I recently replaced the joker valve, and the outlet connector and hose adapter facets are bowed toward each other such that they touch at the bolt holes, and too little or too much torque on the nuts results in a less than tight seal. I ordered a new hose outlet adapter, but upon closer inspection it seems the more bowed part might be the PHII housing (see images). Is this something that can be somehow addressed/fixed? I’d rather future joker valve replacements can be done with a little more confidence and less anxiety about the fit sealing properly.
Head - Raritan PHII outlet connector bowed
- Thread starter skunther
- Start date
I don't think your flexure is any different than mine when I installed my 90° adapter five years ago when installing the head :
No leakage to date.
It's the pump cylinder discharge flange "dog ears" that are bending because they are thinner than the other flange's "dog ears." As far as the sealing surfaces bending, not gonna happen because they are the strongest part of the assembly due to their attached piping while the dog ears themselves have no reinforcement against bending.
Have you seen leakage from this seal area when the flanges are tightened until the ears touch ?
No leakage to date.
It's the pump cylinder discharge flange "dog ears" that are bending because they are thinner than the other flange's "dog ears." As far as the sealing surfaces bending, not gonna happen because they are the strongest part of the assembly due to their attached piping while the dog ears themselves have no reinforcement against bending.
Have you seen leakage from this seal area when the flanges are tightened until the ears touch ?
I bought a new ($$$) PH2 toilet a couple seasons ago, and found that getting a complete seal around that "flexible" plastic set of flange parts was really difficult. A friend of mine suggested using some shaped ss washers to pull the surfaces together totally-flat and that worked.
My previous and rather tired-out old 90's PH2 did not have this warped-plastic problem, so I surmise that the company made a material change in their casting process.
A further problem is that their current (since several years ago) joker valve lets small amounts of water move back into the bowl, so we have to shut off the thru-hull after use. Having had decades of good service with this company, this has really bummed me out.
Regarding the drawing in reply 2, yes, that's the problem area.
Now... if someone somewhere could source a working fully sealing joker valve, please!.
(This is Not an area of our boat that I enjoy working on!)
And to add insult to injury, as the saying goes, a visit to the company web site no longer even shows or mentions this decades-long product at all. Mysteriously, one of their main retailers in Seattle does (!) show this model, for sale now.
Oh, and in case someone wonders if all I do is complain, the other reason to replace the toilet was to convert to their elongated "household" bowl. Great Change, and that upgrade IS recommended, even with having to relocate the base about an inch further out from the bulkhead. And change the opening in the head counter front for the hose passage. And slightly reroute the hose traffic under that counter... And...
Like all projects, one initial goal leads to several unanticipated further projects!
My previous and rather tired-out old 90's PH2 did not have this warped-plastic problem, so I surmise that the company made a material change in their casting process.
A further problem is that their current (since several years ago) joker valve lets small amounts of water move back into the bowl, so we have to shut off the thru-hull after use. Having had decades of good service with this company, this has really bummed me out.
Regarding the drawing in reply 2, yes, that's the problem area.
Now... if someone somewhere could source a working fully sealing joker valve, please!.
(This is Not an area of our boat that I enjoy working on!)
And to add insult to injury, as the saying goes, a visit to the company web site no longer even shows or mentions this decades-long product at all. Mysteriously, one of their main retailers in Seattle does (!) show this model, for sale now.
Oh, and in case someone wonders if all I do is complain, the other reason to replace the toilet was to convert to their elongated "household" bowl. Great Change, and that upgrade IS recommended, even with having to relocate the base about an inch further out from the bulkhead. And change the opening in the head counter front for the hose passage. And slightly reroute the hose traffic under that counter... And...
Like all projects, one initial goal leads to several unanticipated further projects!
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Yes, this seal is where I’ve noticed leaking when over tightened. When I back them off slightly to the magic torque, the leaking stops.
Glad to hear I’m not the only one with this problem.I bought a new ($$$) PH2 toilet a couple seasons ago, and found that getting a complete seal around that "flexible" plastic set of flange parts was really difficult. A friend of mine suggested using some shaped ss washers to pull the surfaces together totally-flat and that worked.
My previous and rather tired-out old 90's PH2 did not have this warped-plastic problem, so I surmise that the company made a material change in their casting process.
A further problem is that their current (since several years ago) joker valve lets small amounts of water move back into the bowl, so we have to shut off the thru-hull after use. Having had decades of good service with this company, this has really bummed me out.
Regarding the drawing in reply 2, yes, that's the problem area.
Now... if someone somewhere could source a working fully sealing joker valve, please!.
(This is Not an area of our boat that I enjoy working on!)
And to add insult to injury, as the saying goes, a visit to the company web site no longer even shows or mentions this decades-long product at all. Mysteriously, one of their main retailers in Seattle does (!) show this model, for sale now.
Oh, and in case someone wonders if all I do is complain, the other reason to replace the toilet was to convert to their elongated "household" bowl. Great Change, and that upgrade IS recommended, even with having to relocate the base about an inch further out from the bulkhead. And change the opening in the head counter front for the hose passage. And slightly reroute the hose traffic under that counter... And...
Like all projects, one initial goal leads to several unanticipated further projects!
