, preferring the smaller jib. If you want this larger jib, let me know and I will measure and give you a price. It is "full cut" meaning works best more than 45 egrees off the wind. It is set up for roller furling.

Ed Schenck · Aug 11, 2009

Really?! No furler for the yankee(jib)? I agree with Scott that the foresail should be the first order of business. I would sell the cats, dogs, and/or the mother-in-law to get a furler on there. It is going to be very difficult to find a sail that size and shape with hanks. I suppose you could buy a sail like Scott's and have a loft install hanks. Then you double the effort of sailing as I was reminded today when I sailed my one-design.

I see a block on your staysail traveler with a line coming down and through from somewhere above. What is that?

If it were my boat I think I would either 1) buy a jib instead of a yankee and sail it as a sloop or 2) rig a staysail without a boom. Do you have the staysail stay? Finding the necessary hardware could be a problem. You need to spend some time looking at the rig and taking pictures. It is very hard to describe.

Seattle Scott · Aug 12, 2009

Here is a pic of the forward end of the staysail boom

http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21671&d=1234718938

If this is any help

jcherubini · Aug 12, 2009

ybrad's inner forestay... re Ed S

Ed, what are the diameters of your stay and shroud wires? I would reckon the mains are all 5/16, the inner forestay and running backs are 1/4", and the clevis pins are 5/8" and 1/2" respectively. I would rig the running backs with 7/16" XLS at 4:1, this assuming the mainsheet, et al., are all 1/2" cordage. These are my guesses and I'll defer to anyone with a properly-rigged boat who will use calibers and get back to us all here.

One trick with getting running backs right is to leave the wire segment short enough to be able to swing them forward against the lower aft shrouds to get them out of the way and still have enough between the blocks to take them up tight, so that would mean maybe 3 ft off the deck in the relaxed position... but then to have the wire segment terminate high enough to avoid hitting your head if it breaks free, so that would be about 6'6" off the deck in the relaxed position; and then you've got to be able to reach the bottom of the wire end from the deck so it can't be too high-- and the more rope segment you have the less stiff it is... so make a decision of stiffness vs safety and I won't say more here.

A strong u-bolt (they come in 5/16" with like 7,000-lb ratings) mounted and well-bedded through the toerail with a backing plate under the deck is much better than just clipping it to the aluminum toerail track. The stock boat may already have one in place each side. My H-25 has this for the two legs of the split backstay. The adjuster tackle, however, goes to the toerail.

Be sure to verify that your foredeck mounting plate is well-seated as well. It should NOT be through any balsa core but through solid glass with adequate support below.

The staysail boom can be anything-- I would not use Rig-Rite for sheer cost considerations; they are in New England so shipping to Florida would be out-of-the-ballpark prohibitive (guess? --maybe $400). Find a sparmakers nearer to you; or, better, find a used part. I would say that a spar section of about 2-1/2" wide and 4" high should be adequate (I shall defer to Ed S on this too). Calculate the length needed including the ends, such as if you want internal outhaul tackle, etc. A standard length of this size of extrusion might be about 12-13 feet; that might be adequate too. DAMCO (Dwyer Aluminum Mast Co) in CT are my favorite for spar fittings.

I am no fan of traveller systems that terminate, in any way, so that the traveler cannot swing freely for its full width of track on a jibe. What would be the point then, if after all that tackle on the traveller car you just ran one leg to the deck next to it? The 4:1 tackle (05-series Schaefer blocks) should run up under the boom to the forward end, then run aft along the deck, on the opposite side from the furling line, and be tailed to a winch in the cockpit. The traveler control lines can come aft along the cabintop to the cockpit too. This makes this sail both truly 'self-tending' and able to be trimmed by the cockpit crew. Anything else, to me, makes no sense.

Your other option is to leave the inner jib loose-footed and just use an 'A-frame' single-line sheetline arrangement leading aft along the cabintop. This is simpler than anything else, even when coming about-- just slack it before and take it back up afterwards-- but is a little more work than a traveler/club-footed arrangement, it's too easy to locate the blocks for the sheetline incorrectly on the cabintop, and there's no chance of really horsing down on it in a blow which is one of the best things an inner staysail is good for.

I get what Ed says about his use of staysail vs Yankee but I would also consider a furler on the little jib too. We have done this on Cherubini 44s. Just be sure to have a topping lift (that goes up near the halyard exit block), for when you roll up the sail on the furler the boom will come crashing down on your foredeck hatch (you'd be surprised how many forget about this).