I don’t quite understand your fix with the shaper SS washers. Can you elaborate?
The latest round of joker valves do not hold up. They get soft and don't fully seal and get worse over time.
Maybe @Peggie Hall HeadMistress can mention our concern to her friends at Raritan this week at the boat show.
A major improvement. A standard bowl can be special ordered from Raritan that bolts on to the base. No need to buy the whole toilet.
Maybe @Peggie Hall HeadMistress can mention our concern to her friends at Raritan this week at the boat show.
Well, I certainly won't be changing out my joker valve any time soon. Not that I ever did, but this guarantees I never will seeing as my 2019 joker valve continues to perform perfectly as a gasket between the two flanges.
If @Peggie Hall HeadMistress could check with Raritan on this that would be great. I have reached out directly to Raritan’s tech support via email with no response.
I stopped at the Raritan booth at Annapolis Boatshow and mentioned it to one of the reps who was not aware of any difficulties with the joker valve. However, in order to improve efficiency they did change there manufacturing process for the pumps. Whether or not that might be a factor was left unsaid.
While there, Peggy and I had a nice conversation. We have chatted in the past on the phone but never in person. For 83 years old, she is still pretty sharp and her sales pitch is as good as ever.
This is the thing about many plastic parts. You can't torque the fasteners like you would a metal part. The fasteners tend to be oversized to increase bearing surface, and that misleads us. Just barely snug is typically the answer. Torque recommendations are sometimes in the manuals.
I had a the same problem when I installed a new PHII a few years ago. If I tighten the fitting too much, it leaks. But back it off a bit and it's ok (ish). The problem was that I changed the hose to the very expensive (and very stiff) white hose whose name I can't recall at the moment*, so it was hard to get the darned thing to bend at the angle needed without tightening it fully. I suspect that now that the hose has had time to relax and take a bit of a set, it's easier now to get away with a bit looser connection on the 90 degree fitting.
I also haven't replaced the joker valve yet, because... as you say, it's not a thing you wake up in the morning yearning to do.
* it was Raritan Saniflex
I also haven't replaced the joker valve yet, because... as you say, it's not a thing you wake up in the morning yearning to do.
* it was Raritan Saniflex
As promised I did take some photos of the fitting enclosing the Joker Valve. Note that while there is now no leakage, the one side towards the pump still deforms slightly. I had a spare plastic "collar" to even out the pressure on the other side, and then cut away a couple extra thick ss washers to spread the load and try to better clamp the inside part.
Disclaimer: this is probably not the best possible solution, but merely one that has worked for me.
Disclaimer: this is probably not the best possible solution, but merely one that has worked for me.
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Not to disagree too strongly with you but I'm afraid all you're seeing is the bending of the pump flange dog ear that is bending due to its lesser thickness. The sealing area of the flange (in which the joker's edge acts as a gasket) is not flexing due to the induced reinforcement of the pipe as mentioned in post #2.
HOWEVER
Whatever stops the leak trumps theory every time.
PS. I'm still not messing with those two flanges and a new joker valve until I'm in the most dire of straits, or worse if possible.
Maybe something like this.
Interesting. Thanks for providing those. It seems like this is a pretty established issue. I don’t really wanna have to buy an entire new pump just to have the same problem. It does seem like Raritan should offer a solution to this issue that they seem to have created by changing materials used in manufacturer of these units.As promised I did take some photos of the fitting enclosing the Joker Valve. Note that while there is now no leakage, the one side towards the pump still deforms slightly. I had a spare plastic "collar" to even out the pressure on the other side, and then cut away a couple extra thick ss washers to spread the load and try to better clamp the inside part.
Disclaimer: this is probably not the best possible solution, but merely one that has worked for me.
You may be right, you may not be. All I can say is my experience is that when I tighten those bolts another half turn, there is a leak. When I loosen them a half turn, there is a leak. There is a sweet spot in torque at which the joint does not leak. This doesn’t seem like it was an issue in previous models due to the different material materials being used in the pump housing, from what I can gather from this thread. I would love to see a response from Raritan on this. I have followed up with him twice on my email query and have yet to receive a response from them.
Something which still bears a look-see .................
.
I think the extra thick washer just pivots on the nut and does little to change the bending moment. It would need to be either a wrap-around construction or welded to the nut (or simpler, a disk of 3/8" steel that is threaded). Not projects for the average boat owner shop, but easy with a full shop.As promised I did take some photos of the fitting enclosing the Joker Valve. Note that while there is now no leakage, the one side towards the pump still deforms slightly. I had a spare plastic "collar" to even out the pressure on the other side, and then cut away a couple extra thick ss washers to spread the load and try to better clamp the inside part.
Disclaimer: this is probably not the best possible solution, but merely one that has worked for me.
IME, the correct torque stopped the leak. But in industry I have resorted to both wrap-around steel flange toppers and thick threaded steel disks.
It might worth considering that Raritan may have (inadvertently) caused this problem by changing the spec on their joker valve by using a harder material for the flange "gasket" part that gets squeezed down. Our older Raritan PH2 models did not have this problem, and I sort of recall that the whole flange tightened down flat. Possibly, Perhaps,