Talking with a friendly neighborhood sailmaker is always good. These are valuable people to know anyway.

We're all excited to hear of your progress, ybrad. Stay in touch.

Ed Schenck · Aug 12, 2009

Not sure I followed all of that JC, I will have to reread. My H37C is 1979 factory rigged. The forestay is the solid-rod Hyde Streamstay furler. It is matched on the stern with a 9/32" backstay. Later models had a 9/32" forestay. The shrouds and running stays are all 1/4". Most owners who have rerigged have upgraded the 1/4" shrouds to 9/32". To go larger would require drilling the chainplates for a larger clevis pin thus weakening the chainplate.

The running stays terminate about four feet above the deck if aligned with the aft lowers. They are lightly rigged(1/4" Sta-Set) with one inch blocks at 3:1 and snap shackles. Normally I keep mine about two feet aft of the shrouds. If I remember I will move the windward stay aft an amount relative to the forces. But only when running.

sandpiper10471 · Aug 17, 2009

Really Ed - you only use the running backs while running? I thought the purpose was to support the mast at the hounds where the inner stay joins the mast to keep the mast in column against the pressures of the sail and also keep the staysail luff straighter. By my thinking they are most needed upwind, less needed downwind. But I often think that with the low tight rig of the 37C and the substantial mast section that perhaps the runners are only really needed in a huge blow. Any other ideas on this?

And back to ybrad - I really like the club footed staysail with traveller. It is a sail I always hoist no matter what the weather. It is small enough and the foredeck large and stable enough that it is not necessary install furling or to bring traveller lines back to the cockpit.
(The Cherubini 44 - an amazingly beautiful vessel - has a MUCH larger staysail.) The self tacking aspect is wonderful.

I need to replace my sails (original and blown out), starting with the staysail, and am thinking that the 37C isn't really an upwind boat. To improve performance, a bit more slot between staysail and main would be nice but an overlap suggests deep sixing the boom. Not an option for me. Why not a staysail with full roach instead of the hollow cut leach and full battens, designed to just clear the mast. More area for my favourite sail and more efficient slot effect. Additionally, has anybody tried a vang or a Hoyte boom keep this sail from twisting off so much? Certainly proper traveller placement has a big effect but once past a close reach a lot of power and trim is lost.

Jim Legere · Aug 18, 2009

I agree with Sandpiper about the boomed staysail - very handy and I almost always hoist it. The thing I like is when the wind gets up above twenty knots, I furl the Yankee as my first reef and, voila, I have a self tacking boat. I also had a reef installed on the staysail - never used it yet but if things get really hairy I would be under triple reefed main and reefed staysail - should be good for 40 knots+ The only downside to the boomed staysail is that it slats around when on a run - bit dangerous up on the foredeck. I usually rig a preventer line if I am going to be using the staysail on a run for extended periods. Usually I just drop it. Ed is right about the runners - you do need them to keep the mast from pumping when off the wind in a blow. Upwind isn't usually an issue unless in very big seas cause the mainsail is providing some mast support. But I don't rig the runners unless its blowing a gale. All in all, after decades of sailing sloop rigs, I am a convert to the cutter rig like the H-37C has.

Ed Schenck · Aug 18, 2009

Sandp... is right, a Hoyt boom with a really good staysail would be perfect. The slot problem with an old blown out sail is another reason I seldom use mine. I suppose if I reefed when I should I would also roll up the yankee and run with the staysail. Like the first day out the Beaufort inlet and heading southwest. Nice northeast breeze begged for a poled out yankee with the main winged. Lots of fun except the wind built all day long making it dangerous to go on deck. At 0100 I had to get the crew up to steer while I tried to get the pole down. Now it was blowin' over 25, surfin' off the waves at 9+, and the vang was already history after the preventer let go. But who wants to reef early when you're making 8+?

Paul J. Rusyniak · Aug 18, 2009

Hi...

I'm jumping in here only after seeing the reference to the Hoyt Jib Boom, which we have on our Alerion Express 28.

It's absolutely great for single handing!!!

Obviously, it'll only support a jib of less than 100%.

We also have a 135% for our boat and have furled and re-sheeted it to the boom when the wind really kicked up. It was a long way from pretty but very functional.

A caution - we don't have the light air extender/preventer on ours, making it impossible to sail wung out in less than 12kts true.

Paul

Ed Schenck · Aug 18, 2009

Paul's a lucky guy, an Alerion and self-tacking. It is not one of the commandents is it, to not covet another's boat?

Paul J. Rusyniak · Aug 18, 2009

Ed...
No intent to hijack this thread, but had to say YES and THANKS!!!
And, coveting is allowed, but only if you bring the checkbook!!!
Paul

Ed Schenck · Aug 18, 2009

H37C owners, how hard. . . .

could it be to construct a Hoyt-like boom? What kind of patent infringement could we go to jail for? Imagine a furling staysail on a fixed boom! Self-tacking, no vang, good shape.

sandpiper10471 · Aug 18, 2009

Paul, please explain the light air extender for the Hoyte boom. I am assuming it is a telescoping boom similar in concept to a lot of whisker poles. Come to think of it, why not a staysail on a furler with a telescoping Hoyte boom. Upwind the sail unfurls to the regular length of the club foot. Off the wind, or on long boards upwind, the boom extends and the sail is unfurled completely. Overlap and slot! WOW! a million dollar idea? Forget the full batten and roach idea. This is WAY better. This is such a wonderful forum. Thanks everyone.

Ed Schenck · Aug 19, 2009

What a cool concept, an extension on the end of the Hoyt boom. Then what happens with the uncontrolled gybe? Two booms come a flyin' but one crashes into the mast? Need a preventer? How about a brake under the deck on the end of the Hoyt boom? I am sure it has been done, I have never had an original idea.

Paul J. Rusyniak · Aug 19, 2009

sandpiper10471 said:
Paul, please explain the light air extender for the Hoyte boom. I am assuming it is a telescoping boom similar in concept to a lot of whisker poles. Come to think of it, why not a staysail on a furler with a telescoping Hoyte boom. Upwind the sail unfurls to the regular length of the club foot. Off the wind, or on long boards upwind, the boom extends and the sail is unfurled completely. Overlap and slot! WOW! a million dollar idea? Forget the full batten and roach idea. This is WAY better. This is such a wonderful forum. Thanks everyone.

I have pictures of it but I'm not sure I'm allowed to post them here as I didn't take them.

Anyway, it consists of one or two pistons, sort of what you'd see on a car trunk or hatchback. They're mounted BELOW the deck, running horizontally fore and aft.

One end is connected to the aft face of the part of the Hoyt Boom that extends through the deck. The other end is attached to a partial bulkhead aft.

This contraption counteracts the boom's tendency to come-to-rest amid ship; it rotates the boom to one side or the other.

Using the word "extender" is probably confusing, but that's what it's called. It does extend the boom out to one side or the other, but not in the telescoping way you're envisioning.

Was this of any help?
Paul

Paul J. Rusyniak · Aug 19, 2009

Ed Schenck said:
What a cool concept, an extension on the end of the Hoyt boom. Then what happens with the uncontrolled gybe? Two booms come a flyin' but one crashes into the mast? Need a preventer? How about a brake under the deck on the end of the Hoyt boom? I am sure it has been done, I have never had an original idea.

Ed, as you'll see above, the extender now available is nothing like what you're talking about.

BUT

don't sell yourself short!!! I'm not sure if your idea is original or not, but it certainly is intriguing!!! Think of this - - - the rotating section of the jib boom is fitted with a sensor. As the end of the boom rotates towards the mast, the extension telescopes in; as the boom end moves away from the mast, the end telescopes back out.

By Jove, I think you've got it!!!

Paul

Ed Schenck · Aug 19, 2009

Now we have it Paul, a 150 genny on a self-tacking Hoyt-like boom. It has a clutch so that it moves freely but under control so as to give the extender time to retract. Should we motorize the furler to roll the jib in as the we retract the boom? I would still bet that this has been done somewhere.

Paul J. Rusyniak · Aug 20, 2009

Ed Schenck said:
Now we have it Paul, a 150 genny on a self-tacking Hoyt-like boom. It has a clutch so that it moves freely but under control so as to give the extender time to retract. Should we motorize the furler to roll the jib in as the we retract the boom? I would still bet that this has been done somewhere.

K I S S !!!
I'll let you know where to send my share of the royalty check.
Paul

sandpiper10471 · Aug 20, 2009

Paul - that was a great description re extension. I think I understand and you are right, it isn't close to my assumption, which I happen to think is innovative and excellent. I love it when the engineers on site start fantasizing and brain storming. I also hadn't realized there were downsides to the Hoyte. Any others?

Head/stay sail input requested

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